eyeball Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 I have little doubt that violence and hatred will still be a fact of life in the event of a complete military pullout. I've heard it argued however and I agree, that our interference in these regions has done nothing but cause a natural process from playing itself out. Over the past century or more the west rearranged the political landscape in much of the world by redrawing several national borders. The west essentially divided people with the intent to conquor them or make our exploitation of their natural resources easier. Millions who were traditionally antagonistic towards one another were forced to abandon the borders that made peace between them possible. These people need to re-establish their natural divisions and boundaries on their own and they need their natural resources to create stable societies. Instead of picking sides we should be acknowledging our role in causing the unfortunate circumstances these people find themselves in. Israel will be far better off in the long-haul if it can make its own accomodation with its neighbours. If it can't then so be it. Our continued intereference will only make things worse. I'm often reminded that the extremists are small in number so it stands to reason they will have a difficult time forcing hundreds of millions of people to accept their extreme views about how their societies should be shaped. Its incomprehensible to me that so many people hate freedom to the extent they would willingly embrace the tyranny the extremists apparently want to establish. I believe that democracy is best left to evolve on its own. Democracy's foundations are partly based after all on the shared experience of knowing what it is that's wrong with tyranny. That's how it worked in our case. None of what I said precludes anyone from the west from trying to help people build hospitals, schools and infrastucture. There is however no military solution. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 ...None of what I said precludes anyone from the west from trying to help people build hospitals, schools and infrastucture. There is however no military solution. Yes there is....see 20th century Europe and Japan. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 There is no military solution. Yes there is....see 20th century Europe and Japan. No there isn't. WW 1 & 2 were the result of the military solutions that didn't take in the 19th century and so on and so on...argumentum ad nauseam. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
M.Dancer Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 If anyone can help explain how the first world war affected Japan and turned it into an expansionist military state....Eyeball needs your help. For that matter, how Italy being on the side of the victors in the first world war made it join the losers in the second.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Ergonomic Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 If anyone can help explain how the first world war affected Japan and turned it into an expansionist military state....Eyeball needs your help.For that matter, how Italy being on the side of the victors in the first world war made it join the losers in the second.... The Japanese were ignored, or did ignore, Versailles. Maybe they thought they could sneak a march on the west. They certainly wanted hegemony in the east at the time and moved in that direction. My guess is that Italy joined Germany in WWII because Mussolini wanted territory (Balkans, Ethiopia...) and misjudged the war, and most particularly Hitler. He wasn't alone, after all. Quote
eyeball Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) In any case, each war does have roots in the wars and conflicts that preceded or occured elsewhere around them. The only way to pretend otherwise is to believe that our collective history is wiped clean with each new outrage or good deed that gets committed. Edited January 30, 2008 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
M.Dancer Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 In any case, each war does have roots in the wars and conflicts that preceded or occured elsewhere around them. The only way to pretend otherwise is to believe that our collective history is wiped clean with each new outrage or good deed that gets committed. What war did the US civil war root from? How about theSpanish Civil War? How about the Falklands War? What about the Iraq Kuwait war? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 I have little doubt that violence and hatred will still be a fact of life in the event of a complete military pullout. The above statement reinforces the problem i have with your way of things....Your saying that yes i know there will be violence when we leave, thousands will die....but that is the order of things, it's not my problem, nor is it my worry, why should i spend my tax dollars on a problem so far away that really will not effect me personaly in anyway. And if all Canadians thought this way, we would not be in world affairs at all, Dafur crisies...who cares...Rwanda who cares, millions dying each day from stavation, war, etc ...who cares....Not my tax dollars you say, got better things to do than feed a bunch of starving backwards hicks....and there is NO way we are sending our military down there to keep the peace, or give you the precious gift of freedom it cost to much, and maybe will lose a soldier or 2....NOPE no way....suck it up it's the order of things.... Over the past century or more the west rearranged the political landscape in much of the world by redrawing several national borders. The west essentially divided people with the intent to conquor them or make our exploitation of their natural resources easier Do you really make this up as you go along.....Name one nation that was created or had its national bounders redrawn ....in order to make it easier to conquor later or for that matter make our exploitation of natural resources easier....Think about this for a minute. Think about the British mandate in the middle east or is that a bad example... Israel will be far better off in the long-haul if it can make its own accomodation with its neighbours. If it can't then so be it. Our continued intereference will only make things worse. Yes we know , the natural order of things....we could watch it on TV as muslims pushed the entire jewish nation of Israel into the sea....But we could fell comfortable in the knowledge that "hey it's the order of things" we'd only make it worse....pass me another beer, and change the channel back to the hockey game... I'm often reminded that the extremists are small in number so it stands to reason they will have a difficult time forcing hundreds of millions of people to accept their extreme views about how their societies should be shaped. Are you kidding me....How soon we forget...How about hilter, stalin, to name a few...and the hundrds of other dictators in the world...or did they just all of sudden appear "poof" there they were dictators, tyrants, what ever... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Ergonomic Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 What war did the US civil war root from? How about theSpanish Civil War?How about the Falklands War? What about the Iraq Kuwait war? The Iraq Kuwait war was definitely an artifact of WWI and the Versailles conference. The Western powers were like hot babes with sugar daddies doing a stroll down Rodeo Drive. And all based on a century of colonialism. There are undercurrents that are pinning the curent problems in Kenya on Britidsh colonialism. They're 'Bloody well right'. The Falklands was a similarly sorry tale. The American civil war grew out of 1776, the Mexican wars and the Louisianna Purchase. Quote
eyeball Posted January 30, 2008 Report Posted January 30, 2008 Your saying that yes i know there will be violence when we leave, thousands will die....but that is the order of things, it's not my problem, nor is it my worry, why should i spend my tax dollars on a problem so far away that really will not effect me personaly in anyway. I have consistenly maintained that we should be worried. I have not said it is not our problem, I have said we are a big part of the problem. I have also said that we should be willing to nearly sacrifice our economic good fortune to do something about it. You think 2 cents on the dollar is going to cut it? What a cheapskate. What I have said is far away, is the likelihood of an invasion, in the form of the Islamic Wermacht alluded to in your constant references to WW2. I expect events over there will personally and deeply affected me for the rest of my life and probably that of my kids lives too, especially if we continue to cleave to the idea that we can solve anything militarily. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
jbg Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 The Iraq Kuwait war was definitely an artifact of WWI and the Versailles conference. The Western powers were like hot babes with sugar daddies doing a stroll down Rodeo Drive. And all based on a century of colonialism.Are you saying that but for the post-WW I colonization that part of the world was peaceful, constructive and overall a good place to live?There are undercurrents that are pinning the curent problems in Kenya on Britidsh colonialism. They're 'Bloody well right'.Doesn't it have something to do with contestants who cannot seem to run a free, fair election? Maybe being leader of a country such as Kenya is too lucrative an opportunity (i.e. chance to fill Swiss bank accounts) to pass up?The Falklands was a similarly sorry tale.Oh yes, the people there badly wanted Argentine rule. Not. Do you think the people of Hong Kong wanted the Brits to surrender HK to the Communists' not so tender mercies?The American civil war grew out of 1776, the Mexican wars and the Louisianna Purchase.Are you saying we didn't have slave colonies pre-1776? You need to learn some American history, or for that matter Canadian history (which I doubt you know). What balderdash. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
blueblood Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 If anyone can help explain how the first world war affected Japan and turned it into an expansionist military state....Eyeball needs your help.For that matter, how Italy being on the side of the victors in the first world war made it join the losers in the second.... I heard that Japan was a big time industrial state back in the day, and it needed secure and cheaper resources to power it's growth. What better way to get secure and cheap resources than having it in your own backyard. I don't think Japan was in the first World War but was quickly becoming a superpower nonetheless. They smacked the Russians around in and around that time frame. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 The Iraq Kuwait war was definitely an artifact of WWI and the Versailles conference. The Western powers were like hot babes with sugar daddies doing a stroll down Rodeo Drive. And all based on a century of colonialism.There are undercurrents that are pinning the curent problems in Kenya on Britidsh colonialism. They're 'Bloody well right'. The Falklands was a similarly sorry tale. The American civil war grew out of 1776, the Mexican wars and the Louisianna Purchase. Tell me you are a satirist. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Topaz Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 According to C-pac website www.c-pac.ca PM told Bush that Canada will not stay in "battle-mode" unless we get another 1000 troops from NATO. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 We shouldn't be fooled by those like Eyeball who use a strawman argument like suggesting the west and NATO are pursuing a military solution in Afganistan. Since he hates the military and the west he combines the two in a false argument. There is onlypower pursing a military solution and that power, the Taliban is the power that Eyeball would see in charge. In fact the west along with NATO are pursuing multiple solutions to ensure Afghanistan doesn't become a failed state. The Political Solution. Afghanistan with our support is making baby steps towards democracy. The only way short of the Taliban solution to the never ending cycle of petty warlords and clan conflict is to enfranchise and bring all tribes and regions into the decision making process. Afghanistan had had a working democratic government for only a couple of years but it is real progress. The Social Solution. The West and NATO are involved in countless projects to improve the lives of ordinary Afghans. The projects range from road building, to schools, agricultural, medicine to ordinary activities like repairing village gnerators and ensuing people have claen water. Unfortunately those who work in these projects, especially in the zones where the Taliban are active put their lives in mortal jeopardy as they face dangers from Taliban gunmen who would kill them, bandits who would kidnap them and IEDs which do not discriminate between NGOs and NCOs. They are targets simply because prosperity is the enemy of the Taliban. The Military. There is no military solution that the west is pursuing. The military in Afghanistan is there simply to defend the civilian populace and the government from those who would see Afghanistan return to brutal theocracy and a haven for international terrorists. Simply put, without the Taliban killing aid workers, bombing schools etc etc....Canada and the wests presence would be limited to aid workers. If anyone is to make a case against a military solution, they should make it against the Taliban...I haven't heard of any schools built by the Taliban, or roads cleared of mines, or clinics set up by them. It is the Taliban that refuse the political option prefering bullets over ballots, it is the Taliban who destroy any hope for the Afghan people. It is the Taliban shoe should end their single minded goal of a military solution. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 I have consistenly maintained that we should be worried. I have not said it is not our problem, I have said we are a big part of the problem. I have also said that we should be willing to nearly sacrifice our economic good fortune to do something about it. You think 2 cents on the dollar is going to cut it? What a cheapskate. If you want i can cut and paste your previous comments, in which you have said we should not be involved in offensive operations outside of Canada....that we should let Afgan solve it's own problems and let nature take it's course.....And you hate that your tax dollars are spent on the military (later changed to )offensive military operations outside of Canada...So as far as consistancy there has been none....with the exception your again'st our nation assisting Afgan.... What I have said is far away, is the likelihood of an invasion, in the form of the Islamic Wermacht alluded to in your constant references to WW2. I don't recall anyone calling for an invasion....but they are bring the fight to our shores via 9/11, forcing us to change our life styles.... I expect events over there will personally and deeply affected me for the rest of my life and probably that of my kids lives too, especially if we continue to cleave to the idea that we can solve anything militarily Really, you mean longer wait at the airports, other security measures being inconvient.... Cause i thought you meant waking up 2 or 3 times a night in a cold sweat reliving past battles or events, doing 5 and 20 meter checks as you get out of you car at the mall , looking for IED's or mines....Cutting off a car on the highway for getting to close....or keep grabing for a pistol that is not there while shopping with your wife in the mall, because you percieved a threat.....And my favorite grabing your wifes arm and twisting it , flipping her over into a submission hold with one hand around her neck the other looking for a wpn......while she was only trying to wake you up for snoring....But things are getting better, the RCMP have talked to me about the dangers of cutting off vehs on the highway for getting to close....my wife has purchased a king size bed, and wakes me up with a broom stick, i still do my checks for IED's and mines, and still react to precieved threats, but things are looking up...And i'm training for my third tour... As for cleaving to the idea that nothing can be solved thru force or the threat of force ....not even you believe in that crap and you've said so your self....the NAZI's were defeated using force, same as the chinese in korea, the cold war, the list is numerous....and Today the Taliban will be defeated using force.... I'm proud of what i do, i'm proud of my nation for taking action when action is needed....and would not trade in my life or my experiances for anything.... OK maybe i'd change for hugh's job at the mansion... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
myata Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 Read this BBC: West & "Democracies" for a clue on what kind of "democracy" we want to see wherever we go. Also, if there're any facts supporting the claim that "they" (i.e Taleban, whom we're fighting in their homeland) were directly involved in the attacks on the US, I'd like to hear them. To be complicit in the crime, and to give sanctuary to a criminal is not one and the same thing. As democracy and "democracy" isn't really the same thing. As the rule of law and torture. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 To be complicit in the crime, and to give sanctuary to a criminal is not one and the same thing. Ummmm...so sorry, it is. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
myata Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 Yeah? So when a church gives a sanctuary to a criminal, they should all be doled justice on par with the criminal, including, depending on the crime, "capital" justice? That's what we did in Afghanistan, anyways. Correct? Or no - as said - we're uber beings, really - the rules we set for others can't be applied to us. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 Yeah? So when a church gives a sanctuary to a criminal, they should all be doled justice on par with the criminal, including, depending on the crime, "capital" justice? That's what we did in Afghanistan, anyways. Correct? Or no - as said - we're uber beings, really - the rules we set for others can't be applied to us. .... find a church that has given sanctuary to a felon....then explain why the Taliban should be treated like a church Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 We shouldn't be fooled by those like Eyeball who use a strawman argument like suggesting the west and NATO are pursuing a military solution in Afganistan. Since he hates the military and the west he combines the two in a false argument. There is onlypower pursing a military solution and that power, the Taliban is the power that Eyeball would see in charge. Horsehit, nor should we be fooled into believing that the west is accomplishing anything in Afganistan. The west's Afghan adventure is now devoid of coherent strategy. Soldiers are dying, the opium trade is booming and aid lies undistributed. Command and control of the war against the Taliban is slipping from the most bizarre western occupying force since the fourth Crusade to a tight cabal around the Afghan ruler, Hamid Karzai, who is fighting to retain a remnant of authority in his own capital. Meanwhile in Pakistan. Musharraf, at America's bidding and with $10bn of American money, has done what even his craziest predecessors avoided, and recklessly set the Pashtun on the warpath - increasingly in thrall to a revived al-Qaida. The result is a plague of suicide bombings and killings in the heartland of his benighted state. From the law courts of America to the mosques of west London and the mountains of the Hindu Kush, the war on terror has been lethally and predictably counter-productive. It embodies the new stupidity in international affairs. Link The PMO's office is utterly incapable of doing anything to mitigate the geo-political vandalism our so-called allies are committing. We are completely out of a league that we should be deeply ashamed to call our own. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 Well if someone known for their expertise on architecture says so...I suppose it must be true. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 Well if someone known for their expertise on architecture says so...I suppose it must be true. So what is it about your expertise that makes you such a smarty pants? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
White Doors Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 So what is it about your expertise that makes you such a smarty pants? Don't you get tired of being out-debated, topic after topic, day after day? Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
M.Dancer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Posted January 31, 2008 So what is it about your expertise that makes you such a smarty pants? My ineffable ability not to use ridiculous architecture critics as sources for opinions on geopolitics. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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