Steyn on the future of Western society

[jbg]

But I was also pleased that I wasn't seduced by these attributes of his into believing his argument, which is still wrong. The reason he is wrong is that there is a link in his argument that is weak, and makes the whole thing fall apart. It is the link between an increasing Muslim population and whatever potential harm he sees coming from that.

There's one important thing that Steyn is missing; the crippling social welfare costs of Muslims who reproduce like mad, but do little or no gainful work.

[BubberMiley]

There's one important thing that Steyn is missing; the crippling social welfare costs of Muslims who reproduce like mad, but do little or no gainful work.

Your hatred of that religion knows no bounds.

[Michael Hardner]

jbg

There's one important thing that Steyn is missing; the crippling social welfare costs of Muslims who reproduce like mad, but do little or no gainful work.

Do you have anything in the way of evidence we could look at ?

[jbg]

Your hatred of that religion knows no bounds.

I have the utmost respect for that religion.

[jbg]

jbg

Do you have anything in the way of evidence we could look at ?

Google "Malmo Sweden" and Muslims. Edited June 10, 2008 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not going to Google anything.

YOU made the point, so YOU bring the evidence. Also, a country more similar to Canada than Sweden would help you prove your point better.

[Black Dog]

No. I'm saying that the Dunkin' Donuts person wearing a checked scarf isn't killed because some idiot decides it's a kaffiyeh. A person making a similar mistake in the Muslim world may face a far less kind fate.

So fucking what? Really.

As usual, August 1991 you hit the nail on the head here. The attacks on the WTC, and mass transit in London and Madrid shows that the Islamic World cannot and will not accept the concept of liberal self-rule by people. They consider it offensive.

The attacks on the WTC and so forth were committed by individuals, not by the so-called "Muslim world." there's no such thing anymore than there is a single entity known as "The West" or "The Jews." The idea that a single label can fully encompass the beliefs and values of 2 billion or so individuals from a variety of social, economic and cultural backgrounds is simply absurd. Obviously, such broad generalizations are unavoidable and even necessary but they are of limited value.

[WIP]

As usual, August 1991 you hit the nail on the head here. The attacks on the WTC, and mass transit in London and Madrid shows that the Islamic World cannot and will not accept the concept of liberal self-rule by people. They consider it offensive.

Then why the hell do you support the Neocon strategy of "building democracy" in the MiddleEast? If Steyn supporters really believe that Islam is incompatible with Western values, wouldn't that be an argument for getting out of the Muslim World, and disengaging from Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and Iraq. You can't complain about terrorist attacks while at the same time maintaining a hegemony over the MiddleEast, which provides the idealogical justification for jihad!

Do you think no one in the Arab World is aware of this story:

Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control

Bush wants 50 military bases, control of Iraqi airspace and legal immunity for all American soldiers and contractors

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi...rol-840512.html

The jist of it is that Bush has set up a permanent occupation that his successor, Democrat or Republican, may not be able to withdraw from..........at least not easily! Let the war crimes trials begin!

[WIP]

Googlel "Malmo Sweden" and Muslims.

I'm no friend of the other proselytizing religion that wants to control the lives of everyone in the world, but to be factually correct, the situation for Muslim minorities in Canada and the United States is a far cry from that of many European nations. Steyn, Robert Spencer, Ayan Hirsi Ali and many other European Islam critics seem to somehow ignore the race factor in the European situation. In Canada and the U.S., Muslim communities have taken some steps to isolate themselves from the broader society, but there is no income gap or welfare ghettos that have cropped up in European cities.

Even the most liberal European nations have never come to grips with how to maintain concepts of national identity, while at the same time, accomodating foreigners. The closest situation we have in Canada is with the Quebec nationalists, who separate themselves from anglos who learned french as a second language, and french-speaking immigrants, by identifying themselves as the "Pur Laine" Quebecois.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you think no one in the Arab World is aware of this story:

Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control

....The jist of it is that Bush has set up a permanent occupation that his successor, Democrat or Republican, may not be able to withdraw from..........at least not easily! Let the war crimes trials begin!

It's no secret...take a look at the new US embassy fortress:

http://cryptome.org/amemb-080226.htm

Did anyone really think otherwise?

[eyeball]

The more salient question is does anyone want otherwise?

By the way BC do you think democracy trumps economics?

Does anyone else think otherwise?

[BubberMiley]

I have the utmost respect for that religion.

Yes, as disingenuously as you are a left-wing Democrat.

[DogOnPorch]

eyeball: The more salient question is does anyone want otherwise?

By the way BC do you think democracy trumps economics?

Does anyone else think otherwise?

...

BM: Yes, as disingenuously as you are a left-wing Democrat.

So just to be clear here...are you against HRCs for them as means for 'the oppressed' to take free speech to task? I'm, at least for the present time, against them. We all kinda get the idea that you all and BC-2004 do not see eye to eye.

--------------------------------------------------------

I must have killed more men than Cecil B. DeMille.

---Blazing Saddles

Edited June 9, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

I thought the comment about quoting Ernst Zundel for an article about white Canadians was rather astute, though it was pretty clear that the three of them did not have the kind of, flair, needed to really take Steyn on one on one.

I have to take issue with this and I should have caught it long back. Islam...no matter what some Muslims/reporters/etc might wish us to think...isn't a race, it's a religion. Plenty of 'white people' are Muslims.

------------------------------

Objects in mirror are, no doubt, closer than they appear.

---National Lampoon/Heavy Metal

[jbg]

I'm not going to Google anything.

YOU made the point, so YOU bring the evidence. Also, a country more similar to Canada than Sweden would help you prove your point better.

OK, I'll take the bait and do it for you (link, excerpts below):

Friday, November 26, 2004

Swedes Reach Muslim Breaking Point

By Steve Harrigan

MALMO, Sweden — Swedish authorities in the southern city of Malmo (search) have been busy with a sudden influx of Muslim immigrants — 90 percent of whom are unemployed and many who are angry and taking it out on the country that took them in.

"If we park our car it will be damaged — so we have to go very often in two vehicles, one just to protect the other vehicle," said Rolf Landgren, a Malmo police officer.

Fear of violence has changed the way police, firemen and emergency workers do their jobs.

There are some neighborhoods Swedish ambulance drivers will not go to without a police escort. Angry crowds have threatened them, telling them which patient to take and which ones to leave behind.

************

Edited June 10, 2008 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

Ok, well you posted it, so I guess I should read it then. I'll give it a good look and tell you what I think of it.

[Peter F]

After searching through 22 pages of Google search results for "Malmo + Sweden" this is what I found that relates to jbg's contention that Malmo is in ruins:

Weekly Standard, 28 Feb 2005

A Swedish Dilemma

Immigration and the welfare state.

by Christopher Caldwell

...no mention of what Harrigan at Fox was taling about 3 months previous , or cops scared to enter certain areas or ambulance drivers requiring police escorts etc etc etc

Jihad Watch, Apr 16 2007

Riots in Malmö continue

Jihad Watch reader Ted has kindly sent along this English summary of this Swedish article about ongoing Muslim riots in the city of Malmö:

Rosengård, an area with a very high immigrant population, is yet again on the frontpage as the riots from Saturday continue. On Sunday, several storage facilities were set ablaze.

But the most disturbing thing was that a 17-year-old boy was brutally assaulted by a group of 6 "youths" (as the newspaper described them). They beat him so severely that he is now treated in intesive care in Lund Hospital.

The assault took place at 20:30, when two boys were on their way home from soccer practice. The gang concentrated on the 17-year-old; his friend got away to alert the police. When the police arrived at the scene, they found the boy lying on the ground with wounds to his head. According to the friend who got away, the attackers were unknown to them -- which indicates that this was a random, unprovoked act of violence.

The boy, in critical condition, is sedated and is on life support with a respirator.

The police have made no arrests and the motive is unknown.

Riots in Malmo continue, 16 Apr 2007

Please visit the newspaper “Sydsvenska Dagbladet”, the largest newspaper in the south of Sweden. On this website you can find the article I have gotten the information from. Please note tha last picture: the “youngsters”, as they keep referring to, are all immigrants. The area in question is a highly dense immigration area. The area is called “Rosengård” and Fox News did a story regarding Malmo and Rosengård some time ago.

—————————-

The riots in Malmo continues

Rosengård, an area with a very high immigration population, is yet again on the frontpage as the riots from Saturday continues. On Sunday several storage facilities was set ablaze but the most disturbing thing was that a 17 year old boy was brutally assaulted by a group of 6 “youths” (as described in the local newspaper) that beat him so severely that he is now treated in intesive care in Lund Hospital.

The assault took place at 20:30 when two boys was on their way home from soccer practice. The gang concentrated on the 17 year old and his friend got away to alert the police. When they police arrived at the scene they found the boy laying on the ground with wounds to his head. According to the friend who got away the attackers were unknown to them which indicates that this is random unprovoced act of violence.

The boy, in critical condition, is sedated and is on life support in a respirator.

The police have made no arrests and the motive is unknown.

Fox News on Malmo, 28 Oct 2004

Ali Dashti has been kindly supplying us with information about the situation in Sweden for some time. Now the larger -- if not mainstream -- media is catching on. From a FoxNews commentary:

Oct. 22, 2004 8:45 AM

Malmo, Sweden

Where the Buses Won't Go

Commentary by Steve Harrigan for FOX Fan Central

And thats it...

1 fox news, 1 jihadwatch and 1 dhimmiwatch (wich is apparently a branch of jihad watch according to the url)

Nothing Else. No other internet site in google references anything about the alleged horrors of Malmo.

[WIP]

And thats it...

1 fox news, 1 jihadwatch and 1 dhimmiwatch (wich is apparently a branch of jihad watch according to the url)

Nothing Else. No other internet site in google references anything about the alleged horrors of Malmo.

Hmmm......is it possible that the proportions of this story are being deliberately magnified by people looking an enemy?

Back when I used to have Charles Johnson's Littlegreenfootballs blog as my homepage, the world looked like a much different place!

And that's the key problem! Rightwing and leftwing blogs all crosslink each other to create their own little echo chambers. One thing is for sure, you're only going to learn one side of the story by reading Robert Spencer's Jihadwatch and Dhimmiwatch sites. Spencer is just one cog in the Neocon clique that wants to build the Clash of Civilizations story because they've been desperately in need of an excuse to maintain America's excessive military since the fall of the Soviet Union!

Will the Islamic World adjust to modern realities? I have no idea, and neither do people like Spencer! All he can do is focus on the hardliners who want to turn the clock back to the 7th Century. Ultimately, it's up to Muslims to decide for themselves if they want to continue being crippled by the demands of excessive religious devotion. And efforts by the new crusaders to Christianize Arabia and maintain hegemony over oil supplies are not going to inspire many moderates in the Muslim World!

But, every so often, there are some hopeful signs of reason; here's one example:

Qaradawi tells Egyptians: pray less, work more

Islamic preachers say prayer must not be used as pretext for wasting time at work.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=26281

[jbg]

After searching through 22 pages of Google search results for "Malmo + Sweden" this is what I found that relates to jbg's contention that Malmo is in ruins:

************************

And thats it...

1 fox news, 1 jihadwatch and 1 dhimmiwatch (wich is apparently a branch of jihad watch according to the url)

Nothing Else. No other internet site in google references anything about the alleged horrors of Malmo.

How about the French banlieu riots of October of 2005 or 2006? I forget which year.

[DogOnPorch]

WIP: And that's the key problem! Rightwing and leftwing blogs all crosslink each other to create their own little echo chambers.

I agree with you at this point. Several points of history would no doubt make excellent examples. All it takes is one fellow making a basic error in history then somebody quoting him/her to get it all started. Say a history report that said Barbarossa started in June 1942...or June 1940...etc.

WIP: One thing is for sure, you're only going to learn one side of the story by reading Robert Spencer's Jihadwatch and Dhimmiwatch sites. Spencer is just one cog in the Neocon clique that wants to build the Clash of Civilizations story because they've been desperately in need of an excuse to maintain America's excessive military since the fall of the Soviet Union!

Just to be fair to potential 'neocons', could you provide an example of Robert Spencer telling only one side of the story for us to mull over? I don't mean to be a jerk either. Just so often I hear this fellow or that being discarded out-of-hand as being a 'neocon stooge', or whatever, without any real support as to why they are a stooge other than yours or someone else's say-so.

WIP: Will the Islamic World adjust to modern realities? I have no idea, and neither do people like Spencer! All he can do is focus on the hardliners who want to turn the clock back to the 7th Century. Ultimately, it's up to Muslims to decide for themselves if they want to continue being crippled by the demands of excessive religious devotion.

Depends on how "uppity" the Muslims get in this process of 'finding-one's-self'...lol.

And efforts by the new crusaders to Christianize Arabia and maintain hegemony over oil supplies are not going to inspire many moderates in the Muslim World!

I seriously doubt Saudi Arabia is becoming Christian...or that anyone is seriously trying to convert it. But I'll agree, some Muslims get upset about leaves changing colour in the fall and feel it is a personal insult.

But, every so often, there are some hopeful signs of reason...

Then another car bomb goes off.

-------------------------------------------------------

In the cool cool cool of the evening

Tell 'em I'll be there

In the cool cool cool of the evening

You better save a chair

When the party's getting a glow on

Singing fills the air

In the shank of the night when the doings are right

You can tell 'em I'll be there!

---Dean Martin

[Black Dog]

I'm curious: if civil unrest carried out by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Sweden and France are evidence of a global Muslim conspiracy, what conspiracy was behind the riots by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Harlem, Watts and Chicago in the 1960s?

[Leafless]

I'm curious: if civil unrest carried out by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Sweden and France are evidence of a global Muslim conspiracy, what conspiracy was behind the riots by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Harlem, Watts and Chicago in the 1960s?

How about conspiring to incite violence for no other reason than to instill fear into White America.

Even prominent Black leaders who had campaigned for civil rights on the basis of civil disobedience could not understand the violent motivations of the rioters.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm curious: if civil unrest carried out by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Sweden and France are evidence of a global Muslim conspiracy, what conspiracy was behind the riots by poor and disenfranchised youths in the ghettos of Harlem, Watts and Chicago in the 1960s?

You're generalizing the other way. What does poverty have to do with Islam and terrorism?

----------------------------------------

If you want to have an exclusive surgery with me, Dr. Nick Riviera, dial 1-800-DOCTORB. Note the extra B is for BARGAIN.

---Dr Nick Riviera

[jbg]

You're generalizing the other way. What does poverty have to do with Islam and terrorism?

----------------------------------------

If you want to have an exclusive surgery with me, Dr. Nick Riviera, dial 1-800-DOCTORB. Note the extra B is for BARGAIN.

---Dr Nick Riviera

Radical Islam and terror both beget poverty by discouraging productive work.

[WIP]

I agree with you at this point. Several points of history would no doubt make excellent examples. All it takes is one fellow making a basic error in history then somebody quoting him/her to get it all started. Say a history report that said Barbarossa started in June 1942...or June 1940...etc.

Just to be fair to potential 'neocons', could you provide an example of Robert Spencer telling only one side of the story for us to mull over?

Okay, if you want an example of one-sided journalism, just read the headlines on Jihadwatch or Dhimmiwatch and tell me if you see any good news stories posted like the one I posted about Sheik Qaradawi calling on Muslims to be more pragmatic and spend more time working and less time praying. You won't find the story on Spencer's sites or any of the other crosslinked alarmist sites that see Islam as the post-communist enemy to rally the troops and keep the military-industrial complex armed to the teeth! Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald are only interested in stories that inspire fear and loathing of Muslims.

He also doesn't present a consistent message! On his homepage Q & A, he sounds very conciliatory and reasonable, saying that:" I am only calling attention to the roots and goals of jihad violence. Any Muslim who renounces violent jihad and dhimmitude is welcome to join in our anti-jihadist efforts." Sounds nice! But if you've ever heard him explain the difference between radical Muslims and moderate Muslims during his interviews on rightwing radio programs, he usually describes the difference as similar to sitting around a campfire -- where the fanatical fundamentalists are the ones closest to the fire, while the moderates are two or three rows back. In other words, the moderates are moderate because they don't know their scriptures, so what kind of welcome is he talking about?

Simple fact is religions are more than their religious texts! If there is a growing zeitgeist for change, like happened in Christendom during the MiddleAges, the scriptures will be re-interpreted to suit the needs of the time. A scripturally sanctioned institution like slavery was later declared abhorrent and an abomination by Christian revisionists in the Abolitionist Movement, and there's no reason why changes of interpretation, or they could just ignore doctrines that they no longer wish to adhere to, just like Christians and Jews have done!

I don't mean to be a jerk either. Just so often I hear this fellow or that being discarded out-of-hand as being a 'neocon stooge', or whatever, without any real support as to why they are a stooge other than yours or someone else's say-so.

Considering where Spencer gets the money to conduct his research and operate his websites, I'd say he qualifies as a neocon stooge just on that basis alone: http://www.unc.edu/~cernst/courses/2004/026/001/spencer.htm

Depends on how "uppity" the Muslims get in this process of 'finding-one's-self'...lol.

I seriously doubt Saudi Arabia is becoming Christian...or that anyone is seriously trying to convert it. But I'll agree, some Muslims get upset about leaves changing colour in the fall and feel it is a personal insult.

Who said anything about Saudi Arabia? I was talking about Iraq, where you have a population that is highly suspicious that the infidel army occupying the country is trying to convert them to Christianity: http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/i...ory/357605.html