Army Guy

I agree with Black dog not everyone is a terrorist in the wings, however that being said there are Islamists in this country right now, that have attended bin ladins training camps, who have fought against Coalition forces in Afganistan, and have family members in Gitmo today. and yet Canadians are good with that. if we can't deport these people that we know have direct links to bin ladin, then there has to be a major flaw in our imigration dept somewhere. It is true fighting terrorist with conventional forces is not very efficient, but it does produce results. And there are some chioces you have to make when you decide that you or goverment are going to stand up for your rights. where do you want to fight them, how do you want to fight them. There are some people on this forum that really believe that Canada is not at War, perhaps someone should tell that to the 4 Canadain soldiers that were injuried by a sucide bomber in Afgan a couple days ago. We are at war.

This is not the first time the Senate has reported on Canada's defense department and all it's problems. or for that matter the dozens of groups internal to Canada not mention outside organizations such as US, UK, Germany, NATO,even the UN has commented to our goverment that we should take a serious look at our military. Our military is not just wounded but mortally wounded and in 5 to 10 years will no longer exist without a major influx of funding. Almost ever major system or platform within the dept is not just over due for replacement but 10 years or more past replacement dates, to the piont that those Canadians soldiers,sailors,airmen operating them risk there lives doing so. But we as taxpayers shrug our shoulders pat them on the back tell them we are proud of them, then say keep up the good work. But Canadians already know of this, most agree that the military requires more funding. Hoping that our goverment does the right thing and pours some cash into the failing Dept. But this is Canada and that is far as Canadians will take this matter. Until it is made a major part of a re-election platform DND will get scraps that it is thrown, continue to do Canada proud at the risk of there own lives.

Yaro: Here is a few releases given by the goverment or recorded from them. The goverment did let the public know that troops were being sent into Afganisatn for alot reasons one of them was combat....the below were releases taken from the first Afgan tour that the PPCLI did in 2001. Perhaps you miss those ones... My Webpage My Webpage The PM's office has to authorize any units that deploys JTF personal are strickly used for combat....here is the defense minister acknowleging that they are in Afgan and they are not handing out candy.. jtf How about the purchase of Mr. Critiens new planes he fast tracked..., the somolia inquiry, Rwanda. Liberals have made a whole new sport of blaming the military for things that have gone wrong... How many politions were held accountable for any of that, not one, as i recall the military was held accountable. As for nation building, it is part of the peacekeeping process...and an integral part of creating a lasting peace...after all wiping out the taliban to the last man would be easy if we all knew that we could leave the mess for someone else to clean up. Again behind closed doors, perhaps i guess Gen Leslie never got that memo in regards to his latest comments....I personal think that Hillier is liked even respected by the present goverment and nothing was said....look what it took to have the militaries favourite polition Miss parish punished... I I think you are guilty of chest beating by stating that nobody on this board knew more about Canada's military, or it's history...to some it's Rhetoric...and yet you have not proven it a truth....I've asked you to pick your own topic for debate as long as it pertains to Canada's military or its history. As i'm looking foward to it.. Yes and your forgetting polish and many americans as well. I do take issue with them being called a dragoon regt, normally considered a tank or armoured unit , the Black watch were clearly a light Inf regt...could you clarify this.... I believe you did state that most soldiers had anti social behavior and now you are stating perhaps a minority...would you go as far as no more than the rest of the Canadian citizens...Considering that the Average Canadian soldier has not fired his weopon in anger i have difficulting in believing how you came up with this theory... i would agree with you if a soldier was repeatily exposed to killing, or continuily exposed to having his comrads wounded or killed...they may develope fellings of no regret when killing for revenge or some other motive but this is the Canadian army we are discussing and have not been exposed to the enemy to this extent... Not true, there are plenty of statistics out thier that prove not all soldiers react the same in fact in WW II only 40 % or less even fired their wepons, i believe that the stats are higher now as the training improves...and you have failed to mention that military training also includes when to use force and when not to, for example if a soldier comes back off of operations and hits someone with his car, does he stop, or does he continue with out thought he has been trained to take life .......i mean he has been exposed to death,and destruction...you make it sound like they can not become a productive member of Canada...

theloniusfleabag: There is no real way to prove that unless your in the Afgani or US goverment , We as soldiers were only thier to provide sercurity during the elections. so my comments are only my opinion or what i precieved to have happened. As for Karzai being a puppet, i'm sure that would be said of any person who took the office, Karzai does have his own agenda, like any country does, and he does tow the line on certain subjects to be able to continue getting US funding, but not all......The US war machine is interested in Iraq a this piont ,...Nato is starting to rebuild the countries infra structure which can only improve conditions over there. Thats got to be good for everyone....Thats why i think this mission is a good one as we can only make things better, because things are pretty bad over there in regards to quality of life, conditions etc, etc.... Canada was winding down our efforts in Bosina. our goverment had already put troops in Afgan, at the time it was the only game in town so to speak. it is cheaper to have one large mission than two small ones half a continent apart.... Why is it so important to Canada, in my opinion i see it as Canada helping out a nation that has known nothing but conflict for generations, it littorally has nothing and Canada has so much to offer. Why not ? Canadian soldiers are well liked by the people, but most important we are respected, for our fairness,neutrality, and for keeping our word and promises....

theloniusfleabag: I think that is exactly what is being done over there now, Yes they have had elections with another to be held shortly, is that western democracy to a piont, however Islamic law and customs still play a major role in thier new goverment. The Afganis i talked to thier number one concern was peace, they want the fighting to end, they are tired of death,and destruction. most not all did not like the Taliban, and thier extremist Islamic ways. I agree, but democracy is not being pushed at them at the same level as Russia forced communism at them or the Extremist islamic veiws that the taliban forced on them. They have set up thier own goverment in traditional islamic ways... NATO is fine with that. Canada is not using military power to change anyones minds, with the exception of the taliban who is bent on revenge not only on Nato but it's own people as well Nato is trying to provide a secure enviroment, so aid agencies can come in, so major reconstruction can take place etc etc. Peace is a long prcess, we were in Bosina for all most 10 years, but it did not suffer the damage that Afganistan did. Most of Canada's other peace keeping missions have been canceled or severly curtailed so they could concentrate on the Afganistan mission. Again that is not the goal, but to give Afganis the goverment of thier choice that follows the islamic ways. To unit the different Warlords under one goverment( this is the difficult one). and those "soldiers of god" you ref to are the taliban and they are not just attacking Nato targets but like i said thier own people as well...what would you call them freedom fighters, who's freedom are they fighting for... Yes to me, to you , to the nation. I guess it comes down to the question of can Canada really help these people and in which ways. I've seen what it was like during the first Roto Canada sent, and i've talked to some of the guys coming back off Roto 3 just a year and a bit later and there is prgress being made ,the Afgan peoples lives are improving. Do we stay or do we go....

Flea bag: Just curious as to what part of those comments are vipid, or make you cringe. Do you honestly think that is what is happening over there now ? Perhaps when you read the entire text it takes on a new meaning i know it does for me... My Webpage SirSpanky: Are you saying you've changed your views. a complete 180 actually...because the Gen says it might be a long term operation. Why the change in heart...

canadian_conservative: I got mine from Janes, they are pretty accurate. below is thiuer equipment holdings compare yourself. Denmark has x 4 brigades were we have only 3. WORLD ARMIES, DENMARK Jane's World Armies 2002-2003 Equipment in Service Armour MBT: 225 × Leopard 1A5 (105 mm) (58 in store); 51 × Leopard 2A4 (to be upgraded to A5 standard); Recce: 36 × M-95 Eagle; AIFV: 50 × M113A2 (25 mm); APCs: 490 × M-113 and variants (including 50 × 81 mm SP mortars) ; 22 × MOWAG Piranha III armoured reconnaissance vehicles. Infantry Pistols: 9 mm SIG P210; 9 mm FN 35; Sub-machine guns: 9 mm M-49; 9 mm H&K MP5A3; Rifles: 5.56 mm Diemarco C7 and C7A1; 5.56 mm M16A1; 7.62 mm G3; Machine Guns: 7.62 mm M-42/59; 12.7 mm MGs (vehicle mounted); ATGW: 120 × TOW (including 50 SP); Anti-Tank: 300e × Bofors AT4; 1,100 × 84 mm Carl Gustav; M72 LAW; 20 × 106 mm RCL M40 (believed to be in store). Artillery SP: 76 × 155 mm M-109; Towed: 95 × 155 mm M-114/39; 134 × 105 mm M-101; MRL: 4 × 227 mm MLRS (on order); Mortars:160 × 120 mm Brandt; 338 × 81 mm (including 50 SP). Air Defence SAM: 90e × Stinger; AAA: 36 × 40 mm L/60. Army Aviation 12 × AS-550C2 Fennec (attack with Heli TOW); 12 × Hughes 500M/OH-6 support and observation. The Air Force has 14 × EH 101 on order. WORLD ARMIES, CANADA Date Posted: 15 February 2002 Jane's World Armies 11 Equipment in Service Armour MBT: 114 × Leopard C-2. Reconnaissance: 190 × Cougar; LAV-25; 203 × Coyote; APCs: 1,200 × M113A1 (including Lynx and TOW variants - 341 recently modernised and a total of 396 to be kept in service); 60 × M-557; 199 × Bison; 269 × Grizzly; 651 × LAVIII Kodiak (494 APCs, 71 TOW under armour, 39 pioneer vehicles, 47 forward observation vehicles); Infantry Pistols: 9 mm FN 35; 9 mm C1. Sub-Machine Guns: 9 mm H&K MP5A2. Rifles: 5.56 mm C7; 5.56 mm C8; 7.62 mm FN-FAL; 7.62 mm Parker-Hale; 5.56 mm C9. Machine Guns: 7.62 mm FN-FAL/HB; 7.62 mm FN MAG; 7.62 mm Browning C1; 0.50 Browning M2HB. ATGW: 152 × TOW (including 72 TUA {TOW Under Armour} M-113); 425 × Eryx. Anti-Tank: 66 mm LAW; 1,100 × 84 mm Carl Gustaf; 100 × 106 mm RCL M40. Support Weapons: 2,527 × C7 40 mm grenade launchers. Artillery SP: 76 × 155 mm M-109 (58 operational); Towed: 180 × 105 mm M-101(C1/C3); 28 × 105 mm LG1. Mortars: 500 × 60 mm M19 mortar; 165 × 81 mm C3 mortar. Air Defence SAM: 22 × ADATS SP (10 with × Super Skyguard FCS); 110 × Javelin S15 (Starburst); AAA: 20 × twin 35 mm GDF-005. Army Aviation The army has no organic aviation, however the 10th Tactical Air Group, an Air Command element, is opcon to Land Force Command and consists of the following utility helicopters: 100 × Bell CH-146; 37 × Bell CH-135; 54 × Bell CH-136; 5 × Bell CH-118; 13 × Bell CH-113. Keep in mind that some of the above equipment is taken out of service or about to be....Such as our Leo's and M109's and most of our M113 vehs... My Webpage When you compare what we have now, to what they have no, there is more to comabt than a good IFV, plus you are forgetting thier Leo IIA5 is one of the best tank in the field today...I think the Danes could hold thier own in any conflict with Canada. Not that is going to happen...it is strictly a what if case at best...

Yaro: Your quote below is it not.... Yes the government has come out several times and informed the public on all operations within Afghanistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. Which is part of the War on terrorism? As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afghanistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our government DND does not act without the PM's authority. I gave you a link that was a press release to the public from the MND( Minister of National Defence) which clearly shows that the public was aware of our mission over in Afganistan. How is it that i'm clearly not aware of politics that go on between the military and Goverment....Canada's military leaders have maintained a huge distance from goverment for good reason, the goverment was using them as scape goats for everything that went wrong...this is changing with Hillier and the views of politions are slowly coming around in regards to the military.... Canadians are very capable of making up thier own minds with or without rhetoric. They have been doing it for years. The general is calling it like he see's it, and has stated only the truth that these terrorist will not be babied by our military . And our present goverment does not have a problem with it. If they did have a problem with it then they would have ordered the general silent...that has yet to happen.... Yes, but the present goverment is a liberal one is it not....and they don't have a problem with the general's comments, why should you.... Then why do you use it... I'd be curious to know just were you got the Pig farmers from sask info...as the Black Watch was a Montreal Que based unit....they did take volenteers from across Canada but you did say "mostly" did you not.... That is a questionable remark considering the company they were in. Such as the 1 st Para Bn, and lets not forget the SSF brigade....but lets not forget about the rest of the Regts involved in WW II.... As for your last remark your going to have to give me some referances to the slaughtering of thousands , and the mention of taking no prisoners. As i've have looked and can not find any ref or links... Your comment is still BS...like stating all plumbers have fat asses and wear pants that are to big to show off thier butt cracks....give me a break or some proof... In combat, yes i could kill an enemy soldier without thought, but not without regret does that make me a violent person, with anti- social behaviors.... Would you use deadly force if you had little chioce. does that make you anti- social or violent. what about other people such as cops, or persons that study marshall arts are they violent or anti-social, Hunters, fishermen all involved in killing something...... B.S Perhaps you do, but you've yet to prove that to me or the others...what you have proved is that you are full of yourself, considering there are many very informed individuals on this forum. Perhaps you could start another topic, one of your chioce and prove your mastery of the history Canadian military. I'm sure there is a few members on this board that can give you a run for your honourary title .. So you work within DND, perhaps you can give us a clear laymens diffination of anti socail behavior so it does become obvious...You are aware of the briefings we get yearly and before every tour to spot such behavior...Are you saying that we grunts just don't get it, or that the instructors are not passing on the correct subject matter.... I'm sure that is'nt mentioned on the recruiting adds "join the military and watch as we turn your sons and daughters into sociopaths...you make it sound like we eat sleep and dream about combat and killing and we are not fit to become a normal everyday citizens, that in any minute we could explode in rage and kill something or someone...The more you post the less i real think you know about the present military. In which ways.... It is not the same war or tactics, and not all the players are the same people....I personal think you give the US to much credit in the Afganis war with the russians. You make it sound like it's all past tense. the mission is still on going. As for the US abandoning Afgan over 18,000 troops is hardly abandoning.

Yaro: My Webpage The US already has three operational bases inside Afghanistan; the main logistical center for the US-led coalition in Afghanistan is Bagram Air Field north of Kabul - known by US military forces as "BAF". Observers point out that Bagram is not a full-fledged air base. Other key US-run logistical centers in Afghanistan include Kandahar Air Field, or "KAF", in southern Afghanistan and Shindand Air Field in the western province of Herat. Shindand is about 100 kilometers from the border with Iran, a location that makes it controversial. Moreover, according to the US-based think-tank Global Security, Shindand is the largest air base in Afghanistan. My Webpage Last December, US Army spokesman Major Mark McCann said the United States was building four military bases in Afghanistan that would only be used by the Afghan National Army. On that occasion, McCann stated, "We are building a base in Herat. It is true." McCann added that Herat was one of four bases being built; the others were in the southern province of Kandahar, the southeastern city of Gardez in Paktia province, and Mazar-i-Sharif, the northern city controlling the main route to central Afghanistan. Or this site that says they are considering building perment bases. My Webpage

canadian_conservative: I don't know where you got your info from but our capibilities and thiers are pretty comparable...they have a larger ground element , our airforces are roughly the same. and although thier navy is smaller but they have more subs, and thier ships are built for thick ice ours are not....

Yaro: Yes the govermant has come out serveral times and informed the public on all operations within Afganistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. which is part of the War on terrorism. As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afganistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our goverment DND does not act without the PM's authority. My Webpage It's funny how only a few on this board disagree on what was said by the General....The PM never commented, the Minister of Nation Defense never commented there for they must have agreed, would you not say so... Are you saying Canadians are not able to make-up thier own minds ...you certainly did...We allow them to make-up thier own minds on every other topic...except to when you take offense to what was said because he was not politically correct.... Lets state for the record we are talking about Canada's exploits. show me an example that would support your statement that Canadians have done things on par with the Taliban. such as Public excutions, be it by stoning or rifle,by fire,or by torture for minor offenses, such as trying to go to school,not wearing a veil,listening to music, reading a book, holding hands with the opposite sex.the list goes on....And if your saying they are scumbags why can't a general call a spade a spade, why is it rhetoric when he is simple stating the trurth.... This is your quote is it not.... And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people. Your right, you did not paint them all "just the vast majority" And no the military is not a race, however Racist remarks includes groups which the military is one of... so yes it is a racist remark...as for your last comment "While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best" Today is your lucky day, I am a current serving member of the Canada's military although i make no claim to being the brightest on the board i can hold my own when it comes to Canada's military and military history. Care to back any of those statements up with those "facts" I've been in the Infantry for just over 26 years now and recieved just about all the different training one can recieve. I'm not violent or do i pocess any Anti-social behaviors that you claim....nor i have i noticed any within my comrads in arms that would considered out of the norm with the rest of the population within Canada. And your talking about rhetoric, give me a break.... Yes it sounds like your one of our biggest fans .... You mean fighting terrorist, on thier ground instead of in Canada. Why is Afganistan so different than Bosina, or golan,or Rwanda, if we can help those that wanted to be helped bring some peace to the region some normalcy to the lives of the common Afgany is that so bad.... Any pionts we got were lost when we refused to fight in Iraq...we have proven to the rest of the world that we can and do make our own minds up on world affairs...Funny that i did not here any bad press when our soldiers were sent to Afgan or when they were awarded medals for bravery and valor by the US. Your right we could, but instead our goverment decided to use it's military forces to assist the US in thier fight again'st terrorism...If the people of Canada wanted a better or larger military it would say so with actions not words. it has not done that yet, the goverment knows this, plays on it, but like the people only pays lip service to it... I'm not saying that the people of Canada have not vioced thier opinions because they have...they have just not taken action to force the goverment to listen or act....

Yaro: Where are you getting your info from ?

Yaro: Perhaps you show everyone, Where Gen Hillier made policy? or has stated anything else that this goverment has not already made public in regards to our philosophical postion. One of the many jobs Gen Hillier has is to ensure the security of this country both home and abroad. his statements were targeted at his troops, while ensuring the rest of population that Canada's military was taking the job very seriously, and that the bad guys beware. The military has used the media althrough history, i don't understand why you have a problem with them using it now. because he called some terrorist scum bags....may i suggest you read up on some of the Taliban exploits and then tell me he is not right... Your last comment is a racist remark. You've painted everyone in Canadian military with one brush. It shows your that you have zero knowledge of Canada's military, it's history, or what they actually do. You should stick to subjects that you know about instead of insulting an entire group of professionals that give so much for this country and ask for nothing in return.

canadian_conservative: The Danes have already landed military forces on that Island during a brief exercise. which sends this message our military does not scare them and they are willing to use military force to back thier claim. Restructing our military will not give it more capabilities. DND is forced to Restructure because of the lack of funding. it is putting all it's eggs into force generation for missions like Afganistan...which in fact takes away from our ability to defend ourselfs here in Canada. The proof is in the recent northern exercise we had. operating in Canada's north requires men power and equipment that we don't have.

Sir Chauncy: Has anyone ever thought that his remarks were not targetted at the average Canadain citizen but to his soldiers in a language that we understand and respect. For someone who dislike insults your prettt free with them. What does make him an arrogant jerk, those few words he spoke, or his actions in Afganistan. or perhaps you agree with Parrishs words and we in the military are all just beasts....

Black dog: No, not exactly. Our orginal mission was to fight terrorist or taliban our role changed when we moved up north to help with the security of kabul...now our role is being changed again and the camp is moving down south around Kanadar, they will be running many different types of missions out of Kanadar, fighting the taliban,done by our JTF and regular army troops...the PRT's (provincal reconstructing teams) have a separate mission which is to rebuild infra structure etc and will not be doing any fighting unless engaged by the taliban... Yes, your right...however i've explained this before we do not arrest or detain persons unless they are caught red handed either in combat or about to engage in combat...

canadian_conservative: I'm talking about the Average Canadian and what they think. Security is the ability to protect your soveriegnty they are closely tied together but two completely different things. My piont is Canadians have paid security issues only lip service, and are of the opinion that "who would challange Canada's soveriegnty" and we don't need security. My question to you is that if we had the security forces required to protect our soveriegnty do you think Denmark would be landing military forces on this island. I did not say you could not care about both, just that the majority of Canadians have other priorities than security...Health care, education, to state a few, and there is little funding for all of it....

Black dog: Actually the debate has already happened, all that is happening is we are continuing on with the orginal mission, just in a different location. Yes, Canadain troops will be under US Command and control, that being said the Canadian commander does have a say in how they will be deployed. As for the POW's nothing has changed they are handed over to the US for processing.

The Kandahar Mission is much different than our current mission in Kabul. And the PRT (provincal reconstruction teams) are just a small part of the new mission. the main focus will be assisting the US in bringing the fight to the Taliban. There is no new money for DND, the monies the liberals promised will not even bring DND out of the red for another couple years, even then there will not be enough for any major purchase of any equipment....Don't let the liberals fool you with all thier promises in regards to DND...Gen Hillier is restructuring the dept so we can atleast carry on with our jobs with what little monies our goverment gives us.

Before we start warming up the military. Do Candians really care about soveriegnty or thier sucurity.

Black dog: Heavy lift aircraft are a strategic transport required for bringing in huge loads of equipment and supplies into rear bases. or for getting large amounts of equipment and supplies into areas very quickly like the recent deployment of the Dart team... The normal transport aircraft like the ones we have now the C-130B and H models are tactical transports much smaller loads and can use short unprepared runways closer to the frontlines. Canada does have a need for heavy lift aircraft just based on the size of our country, the amount of overseas deployments our Armed forces does, and the state of our current fleet of C-130's. Our fleet of herc's is taxed to the very limit just sustaining our troops in Bosina and Afgan. As for the russian equipment yes it 's cheaper but you get what you pay for. besides Russia is no longer producing the heavy lifters that we continue to rent. niether is the US producing the C-5. Someone mentioned the C-17 heavy lift aircraft earlier the last ones were offered at 150 milion a copy, however the British have leased some from the US. Perhaps Canada could lease some as well. Canada's military is going through it's current inventory and getting rid of or retiring everything that will not fit into a C-130. it is purchasing new equipment based on that however (which is another debate) it is very difficult to find light equipment that affords the same protection and fire power as the over sized equipment we have now... plus there is the fact that we have always deployed by ship where there is no weight or size limit...

Maybe he was'nt talking to Canadains but using the media to talk to his soldiers. Gen Hillier's comments were blunt and to the piont i think a few people have forgotten that he his not a polition but a Soldier. Parrish should take a trip on tax payers money over to Afgan and see for herself what those beast of Canada are doing in the name of our Flag.

Hugo: No Germany was not made to accept full blame for the war. Hungary and turkey both signed thier own treaties and were punished just as much as Germany....I don't recall saying it was unfair, the Versailles treaty along with the other treaties signed were to act as a deterent for another world war. Did they work not in germanies case. NO, that is not the same at all, your orginal comment was that no one from the Waffen SS served in concentration camps. which they did i've provided prove of that....The SS was a separate element, like the Army, navy, and airforce are separate element in our military, The Waffen SS were the military arm to that element. and comprised of a complete corp, normally made up of 3 or more divisions, in this case the St-TV was one of them dating back to 1940. it came under Waffen control completely by 1942...this division was almost completely wipe out in 1942 and it's replacements came from reg troops....and by 1944 SS personal were rotated through the camps.... All it proves is that Waffen SS persons did serve in concentration camps. Those pers that served in the other SS divisions were no angels either. each division having long lists of war crimes out of the dozens of SS division i think there was only 2 that had clear records... It proves that concentration gaurds were fighting in the Waffen SS in 1940. and refutes your claim that they were none serving in the waffen SS at all.

Hugo: But earlier you had said: QUOTE As for germany suffering from "war guilt" as you claim perhaps they should have thought of that before invading Belgium. They were responsiable for WW I, they knew the risks before they attacked, Germany got what it deserved nothing more nothing less. Earlier we were talking about Germany and Germany alone, hence why i said they were responsable for WW I, Your right i should have chosen my words more carefully. Yes i am, Germany was responsible for Millions of lives lost on all sides. As for Germany not starting the War, it did Bring War to Europe by declaring war on France and Belguim did it not ? It may not have had anything to do with what has been declared as the starting piont of WW I. But they did decided to widen it by taking action again'st France and Belguim. Yes the treaty of Versailles did punish Germany exclusively it was Germanies treaty....each of the nations involved had thier own treaties. And were pusished separately. Some of thosed treaties are mentioned in the link below....surf the site and you'll find alot more of the treaties and punishments that were given out. treaties I'll try this one more time, SS Was a separate element of the Nazi party ie like the army,navy,airforce etc.... The Waffen SS was a fighting formation within the SS. The SS-TV was a formation that controlled Concentration camps,etc etc....which also had fighting troops under it's command...due to it's rapid expansion they took the excess of fighting troops and built a SS-TV fighting division. This division along with everything else belonging to the SS-TV were then put under the Waffen SS control in 1940, in 1942 the Waffen SS had fully control over the Camps,etc,....But the SS-TV division was fighting within the Waffen SS organization in 1940. In the French campaign the Waffen SS provided the army with three divisions, and also several regiments. Senior army commanders proved quite receptive to the high level of enthusiasm and effectiveness that the SS troopers exhibited in combat. Even when soldiers from the SS Totenkopf Division—drawn from concentration camp guards—murdered more than one hundred British prisoners of war at the town of La Paradise on the Dunkirk perimeter in 1940, neither the army nor the SS took disciplinary action. How do you explain the above para.

Sparhawk: Yes, the somalia incident was done by a few misguided souls, that were infact Canadian soldiers. But there is more to this case than a simple murder. But you are right i failed to mentioned it. Thank you. In this case the institutions created more mess, with thier reaction.