Omar Khadr's Sister on Hunger Strike

[White Doors]

I don't think my line of reasoning is unreasonable. Following my line of reasoning, I would not have been the cause of any of the incidents listed in post #94 of this thread. The downside of my line of reasoning is that I would definately have been involved in the incidents listed in post #95.

My line of reasoning, no matter how disagreable to you, is something. Whereas, on the other hand, you have yet to produce any line of reasoning. So I'm one up on you.

Realism trumps wishful idealism.

All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

You are not only wanting us to do nothing, you seem to be saying that the Taliban aren't such bad guys afterall.

It's mind numbingly shallow of you to think that we should pull out and leave the innocents of Afghanistan to the will of the Taliban. How do you reconcile this with what one would assume is your backing of feminism?

[Peter F]

Realism trumps wishful idealism.

All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

You are not only wanting us to do nothing, you seem to be saying that the Taliban aren't such bad guys afterall.

It's mind numbingly shallow of you to think that we should pull out and leave the innocents of Afghanistan to the will of the Taliban. How do you reconcile this with what one would assume is your backing of feminism?

I am wanting us to do nothing? I'm saying the Taliban arent such bad guys afterall? I think we should pull out and leave the innocents of Afghanistan to the will of the Taliban? How shall I reconcile this with my assumed (you're assumption is correct by the way) backing of feminism?

Where the hell is all this coming from?

[White Doors]

I am wanting us to do nothing? I'm saying the Taliban arent such bad guys afterall? I think we should pull out and leave the innocents of Afghanistan to the will of the Taliban? How shall I reconcile this with my assumed (you're assumption is correct by the way) backing of feminism?

Where the hell is all this coming from?

If it is inaccurate, feel free to clarify.

I watch what you post.

[Peter F]

If it is inaccurate, feel free to clarify.

I watch what you post.

Ok.

Civilian casualties are to be avoided, even at the cost of ISAF forces lives and even if the Taliban take advantage of that wussy attitude - as they most certainly would.

Canada should never have taken on the task it did in Afghanistan.

The Canadian Armed Forces cannot pull out now even if we wanted to and even if, in some fantasy world, the NDP or BQ form the government of this country. We are stuck until 2011.

People think of themselves as the 'Best of the Best' - even when they're not.

Child soldiers should not be treated as criminals even if they are. They should not be put on trial for terrorism even if they are. They should not be charged with War Crimes even if they did it. Child soldiers get a free pass.

Omar Khadr may or may not be considered a child-soldier. If so then see above; If not then see below.

Omar Khadr may or may not have killed an American SSF soldier in a gun-battle. There is a panel of US Forces officers that will determine the answer to that question. No one on this board has any-fuckin-clue what happened or did not happen in battle where Omar Khadr was captured - not even White Doors (if you can beleive it).

Omar Khadr is as much responsible for his presence in Afghanistan as I was for my presence at Lake Louise when my parents took me there at the age of 12. Had I have been left in Banff National Park at that time, I would have been as responible for my parents choice of my guardian/s as Omar Khadr was for his parents choice of guardians when his parents actually did leave him there.

Omar Khadr, even if trained in the ways of terrorism, a very small potatoe at worst.

The Taliban is an organization of Radical - Fundimentalist - Muslims. Some of them are right bastard scum. Some are not. Some are terrororism is wonderful stuff. Some do not.

Terrorism is baaaaad. Terrorism is very very baaaaaad. Terrorism is ...well...terrible. I condemn terrorism. I despise terrorism. I think terrorists are the scum of the earth. No matter the motivation of the terrorist, the means of the terrorist, wether are a suicidal terrorist or one who gets others to do the deeds for him/her: All terrorists are scum.

Feminism is and has been a great progressive movement. Our world would be much more oppresive with out it. Hurrah for feminism. May we have more of it.

The Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are doing the very best they can with the limited resources they have.

Despite what you like to think I like to think, I do not think they :Dlove killing civilians. I actually think - believe it or not you-ignorant-fuck, that they are doing thier utmost to avoid them!

Edited October 20, 2008 by Peter F

[Army Guy]

To that, one can ask one simple question: how many innocent civilians were dying there before and after we came in? And consequently, do we have anything to do with it?

I would of hoped you would have already known that answer, but it is becoming clearer that you did'nt really do any research on this topic....I mean help me out here are you suggesting that life for the Avg Afganis was better under the Taliban rule ?

but hey, if you think you can conduct military operations in this enviroment, and do a better job, then i would gladly step down, and you can have my seat on this wonderful adventure....

Good intentions (even if they are genuinly good) just aren't enough, and very often, as everybody supposed to know, pave road to hell.

I wish it was all about good intentions, and handing out teddy bears, and candy....as most Canadians could relate to this....but it's not .....it's about Combat and hunting down scumbags that have commited serious crimes agains't humanity, and in some cases on par with those committed by NAZI's in WW II.... These scumbags are commited to thier cause, which is to forcefully hold the majority of the Afgan population firmly under thier thumbs...you see without the majority to abuse they have no cause, no reason to exist...

But after 30 years of War, the majority of Canadians don't think they deserve peace, that they can handle peace, they are not smart enough for peace, I think if they spent one day in thier shoes, or just talked to them for 5 minutes, you'd see they're just like you and me....and deserve alot better than what they're getting now....

But right now it is our soldiers that are doing all the lifting over here, And yes we are human, trying to work in an impossable enviroment, you see we are at war, and while we try everything we possiable can to avoid cas on all sides ...Murphy's law is forever present, mistakes happen and the loss of life is sometimes not avoidable....And like i've said before if you can think of a better solution i'm sure our government is all ears...i know i'am all ears....but until i see your sunny face over here and your chewing the same ground i am....don't judge me or my comrads intentions, or motives for being here....were giving you 150% of everything we have....what are you giving....

[Army Guy]

The fact is Canada did not send the Armed Forces to Afghanistan to kill civilians. That is to be avoided if at all possible.

You are correct, but they stop being civilians once they become a threat. such as our young boy with the Explosive vest.

But logically speaking, to my mind, if I were soldier in afghanistan, and given a far more realistic situation than that provided by Betsy, If I cannot identify a potential target as a civilian, yet that target can possibly be a threat; Should I shoot now or wait for the situation to clarify at the risk of my own safety?

Actually the situation is very real, and i posted it earlier, and it has happen to me....and in those brief seconds you have to think, i ran out of options, they're was 8 Canadian soldiers in our op, most were sleeping without thier vests on, behind them was a market full of people....

i was in the wrong place at the wrong time, MY Sgt Major whom was screaming at one of my peers to shoot, was in tears, and hestating....like we all were, as we all have kids....and i have an 9 year son.....3 off us decided to take the shot at the same time, so that little boys face did not haunt just one person, That boy was only 75 feet from our postion, after he was felled, the boys handler detonated him, injuring over 20 people....our actions saved lives....atleast thats what i tell myself....

[Peter F]

You are correct, but they stop being civilians once they become a threat. such as our young boy with the Explosive vest.

Actually the situation is very real, and i posted it earlier, and it has happen to me....and in those brief seconds you have to think, i ran out of options, they're was 8 Canadian soldiers in our op, most were sleeping without thier vests on, behind them was a market full of people....

i was in the wrong place at the wrong time, MY Sgt Major whom was screaming at one of my peers to shoot, was in tears, and hestating....like we all were, as we all have kids....and i have an 9 year son.....3 off us decided to take the shot at the same time, so that little boys face did not haunt just one person, That boy was only 75 feet from our postion, after he was felled, the boys handler detonated him, injuring over 20 people....our actions saved lives....atleast thats what i tell myself....

I speak now to you personally, Army Guy, and not to White Doors who can kiss my royal red-marxist ass...

I know I am sitting in my Lazyboy in my airconditioned home sipping my scotch pronouncing on what I would do if I were in such and such situation. I know it carries zero weight.

I do not claim to be the 'better man'; I am not White Doors and do not claim that what I think is the proper way for everyone else to think.

You act as your concience requires you to.

So will I. The honest truth is...in the unpleasant situation you described - I would be dead.

Being a peacnik is not without cost.

[Army Guy]

Peter:

I don't know why I even posted that situation in the first place, it's the first time I even mentioned it since it happened. and on a public forum , well it was just plain stupid, I guess I was getting frustrated trying to make my point ....it did nothing to support my argument.

I'm glad your passionate about your believes, but like you I'm very passionate about my job, being able to help those in need is why I'm here....it is why I became a soldier. I came to the conclusion along time ago, that war sucks, and conflict resolves very little...but in today's world there are people that thrive on bringing grieve to others...someone has to stand up for the little guy, and in doing so sometimes we are forced into doing things that are not highlights of ones life.

There is a position for everyone in this world, including peace niks....it ensures that all the checks and balances are maintained....and while I may not agree with you on many issues, I do appreciate your comments.

[White Doors]

Ok.

Civilian casualties are to be avoided, even at the cost of ISAF forces lives and even if the Taliban take advantage of that wussy attitude - as they most certainly would.

Canada should never have taken on the task it did in Afghanistan.

The Canadian Armed Forces cannot pull out now even if we wanted to and even if, in some fantasy world, the NDP or BQ form the government of this country. We are stuck until 2011.

People think of themselves as the 'Best of the Best' - even when they're not.

Child soldiers should not be treated as criminals even if they are. They should not be put on trial for terrorism even if they are. They should not be charged with War Crimes even if they did it. Child soldiers get a free pass.

Omar Khadr may or may not be considered a child-soldier. If so then see above; If not then see below.

Omar Khadr may or may not have killed an American SSF soldier in a gun-battle. There is a panel of US Forces officers that will determine the answer to that question. No one on this board has any-fuckin-clue what happened or did not happen in battle where Omar Khadr was captured - not even White Doors (if you can beleive it).

Omar Khadr is as much responsible for his presence in Afghanistan as I was for my presence at Lake Louise when my parents took me there at the age of 12. Had I have been left in Banff National Park at that time, I would have been as responible for my parents choice of my guardian/s as Omar Khadr was for his parents choice of guardians when his parents actually did leave him there.

Omar Khadr, even if trained in the ways of terrorism, a very small potatoe at worst.

The Taliban is an organization of Radical - Fundimentalist - Muslims. Some of them are right bastard scum. Some are not. Some are terrororism is wonderful stuff. Some do not.

Terrorism is baaaaad. Terrorism is very very baaaaaad. Terrorism is ...well...terrible. I condemn terrorism. I despise terrorism. I think terrorists are the scum of the earth. No matter the motivation of the terrorist, the means of the terrorist, wether are a suicidal terrorist or one who gets others to do the deeds for him/her: All terrorists are scum.

Feminism is and has been a great progressive movement. Our world would be much more oppresive with out it. Hurrah for feminism. May we have more of it.

The Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are doing the very best they can with the limited resources they have.

Despite what you like to think I like to think, I do not think they :Dlove killing civilians. I actually think - believe it or not you-ignorant-fuck, that they are doing thier utmost to avoid them!

There, that's better. I'm glad you could clarify that in view of the fact that we have Canadian soldiers who post on this forum. You have done them a service. Just mind your language.

meanwhile Omar will be tried where he should be - in Guantanamo, by the US government, for his alleged actions against a US Soldier while being an illegal combatant which means that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to him.

Murderers at the age of 15 do not get a free pass, not even in Canada and certainly not in the US.

And if found guilty, that is all he is - a murderer.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm really glad that Peter and his ilk are at a vast minority in this country. I hope he hasn't procreated and poisoned his children with such traitorous values, it's sickening.

He is only able to enjoy that drink in his house because of the sacrifices made by Canadian soldiers, that is fact.

It's unfortunate that he doesn't see value for people dying for him to be able to enjoy his life.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Peter F]

I'm really glad that Peter and his ilk are at a vast minority in this country. I hope he hasn't procreated and poisoned his children with such traitorous values, it's sickening.

He is only able to enjoy that drink in his house because of the sacrifices made by Canadian soldiers, that is fact.

It's unfortunate that he doesn't .

Too late! Two children;All growed up...wich is more than can be said for you, by the sound of it.

Nobody die's for me. I do my own dying. .. I find your suggestion that others should die for me as tremendously egotistical.

I am not worthy of thier deaths. and neither are you.

[myata]

So you feel Canadian Forces are over there just killing civilians?

They are up to no good at all?

Why does it matter, if civilians dying is the end result of it? We already know that everything can (and will, at need) be rationalized. Taleban in all likelihood, has one of their own. In the end, wouldn't it only be a matter of preference, belief, ideology, which one (rationalization) one accepts as truth?

I mean, if somebody was truly peaceful, non violent and yada, as they claim to be, wouldn't it also show in the act, the result, rather than verbal justifications?

[White Doors]

Why does it matter, if civilians dying is the end result of it? We already know that everything can (and will, at need) be rationalized. Taleban in all likelihood, has one of their own. In the end, wouldn't it only be a matter of preference, belief, ideology, which one (rationalization) one accepts as truth?

I mean, if somebody was truly peaceful, non violent and yada, as they claim to be, wouldn't it also show in the act, the result, rather than verbal justifications?

So in your mind Taliban = Canadian Soldiers on your moral compass.

You just view the Canucks as having a better PR machine?

That about it?

very deep!

[myata]

So in your mind Taliban = Canadian Soldiers on your moral compass.

You just view the Canucks as having a better PR machine?

I'm just asking a question: why does a justification matter, when the result is more or less the same?

[Army Guy]

myata: Yes dead is dead , that is what your saying and the events leading up to that death don't matter...the result is the same, regardless of intention, or circumstances....

Do you think someone who kills someone with their car accidentally, should receive the same punishment as a serial murder. and if not then justification does matter....

Do we punish police officers for taking a life in the line of duty....why not ? what is our justification for that....

I know your having a hard wrapping your mind around this problem, but until you've lost all your current freedoms then it's tough to sit back and say the accidental deaths of innocent people during war time is the same as herding them into death camps, the result is the same but the justification and our moral fibre are not....

Edited October 21, 2008 by Army Guy

[White Doors]

I'm just asking a question: why does a justification matter, when the result is more or less the same?

Well, throwing to the side almost 1000 years of civil law precedents, I agree.

Someone walking across the street and getting hit by a bus and someone who is killed by a serial killer ...What's the Diff?

The result is the same right? The are both dead. Why treat the serial killer any differently than the bus driver?

I mean, the victim is still dead in either case right? Why does Justification matter?

I'm just asking a question

[White Doors]

Incidentally, Children have been shown to learn the difference above by as early as 2 years old.

[betsy]

Betsy's question was: What would you do if 10 year old afghani is charging towards me wrapped in explosives.

It was disingenious because it was designed to get one, only one respons. The 10 year old is guilty and will die no matter what the hypothetical 'i' does. So in Betsy's world, do I shoot the kid and live? or do I not shoot the kid and die? either way the kids toast because he will blow up whatever I decide.

It was a bullshit question.

Why is it a bullshit question? It's very possible.

And it's not "my" world. It's reality! Can't you see that? Khadr could've very well got himself strapped with bombs instead of carrying a simple gun! You sir, are the one who's not in the real world, it seems.

Back to the issue at hand:

People, no matter thier age, who carry arms in combat zones tend to attract the fire of others, no matter thier age, who also carry arms in combat zones. That is the nature of a combat zone. So 10 year olds, or 15 year olds carrying weapons, and most certainly if fireing those weapons, are very likely to be shot.

An unpleasant situation in regards to child-soldiers but understandable nevertheless.

An unpleasant situation as well for the victims of these child soldiers! And a much more unpleasant situation for civilians who are INTENTIONALLY and DELIBERATELY killed or maimed by child soldiers.

However, once the child soldier is subdued, or surrenders or by some other means comes into the hands of the opposing forces, then that child-soldier should be treated with great compassion and leniency and not as a terrorist or heinous criminal.

The child-soldier should be treated FAIRLY. In the brutal reality of war-time, compassion and leniency must be hard to come by. I have not experienced war, and I have not experienced combat nor any life-or-death struggles. Survival is the key. You and I will never know how we'll react if ever we're faced with this kind of situation.

Let the court (whether it be civil or military), decide and pass judgement!

Edited October 22, 2008 by betsy

[Peter F]

Why is it a bullshit question? It's very possible.

and Army Guy described pretty much the same situation. So yeah, its possible.

And it's not "my" world. It's reality! Can't you see that? Khadr could've very well got himself strapped with bombs instead of carrying a simple gun! You sir, are the one who's not in the real world, it seems.

An unpleasant situation as well for the victims of these child soldiers! And a much more unpleasant situation for civilians who are INTENTIONALLY and DELIBERATELY killed or maimed by child soldiers.

...

The child-soldier should be treated FAIRLY. In the brutal reality of war-time, compassion and leniency must be hard to come by. I have not experienced war, and I have not experienced combat nor any life-or-death struggles. Survival is the key. You and I will never know how we'll react if ever we're faced with this kind of situation.

Let the court (whether it be civil or military), decide and pass judgement!

Well, since everybody seems to think I am saying 'Let child soldiers run amok - you brutes!' Let me re-iterate that this is what I said regarding child soldiers in combat:

"10 year olds, or 15 year olds carrying weapons, and most certainly if fireing those weapons, are very likely to be shot.

An unpleasant situation in regards to child-soldiers but understandable nevertheless."

What that means is Kids fireing weapons at soldiers are going to be shot. Its really a shame, but - can't really blame soldiers for shooting kids who are shooting at them. I don't think anyone who kills a kid who is engaging them in combat can be blamed for anything. No leniency nor compassion required. Shoot them; Bayonet them; incinerate them; blow them to bits with 500lb bombs; stitch them up with 25mm chain-guns. Just like any other combatant.

But after...when they have surrendered and/or been captured: then they need be treated as the children they used to be and not incarcerated in maximum security prisons for the next 30 years with a life sentence like every other adult non-western combatant apparently should be. In fact, I think this country has signed an agreement to that effect and it therefore has the force of law behind it and is very probably what we would do if we ever get ahold of a child soldier. I have yet to hear of that happening though.

[WarBicycle]

Here an example of what a 15 or 16 year old is capable of doing, I believe all found guilty of murder are serving life sentences.

[myata]

myata: Yes dead is dead , that is what your saying and the events leading up to that death don't matter...the result is the same, regardless of intention, or circumstances....

Do you think someone who kills someone with their car accidentally, should receive the same punishment as a serial murder. and if not then justification does matter....

Do we punish police officers for taking a life in the line of duty....why not ? what is our justification for that....

This isn't about punishment (although it isn't obvious to me that somebody wrecking havoc on the grounds of their good beliefs should be receiving a lighter one) but about what we do and why.

What is, self appointed "police officers"?

[Army Guy]

This isn't about punishment (although it isn't obvious to me that somebody wrecking havoc on the grounds of their good beliefs should be receiving a lighter one) but about what we do and why.

You did ask the below question did you not, Justification does matter and that fact is reflected in how we judge people, and the amount of punishment we hand out for each crime....and judgement and punishment is what we've been discussing here, and how much Omar should recieve....

My examples i gave you illustrate why justification does matter.

I'm just asking a question: why does a justification matter, when the result is more or less the same?

What is, self appointed "police officers"?

good question, i did'nt make that comment.

[betsy]

But after...when they have surrendered and/or been captured: then they need be treated as the children they used to be...

like how? Cheek-pinching and gush with "pooochie-poochie this cute little boy/girl?" Take them to the fair?

Baloney!

The sad reality is that whether you want to accept it or not, these kids are psychos! They're no longer the children they used to be. Yes they've been brainwashed and re-programmed without their full understanding....but nevertheless, that's the sad truth!

They need psychological help.....which I may be willing to concede, depending on the age of the child. BUT they still pose a risk to society, and for that reason I'd like to see them in prison while they get that help until they are deemed no longer a risk.

[Peter F]

like how? Cheek-pinching and gush with "pooochie-poochie this cute little boy/girl?" Take them to the fair?

Baloney!

The sad reality is that whether you want to accept it or not, these kids are psychos! They're no longer the children they used to be. Yes they've been brainwashed and re-programmed without their full understanding....but nevertheless, that's the sad truth!

They need psychological help.....which I may be willing to concede, depending on the age of the child. BUT they still pose a risk to society, and for that reason I'd like to see them in prison while they get that help until they are deemed no longer a risk.

I don't think they are psycho's. I think they are just ordinary kids placed in extrodinary circumstance. If buy carrying guns around and shooting people is psychotic then Army Guy is a psycho who should be placed in prison upon his return. But I don't think Army Guy is psychotic just because he was in battle. Nor do I think kids are psychotic for being in battle either.

So cheek-pinching and gush with "pooochie-poochie this cute little boy/girl?" and taking them to the fair is probably a very good place to start.

[betsy]

I don't think they are psycho's. I think they are just ordinary kids placed in extrodinary circumstance. If buy carrying guns around and shooting people is psychotic then Army Guy is a psycho who should be placed in prison upon his return. But I don't think Army Guy is psychotic just because he was in battle. Nor do I think kids are psychotic for being in battle either.

So cheek-pinching and gush with "pooochie-poochie this cute little boy/girl?" and taking them to the fair is probably a very good place to start.

Didn't you say these kids are abused - having been indoctrinated/brainwashed without their full understanding due to their age? Well obviously that's the difference between Army Guy and these kids!

Furthermore, Army Guy was not indoctrinated to kill INNOCENT PEOPLE - which maybe just about anyone, from all walks of life, gender and age.

These kids were brainwashed by zealots, which already say a lot!

These children were "programmed" to be without any feelings of compassion - so yes, they are psychos!

Edited October 23, 2008 by betsy