Army Guy

Black dog: Good question ? Canadians are very liberal minded when it comes to anything military, war etc....with good reason....why did we enter the conflict on the war again'st terrorism and not the Iraq war ....Canadian soldiers are made up of those very same Canadian people. Why is it were are world reknown for peacekeeping, not our war abilities...I don't really know why we are so special but i am proud to be Canadian and doing what i do, and don't think i could do that for any other country... In my 25 years of service i've not seen it happen... i've been to some of the shittest spots on the globe, and Canadain soldiers have always acted professional and have never as a group brought shame to our country or flag.... but you are right it depends on training, and which wins out...and i hope Canadian soldiers continue to make the right chioces....And you are right civilized troops have commited crimes....

Hugo: Yes it is ,Germany intiated the war with France and Beliguim, and Yes i agree with you it did not intiate WW I. My statement has been along that Germany must be held responsable for it's actions. and only it's actions.... Your comment was a mutual defense agreement in the defense against a russian attack....does this give Germany rights to attack France, France had not been given time to react to the fact that Germany had entered war with russia.... Germany had taken that fact and sought to use war as a tool for it's own expansion.... The states of Germany, and Austro-Hungary. And i have had my eye on a BMW but that does not give the right to take one off the lot without paying for it....And what actions did france take to retake alsace-lorraine...Germany did take offensive actions to take France and Belguim, and for that part were punished... By the time World War II began the number of members rose to 250,000 and the Waffen-SS was formed in December 1940 to fight alongside the Wehrmacht, Germany's regular military. The SS also received control of the Gestapo in 1934 and, that same year, Adolf Hitler had given the SS jurisdiction over all concentration camps. The above quote is taken in the first link... By the summer of 1934, the SS had taken control of all concentration camps from the SA and a new organization, the SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS-TV) had been established as the SS Concentration Camp service. The original SS-TV was organized into six Wachtruppe at each of Germany’s major Concentration Camps. The Wachtruppe were expanded in 1935 into Wachsturmbann and again in 1937 into three main SS-Totenkopfstandarten. This structure would remain unchanged until 1941, when a massive labor and death camp system, in the occupied territories necessitated the concentration camps to be placed under the Waffen-SS into three main divisions of Labor Camps, Concentration Camps, and Death Camps. As this one is.... After 1934, the running of Germany's Concentration Camps was placed under the total authority of the SS and an SS branch known as the Totenkopfverbande (SS-TV) was founded under Theodor Eicke. Known as the "Death's Head Units", the SS-TV was first founded as several regiments, based at each of Germany's major Concentration Camps, the largest of which was at Dachau. In 1938, the Totenkopfverbande expanded also into a military division, with the founding of the Totenkopf division which would, by 1941, become a full division of the Waffen-SS. 1934 was a common year starting on Monday (link will take you to calendar). ... And this one: In 1942, for administrative reasons, the guard and administrative staff of all the concentration camps became full members of the Waffen-SS. Is this where you take your quote from....the above quotes more than prove that the Waffen SS had concentration gaurds in thier ranks as early as 1941... By 1944, with the Concentration Camps fully integrated with the Waffen-SS and under the control of the WVHA, a standard practice developed to rotate SS members in and out of the camps, based on manpower needs and also to give assignments to wounded Waffen-SS officers and soldiers who could no longer serve in front line combat duties. This rotation of personnel is the main argument that nearly the entire SS knew of the Concentration Camps, and what actions were committed within, making the entire organization liable for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Source from source 2 as you can plainly see it mentions 1942.... SS Division Totenkopf originally formed from excess (A penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined (usually under harsh conditions)) concentration camp guards, though most of these had been killed by 1942 after being encircled in the Valdai Hills on the Russian Front, and were replaced by ordinary volunteers not associated with the concentration camps. This taken from source number 3, clearly shows that in 1940 the totenkopf div was part of the waffen ss it even mentions they were made up of concentration guards how does that not prove my post.... In the French campaign the Waffen SS provided the army with three divisions, and also several regiments. Senior army commanders proved quite receptive to the high level of enthusiasm and effectiveness that the SS troopers exhibited in combat. Even when soldiers from the SS Totenkopf Division—drawn from concentration camp guards—murdered more than one hundred British prisoners of war at the town of La Paradise on the Dunkirk perimeter in 1940, neither the army nor the SS took disciplinary action. please re-read those links and you'll find they do support my argument...and totally disprove yours ....

Black dog: Isn't that exactly what you said? To wit: Yes it was but the state used false advertising i guess you can call it. Germany had full control of the media at the time, these young men and women were convinced that it was in thier best interest to serve germany, the Riech...what i have a hard time believing is that everyone of those germany soldiers thought it would be in the best interest for thier country and the Riech to kill women and children up close. In todays Canada the state does not control the media, OK all the media....i find it very hard if not impossiable thta the state could convince liberal minded Canadians it was all right to eleminate a race of people to include women and children. Your right i can not prove it, but basing my comments on my experiance, nor can it be proven that most did it out of blood lust.... They are reprogramed to a piont, even grossmen states facts and figures on how many troops even fired thier wpns during WW II some where around less than 40 % he even states that these numbers get better as time passes like korea numbers to up to just over 60 %....this is done at dehumanizing the enemy by comparing them to animals, insects, training is done on paper targets over and over again so at a distance that is what the soldier believes he is shooting at....the problem comes when the soldier actually sees the enemy dead up close. as a human being.... Grossman also states that they have not invented a perfect training method....But yes that is what the military does it beats the individual out of you then begins training you as a team. What it does not do is teach you to embrace killing or the need for destruction, you still need to function in society as a regular person.... what i've been saying is that this training is also reinforced with the rules of war the genva convention....to get todays Canadian soldiers to commit these crimes would mean a total reprograming

Blackdog: My piont, is that before these guys entered the service, they are subject to the states media machine, to entice these guys into volenteering they make no mention of killing civilians, women or children etc, etc, The media machine glorifies war making it sound like a game , to serve thier country and cause was honourable undertaking.... However once they are on the battle field or in the SS as we were talking about a soldier quickly finds out that war is not glories or full of honour....and that his orginal intentions change....he never signed up to kill women and children but does so out of fear..... That is just my piont in todays Canada do you think that the social prohibition over killing would ever change keep in mind Canada is a very liberal country. I've read the book we actually still use many of the training methods mentioned...However they've added alot into that training as well...such as the genva convention training, and through computerized training sims the who to target, and when to shoot seris...much like the police use.... One of the reasons it was modified was soldiers where having a hard time re adjusting to regular life...

Hugo: You are reversing your argument, Germany had a serveral chioces Not to invade in the first place, or once germany or the allieds had bled dry to offer a peace accord then pulling troops back to the orginal borders. Germany was looking at only one thing the conquest of France and Belguim and for that it was punshed. History proves you wrong. Hugo you do have good debating skills but when it comes to history you suck, or to use your words "an intellectual gaint you are not" Germany declared war on france first, on the 3 Aug 1914....france responded on the 4 Aug...Germany took the first step, by taking offensive operations against Belguim then into france. Theres an excuse for going to war. Not providing passage so Germany can strike at france....give me a break, Germany had it's eye on both countries for along time and used the Austro-hungary alliance as a reason to go to war. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't prove any of this and you have no evidence. Why? Because it's a lie. Your story runs completely counter to historical fact. This, again, is because it is a tissue of lies. Waffen SS waffen SS Waffen SS Your right it's all lies ,an elborate scheme made up by myself just to prove a piont. Hugo before you call me a lair read some of those web sites. reread your own sources.... Again when it comes to History you suck...

Black dog: AG, you need to take a look and see the logical inconsistencies in yiour argument. You say: QUOTE To answer your question again, i am very confident that the goverment of Canada would not ask me to intentionally commit the type of crimes that the Nazi did. Nor would they expect me to compromise any of my morals or values that i have as an adult raised in Canada. With that knowledge i serve Canada, and strongly believe that Canada will always be on the side of what is good. That is my motivation. Yet you also acknowledge the historical realities of Canadians being given official sanction to commit atrocities here: QUOTE even Canadian troops took little SS troops prisoners after they had excuted over 150 Canadian soldiers during D-Day No i never said they were given offical sanction. I said little SS prisoners were taken by Canadians after troops heard of the excutions during D-Day. I did not once indicate that Canadians kill any SS that were in the process of surrendering. ( I said little SS prisoners were taken by Canadians after troops heard of the excutions during D-Day.) They did not afford the enemy time to surrender, by bringing overwhelming firepower to bear in all situations...wiping them out before they had a chance to do anything.... Again i did not say they excuted any SS prisoners, what i did say is very few were taken prisoner, If you continuely press the enemy he does not have time to surrender. Until his postion is wiped out.through overwhelming firepower...SS prisoners were taken, that is a piont of history....Once a soldier indicates he wants to surrender then regardless he falls under the genva convention....and must be handled as a prisoner....

Black dog: There are none, slip of the finger,it was suppose to be 150 persons. sorry for the misunderstanding. However that does not say that those numbers that are reported missing even today were not killed or for that matter even dug up and disposed of else where. Why is it so hard for people to think that the serbs who killed thousands in Bosina would not do the same thing in Kosovo. digging them up hidding the evidance. early grave what does this imply then ... Yes. And I'm not saying it's a phenomenon limited to Germans, given the number of atrocities committed on a daily basis by military personnel. Those ROE's were not set incordance with the Genva convention. which clearly states that regardless of any orders given a soldier is responsiable for his actions if he carry's them out. Like i said before Canadian soldiers are taught what the genva convention is and what the ROE's are before entering an area of operations, if orders came down to wipe out a village or shot civilains it would be questioned at the highest level, and i'm certain that Canadian soldiers would not adhere to those orders.... Yes history is full of examples. but that does not prove that all soldiers are willing commiting these crimes all it proves is that some are or some countries are....And yes it is a matter of faith that i believe that Canadian troops in todays era would not willing kill women or children or carry out atrocities, like those that the Nazi did, it has to be a matter of faith as my life depends on other Canadian soldiers and thier actions..... The military spends alot money in training, to get a soldier to fire his wpn agains't an known enemy....But to kill a unarmed women or child i can not think of a circumstance that would convince me. which leads me to believe your the same. but i'm curious what that circumstance would be ?

Hugo: So what your saying in for a penny in for a pound, that they were going to fight aslong as Germany was capable of fighting. That Germany could not stop the war even if it wanted to.? I'm saying that Germany could have stop all the carnage any time it wanted to by simple pulling it's troops back to the orginal borders. That Germany and Germany alone has to take responsabilty for it's decision to attack France and belguim. But thier actions clearly show that the prize was worth the millions that had died. They wanted to conquor france and belgium and force it's will upon those people. And why in good god's name would have anyone allowed Hilter go unpunished for his deeds and allow the nazi's peace. Again what has that got to do with Germany attacking France and Belguim. It was not part of germany agreement with Austro-hungary. But clearly shows that Germany attacked with the objective of conquoring these two nations on top of helping Austro-hungary. So that excuses Germany for taking offensive operations on France and belguim. lets call a lemon a lemon shall we. Germany took it upon it self to attack those to countries. and used the Hustro-hungary agreement to borden the WAR. that drew alot more countries into it... NO, the fact remains that the WAFFEN SS was made up of several different types of units,which included Concentration gaurds, labour camp gaurds, etc,etc, that alot of these troops had commited terriable crimes again'st humanity...I'm not saying that all those Waffen SS troops were involved in those crimes just that alot were. and may not have had the same devotion to country and Hilter as they once did. Most if not all had testified that they themselfs were afraid for there own lives and being killed for not carry out any orders. (yes i am aware that not many were) however if you were part of an organization that killed thousands on a daily bases you would believe these threats as real. I do agree with you that alot of generals and allied commanders did praise those SS units for being elite, and legendary in the acts in combat. But in respect for that what chioce did they have. Most allieds did not take to many SS prisoners, Russian troops took no SS prisoners, even Canadian troops took little SS troops prisoners after they had excuted over 150 Canadian soldiers during D-Day...so as the thier motivation were did it lay..with themselfs and just trying to stay alive, or were they truely devoted to Hilter and the Reich as you say... To answer your question again, i am very confident that the goverment of Canada would not ask me to intentionally commit the type of crimes that the Nazi did. Nor would they expect me to compromise any of my morals or values that i have as an adult raised in Canada. With that knowledge i serve Canada, and strongly believe that Canada will always be on the side of what is good. That is my motivation.

Black dog: Oh and as for your claims about the percision of NATO airstrikes, I just came across this: The Kosovo cover up civ watch Serb media mistakes. The above links seem to paint another picture, again your only seeing one side of the story, Yes i agree with you some civilians did die as a result of the bombings. according to the links above some 500 individuals can be linked to NATO bombing mistakes, or accidents. The bottom link is in relation to your claims that NATO A/C attacked a civilian convoy, that the SERBS actually have cockpit conversation to prove thier claim. Highly unlikely as NATO takes great care and alot of monie pumped into equipment to ensure Radio transmissions are not picked up by anyone that is not intended to hear them....encrypted,freq hoping etc etc..all the serbs would have gotten is static.... legal aspects. I never said there weren't atrocities: quite the opposite. However, there's no evidence they were on the scale NATO said they were. Oh and two BBC articles you link to support my thesis that the major atrocities were spurred by the NATO air campaign: 120 dead is indeed a horrific tally, no question. It was indeed a war crime. However, it was not genocide. Military personal are not the only people that have a hand in war atrocties, civilians, goverment officals, So basical what your saying is that "all " military personal are evil. Whats that say about Canadian values and morals as Canada's military is made up of Average Canadians. The training we (Canadian soldiers ) have recieve todate strictly enforces the RULES of engagements, Soldiers are not allow to think outside the box when it comes down to these rules. Soldiers also recive extensive training before going on any operation these rules are gone over thousands of times until they are instinctive....those rules are taken from the Genva convention and Candian law... Candian soldiers also recieve extensive training on lawful orders and unlawful orders. they are taught to distinguish between the two, and what actions to take when given an unlawful order. I could not think of ANY circumstances that would exist today that could make a Canadian soldier to comit those acts that Nazi troops did. Do you think that YOU would be able to commit these crimes under any circumstances.

Black dog: dgpa-dgap.mil.ca/Transcr/2000Jun/00061201.htm TOPIC/SUJET: One year after the Kosovo conflict 3300 people remain missing AGENCY/AGENCE: CTV NEWSNET DATE-TIME/DATE-HEURE: 12 07h00 Jun 00 REFERENCE: 00061201 One year after the Kosovo conflict the Red Cross says more than 3300 people remain missing. Hundreds of bodies have been found in mass graves and between 60 and 80% of them have been identified. So your telling me this photo is false, your telling me that this team an RCMP team filed a false report. My Webpage and none of this happened as well. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/674056.stm and you say they can not find the bodies. news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/pristina.stm My Webpage My Webpage There are more web sites avail but they contain very graphic pictures of the dead. and you already know my opion on that. however just those numbers alone add to more than 2000 dead. as you claim. UN res My piont is that if there was edvidance that any person that was providing info, or assistance to the enemy that interment would be a wise decision. i clearly stated that i did not agree with interment. It is one thing to go along with party lines, it is another to pull the trigger on an infant and still at the end of the day honestly believe it would make you a better person, or it was in the service of your country....There was a written and verbal penalty that refusing orders could result in death...was it followed in cases of refusing to kill civilians is another matter... why is that perhaps it suggest that it could not be enforced, even the HQ's knew it was not right to slaughter the innocent....Are you suggesting that all germanies troops knew what they may have to do in the way of killing innocent people and chalked it up to service for there country....and embraced it as all part of being a soldier....does not say much for the german people does it...that they are all stone hard killers.... Because , i am a Canadian soldier, and have worked with hundards of Canadian soldiers in places were commiting war crimes is common place and yet Canadian soldiers have remained professional, and always made the right decisions. I am postive that you could not convince a Canadian soldier to line up women and children and excute them like animals. Why is it so hard for you to accept that ....

Black dog: No, but the members of NATO are and can be charged with crimes if they can be proved. regardless of the country of orgin of the complianant... And i agree with you 100% , that because crimes are not proscuted does not mean they did not take place...But you have yet provided any proof that crimes did actually happen....All i said was that NATO did not intentional bomb civilian targets...not to sound cold but thier is going to be civilian cas in any conflict. you can not with 100% guarente hit what your shooting at. This conflict had already gone through all the diplomatic channels to get the Serbs from killing albanians and yet the refused....are you saying we should have left it at that and let the killing continue....Armed force was required to get them to final stop....who defends the rights of the albanians... Being morally responsable for those deaths has nothing to do with war crimes. and what choice did the serbs leave NATO.... Yes it was, but the KLA was not supported by NATO or KFOR troops that were on the ground after the air campaign. Yes i know what the Serb's claim ....all BS... Again BS, RCMP uncovered a mass grave of over 1500 persons that dated back some 3 months before the air campaign. that was an entire village and everyone in it....this find was one of the largest....Are you making excuses for the serbs and do you believe that it is alright for one side to ethic cleanse another.... So what you are saying that no one of those interned did not pass on info to the enemy, they were not sypathic to thier home country. and would not commit any crimes again'st Canada or her allieds. As you say just because thier is no edvidance did not mean it did not happen. For the record i do not agree with the goverment decision to intern them either. My piont is this, The Nazi party had complete control over all media, in doing so they had made the SS the unit to inspire to, the in thing to join...There was no mention of the slaughter of women and children in thier recruitment ads....just glory and honor on the battle field...they had no idea that they were going to be asked to commit crimes. I'm not backing away from any aurgument. but trying to show you orginally they did join for the same reason most soldiers do...however can you tell me that when forced with killing women and children their whole outlooked did not change. was it still the same country and party that they had been lead to believe..... This is true, there is not many cases that SS soldiers were excuted for not carring out orders... those that did refuse were sent away ASAP to not cause anymore of the same behavior. But let me ask you this, if a murder says he is going to kill you if you don't obey his every word, and you've seen him kill before would you not believe him...or would you be willing to call his bluff....Which brings me back to this if that soldier believed he would die for not commiting these crimes, does he stll believe in the cause, the Nazi party or is he doing it just to stay alive....That is the difference in a Canadian soldier, and a Nazi soldier...I'm not forced by order of death to do anything. and those that did ceased being soldiers and became murders with a uniform.

Crazy cunuck: I never once said that Germany had no fault in the war. Dont put words in my mouth. Of course they did. What does your above statement suggest. Nor did i state that Germany was solely responsable for WW I. the previous posts we were talking about Germany, and only Germany hence my statement, sorry for the confussion. No France did not have to go to war, but they are entitled to defend themselfs, let me ask you a question do you defend yourself if a thug is smacking you ? Are you to blame for someone else actions.... England had a defense pact with France, and they were being attacked by germany. Explain to me why Germany had to attack France and Belguim in the first place. To answer your question, NO one had to go to WAR. unless you want to give into those thugs and bend to thier will ,what right did Germany have to attack...france and belguim remember your the history buff and i know nothing. Actually me and Black dog already had this debate. arabs So as you can see be the mid 1920's british and french ottomen territory had been divided and the arabs looked after. How can you say they did nothing. You want to debate then fine debate, but leave this you don't know crap to someone else. so far the only person that has proven any lack of knowledge of the topic is you sir, I've given you sources and ref's if you had read all the posts. as for my argument that germany is reposnable for it's actions in WW I prove me wrong.

Hugo: Perhaps you can show me in History, other than 1916 where Germany was even interested in peace, Germany was not going to give-up any territory it had gained. Based on an actual comment or peace agreement that was offered. Germany had started offensive operations in central europe if the above conditions were such a major factor Why ? did they not sue for peace at that time. Or was it they were bent on capturing europe and defeating the allies, because they still had hope they could win... (As for germany suffering from "war guilt" as you claim perhaps they should have thought of that before invading Belgium. They were responsiable for WW I, they knew the risks before they attacked, Germany got what it deserved nothing more nothing less.) Let me rephase my orginal comment, we all know how WW I started, however Germany is responsable for it's actions it took during WW I. Show me how Austro- Hungary/ Germany defense agreement forced germany to attack France and Belguim.....Are you telling me that germany is not responsiable for deciding to attack these countries. WHY did Germany not have sued for peace at this time ? "likely to reach a peace agreement" Your opinion....History has proven you wrong.... Because German actions prove otherwise, putting thier troops on the western front to continue the WAR ....They knew the US troops were going to arrive shortly and it would prolong the WAR....WHY not sure for peace at this time ? because they knew there was still a chance to defeat the allies on the battle grounds they wanted it all....not peace but all there gains ....Again show me in history anything different....if you can't why should germany not be held responsable for thier part in WW I. Yes, i will agree with you but it is not the only problemn facing germany at the time. the below link will give you some more insitew to why the german people were ready to foolow Hilter and the Nazi party. fall of germany And yet who is the first people you phone when there is trouble ...let me guess the stooges of the state...as is the fire dept, ambulance ,hospital,. You've already stated on this forum that you personal will not use force to protect you or your family...but have also stated that it is alright for someone else to use deadly force...So i have to ask why the grief over police persons.... Next? How about first? You haven't addressed my point at all! You stated that Canadian forces pilots intentional bombed civilians and NON-military targets. you have not proven that they have , do you have a copy of all flight plans and target lists. NO you do not...if you did the world court would be very interested as so would i. what you are basing your comments on is a report from the Serbian goverment making claims it could not support in court....or the goverment of Canada and those pilots would be in court today...you and others on this board have a uncanny ability to piont your fingers and believe everything negative printed. if you put in as much effort in finding out the entire truth you have very little to complain about. The Waffen SS was also made up of concentration camp gaurds, forced labour forces. Why don't you atleast try and read the sites i gave Black dog, i have more if you would like.

Black dog: But how far did it make through the world courts system and why has Canada not been charged with war crimes. NATO did take care to ensure all targets were legimate. Above is my orginal question, WHY has Canada not been offically charged with war crimes, Why has the world court not pursued this? Your site on NATO's bombing blunders. did you actually read all those articles, there is no proof that NATO intentional targeted those sites,They are very unfortunate accidents or mistakes. You are forgetting that most of these Aircraft were engaged by Serbian air defense forces making bombing more difficult. I find it a bit ironic that serbia had the balls to charge anyone with WAR crimes, this coming from a country that would bomb and mortar it's own people and blame another to gain sympathy in the world press. Again unfortunate accidents happen in WAR and that is what they are unfortunate accidents not WAR crimes...the ethic cleanising of Albanians by Serbian troops was a WAR crime. As for your claim on DU ammuntions Canada does not use DU wpns or muntions. The link i provided you shows pictures of RCMP members and forenstic personal working in a mass grave of which was a small one just over 300 old men,women, and children....killed by the serbain army...something else they claimed never happened...it was the reason NATO bombed in the first place. they continued thier cleansing up until Serbia sued for peace... Dresden,berlin,etc etc happened when during WW II, my orginal claim was after WW II. That being said, regardless of who started the bombing of civilian centers they were terrorist attacks we have covered this already. and i agree those that had ordered these attacks should have been tried as War crimals. As for you comment on other war crimes can you elborate, the excution of POW's i'm not aware of this, i do know of the unoffical order not to take any SS prisoners, after the excution of Canadian soldiers during D-Day. The interment of Japanese, and German Canadians was an attempt by all the allieds to control those that were actually working for the enemy. right idea, wrong excution. This practice continued through most of the war, but in the end, from 1944 onwards facing manpower shortages, Waffen-SS units received conscript replacements drawn from disbanded Luftwaffe or Navy units or labour battalions. While these were conscripts and often lacked any (An army unit consisting of soldiers who fight on foot) infantry training before being thrown into combat, some SS units exhibited very high morale and comradeship until the very end of the war Waffen SS waffen ss Both these links prove that waffen SS were not only part of the elite fighting formations but also in fact part of the Concentration camps system, forced labour BNs ETC ETC.. The Waffen SS was also made up of concentration camp gaurds, forced labour forces, can you honestly sit there and tell me that someone could shoot hundreds of jews in one day and believe it was right , believe it was for the betterment of his country, is that why they had such a high turn over rate....because they had high moral.... There is no doubt that when they first enlisted that there belief that they were jioning an elite unit was true and that they did have an unwavering belief in hilter and the NAZI party. take that same soldier tell him that it is his duty now to take part in the masacre of women and children at the end of the day do you think he is still has the same unwavering belief, or is he now surrending to his fears that he himself could be killed for not performing his duty....

Hugo: Yes Canada's military aircraft did partake in air operations over serbia and kosovo...."military quote" .....During the air campaign our air elements conducted over 678 sorties or I should say 2,500 plus hours of flying time. Next. These sorties we’re talking about air to ground operations. And about – and the various types of air patrols that took place. This is at the peak of the war. It was a 78-day war that took place. and yes they did attack military targets, and yes thier was collateral damage. But all targets were legiment. Nice example...But how far did it make through the world courts system and why has Canada not been charged with war crimes. NATO did take care to ensure all targets were legimate. My Webpage My Webpage Which is why we would take wpns off the KLA, and destroy them. My Webpage Yes we are saintly, and it is only ridiculous because you can not prove me wrong, you see that is your problem you simply can not believe that Canadian soldiers are professional , they did but if you read my orginal claim i did specify after WW II. The Waffen SS was also made up of concentration camp gaurds, forced labour forces, can you honestly sit there and tell me that someone could shoot hundreds of jews in one day and believe it was right , believe it was for the betterment of his country, is that why they had such a high turn over rate....because they had high moral....

crazy cunuck: Your right, you have made it clear that you have not read all the posts pertaining to this debate. and have come in half cocked, not knowing what we were talking about. let alone what you are talking about, was it not england and france that divided up the ottoman territories into what is know today as Jordan,Israel, etc etc...and yet you claim that they did nothing....hence why i said try again. you must be a copy of hugo because only he gets to ask any questions,but he does not like answering any of them...Any one with "ANY" knowledge of history can say that germany is responsable for it's own actions. How can you being a self proclaimed history buff, say that germany had no fault in WW I, and it had no other chioces available to it besides WAR.

Crazy Canuck: You failed to show me where they had no chioce but to invade. Are you telling me that the German goverment of the time is not responsiable for it's actions because of an alliance? And they had no chioce but to go to War, and attack france and belguim. My Webpage Just how is Belguim and France tied to this act. And where does that give Gemany the right or excuse to attack them ? Other than the fact Germany was looking to expand it's territory. Each country is reponsable for it's own actions No one forced them to attack anyone, other actions were available and they did not take them or persue them they wanted an excuse to go to war. My Webpage and My Webpage Thats not what wilson had said. see below. "When the United Stated declared war on Germany in April 1917, Wilson targetted the militaristic German government but absolved the German people of responsibility, calling for joint peace efforts and the liberation of all nations from tyrants." Try again please. Thats your opinion, not one of historical fact. over 9 million people had died in WW I and they wanted to ensure it did not happen again "remember the war to end all wars". and your statement of it resulted in the Nazi's coming to power again is your opinion not historical fact. you have left out alot of the details on why the Nazi party came into power. Stop making excuses for Germany,you make it sound like they had no other chioces,,,,, they acted on thier own accord when they crossed into Belguim and France. they had thier own interests in mind. they took a risk and suffered the outcome. it is not i that need a history leason but you sir.

Hugo: Perhaps you can show me in History, other than 1916 where Germany was even interested in peace, Germany was not going to give-up any territory it had gained. The allieds were not going to accept anything less than a total withdrawal from all occupied lands... As for germany suffering from "war guilt" as you claim perhaps they should have thought of that before invading Belgium. They were responsiable for WW I, they knew the risks before they attacked, Germany got what it deserved nothing more nothing less. They could of stop all the carnage at any time. How can "you "be making excuses for germany when "you" have clearly stated your opinion against violence....Show me where Germany had no chioces but to invade any country be it WW I or WW II. The US decided to enter the War in 1917, thier first troops did not arrive until june 1917, and did not enter combat until end Oct 1917. You make it sound like the US troops won the war. Yes they did contribute, the US decision to enter the war caused Germany to launch 5 major offensives which were mostly failures stopped by allieds already on the ground....this eat up a good portion of thier reserves leaving nothing to stop the allieds and thier counter attacks. They would have lost the War with out the US involvement, and still suffer total defeat. Then who would you blame......something that nobody but the germany goverment can take responsiabilty for. The Nazi party rose to power because of a corrupt goverment nothing more and the people wanted change.... My Webpage You have not proven anything, other than you are saying it is all right for any country or group or person to use force to take what they want , and that we are to turn the cheek and bend to thier wishs....to prevent the further loss of life.... My piont is that sometimes the use of violence is the only way to solve problems...such as WW I and WW II....If the allieds had stood together and taken action again'st the Nazi's when the first broken the treaty the Nazi party could have been contained... police, firemen, rescue ops, forrest fire fighters are not civilians. They are professional that risk there lives for normal every day civilians. Ask a police offcer what a civilain is. It is a term used by the above professionals to refer to those that are not like them. So now tell me how do you risk your life in service of the greater whole. More to follow.

Hugo: I like to know how you came to that conclusion ? Are you saying that wilsons actions are responsiable for the WW II. What of the failure of democracy in germany during the period that lead up to WW II ? It sounds like you clearly place the blame on the US, What of germanies responsabilities in all this. War is controlled by ALL goverments involved, there decisions effect every aspect of war, and it's outcome. I have not once stated that War is not full of misery, and death ....I have told you on many occasions that there was alot more to being a soldier than combat. The difference is what expected of them in the service of thier country. The Canadian goverment has not nor will not order it's people or soldiers to commit crimes such as the one i pionted to above... Canadian soldiers know what is right and what is wrong, both morally and lawfully, they also know that each individual is responsable for thier own actions and will be held accountable. There is many checks and balances put in place to ensure that unlawful acts are reported , or unlawful commands are not carried out. You would have an extremely hard time convincing a Canadian soldier or for that matter any Canadian to commit the crimes that the Nazi's did. As for them actually believing it was in the service of thier country for the betterment of the country...i don't believe they honestly believed that and those that did commit those crimes , I would say most done it out of fear rather than in the service of... Germany has invaded Europe not once but twice, the allies wanted to ensure that it did not happen again, hence the occupation force made up by all the allied powers.. Group A wants the territory of Europe, for it's own it does not want the people that inhabit said territory...it wants to impose thier will totally through War and occupation.... Group B destroys group A, divides group A's country because they don't play nice in the sand box...Europe is in shambles Group B assists it's allies in getting on thier feet, plus rebuilds Germany in the process. Today the European union is a powerful organization that is only getting stronger...Today Germany is no longer occupied, and is a powerful member of the European union. Give me some examples of thier tyranny,injustice,oppresion, extortion, lets not forget about It steals, it murders, it kidnaps, it enslaves, it defrauds, it counterfeits, millions of times, every single day. If it is happening millions of times every day then examples should be easy to find... No i mean i serve the Queen and the country of Canada and all it's citizens within her. In your life time when has the Canadain military been called out by our goverment to defend injustice, to opress the people, or to extort them. Are you making this up as you go ? Again i ask you why do you stay, why did "you" choose to become a Canadian citizen...Because it is one of the best in a long list...or is it because we are so liberal minded that we are the only ones that will listen. I'm awake, I'm a proud Canadian,I'm proud of what i do again, pretend you're a Waffen SS soldier, and it all reads exactly the same. Canada's commitment to maintaining peace might not be a noble goal for you but for the majority of Canadians it is. And for the majority of Canadians they are proud of thier military, and it's members that serve within it..The excuting of innocent men,women and children for no reason is nothing to be proud of...

Hugo: It seems that again you are the only one that can ask the questions ............. Perhaps I did not make myself clear before. I will say it again. QUOTE I am getting really tired of this. I'm not going to answer any further questions on this topic as long as you refuse to extend the same courtesy to me. In debate, both parties ask questions and are equally entitled to have them answered. If you are just going to question me, this stops being a debate and turns into a mentor-student session. To bad you can't follow your own advice..... Most countries did yes. However those conscripts were all given the same opitions of getting out of conscription also mentioned in previous posts. And yes a great many did die in the service of thier country, for thier goverment, and for the safety of the people within it...If they had not fought but instead turned the other cheek and told them them we refuse to fight....you Sir would be goose stepping somewhere in Europe today...., and we would not be having this exchange of thoughts.... But instead the country mobilized everyone. Yes, some would have perfered to do something else, but they went and fought so that they could survive as an organized group, culture, country what ever you want to call it....and yet you have the gall to question what was the difference between what the Nazi's did to the human race in thier name of one man...Hilter and what the allied powers did to save the rest of the human race.....You question every soldiers sacrifice, conscription or not they all sacraficed something so that you and me would have a better future....Unless you think that the world requires the NAZi's in it...complete with death camps and ovens belching thick smoke as another race becomes extinct... The difference between the two is ONE group had decided that they would stand up and stop this group of NAZI's from impossing thier will on most of Europe...and they were willing to sacrifice thier citizens to do so....the Nazi's we taking the world piece by piece and killing all those that did not fullfill the master race description. You paint all soldiers with the same brush, and nothing i say will change your mind or your opinion ..When as the last time in history that a Canadian soldier walked up to any one and excuted them for no reason other than they had a star on thier clothes, .... When was the last time a Canadian soldier kicked down your door and hauled off a member of your family to be excuted, interned, or beaten .... Delivering humanitarian supplies, keeping them from being hijacked by warlords so they can sell it on the black market...like in Somolia ....keeping warring parties apart, keeping warring parties from committing war crimes such as the medak pocket in Bosina...or hunting down terrorists or insurgents in Afgan...Every where we go, we do it armed...and yes some of those people do percieve us as a threat the pay off is seeing starving people get to eat for the first time in a week... or saving someones life when the Croat's were killing everyone in the village... Yes i defend the goverment, and i also defend ALL the people within her.... This is Canada we are talking about is it not...Here i thought we were one of the best countries to live in...If you are so disillusioned with this country why don't you move....Why do you remain here... why are you a Canadian citizen... I'm awake, I'm a proud Canadian,I'm proud of what i do ,and Canada's contributions to those more unfortunite than us. ... I do not wish to live anywhere else in the world...Do we have a perfect system in which we all co exist....no...but today we have one of the best around ...

Black dog: This is but one respected mans opinion, and Yes the Net is full of opinions the pros and cons of being a soldier. It took this man 33 years and 4 months to come to the conclusion that Not All goverments make the right decisions. He also quotes "Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service." Yet he fails to mentioned WHY? he volenteered in the first place, or WHY he continued to serve for 33 years. This quote is false, he could have changed his fate in many ways,by getting out of the military, etc.etc. And how does this relate to todays Canadian Armed Forces or being a soldier in it....And how does this tie into yours and Hugo's argument of not having a present day goverment system period...He also quotes that he has a soldier is still willing to defend his country,if attacked or for the bill of rights (written by the goverment and accepted by the people).

Hugo: I shake my head in wonder, I've taken the time to re read all the posts on this topic, and there has been mistakes made on both sides, mine and yours. I'd assumed that you had said Dieppe, i even wrote that out serveral times on different posts ..I asked you to verify your dates and statement serveral times as there was discrepancies ....Instead you niether took the time to read those posts nor did you bother to correct them when you had the chance saving us all this time and effort.... You had used the post of your grand father to make a piont, that the state had forced him into serving his country....Britain we find out later...when the topic was Canadian and US soldiers...Thanks for clearing that up.... Your grandfather did have opitions, He could have declared himself a CO, or gotten into a restricted job listed below....So if he had been FORCED into the military he still had options including leaving his country and become a draft dodger, (not punished by death) Desertion is only after you have accepted military duty and leave your unit while in combat...With all these opitions available to him do you still think he did what he did because he was forced or on his own accord...And if he did it on his own accord WHY ?because he shares the same opinions as you , Or he believes in his country... Any other WWII history you're confused about? Yes, your dates are off slightly again, not 1938 but 1939, read below it makes a big difference because the British Military could not possiable train all those that signed up right away....providing your Grandfather was one of the first in line he could have been on the Battle of Dunkirk. Does not like the actions of a person who did not want to go i mean rush down thier to register and everything...sounds like those are the actions of a man that believe in Duty, country, and honor... During the 1930s some men still chose to enter the armed forces after leaving school and in 1937 there were 200,000 soldiers in the British army. The government knew that this was not enough to fight a war with Germany and in April 1939 introduced the Military Training Act. The terms of the act meant that all men between the ages of 20 and 21 had to register for six months' military training. At the same time a list of 'reserved occupations' was published. This listed occupations that were essential to the war effort and stated that those employed in those jobs were exempt from conscription. Reserved Occupations Dock Workers Miners Farmers Scientists Merchant Seamen Railway Workers Utility Workers - Water, Gas, Electricity When war broke out in September 1939, some men volunteered to join the armed services, but Britain could still only raise 875,000 men. Other European countries had kept conscription between the wars and were able to raise much larger armies than Britain. In October 1939 the British government announced that all men aged between 18 and 41 who were not working in 'reserved occupations' could be called to join the armed services if required. Conscription was by age and in October 1939 men aged between 20 and 23 were required to register to serve in one of the armed forces. They were allowed to choose between the army, the navy and the airforce My Webpage Here is your opening remarks, sounds like an attack to me..There is not to many postive things in any of your quotes.. If you actually read all my posts again you'll see what it is that Canadian soldiers do every day in the servce of thier country, not for extra money, not for recogintion, but because they honestly believe that it is in service of thier country. They believe in DUTY, Country, and honor just as much as you believe in being a pacifist, They believe that they are defending Canada and ALL her citzens "including you Hugo" If your as smart as you think you are then you know exactly what i mean by Duty,country and honour. I'm not asking you to believe in it, or even understand it....as i don't understand how you can believe in pacifism...i am a realist, and i've seen first hand what happens to people when they don't fight back.... And yet you criticise me because i might have to use deadly force to protect me, my section, or any one else under my protection....but that would be different if i used deadly force to protect you and yours... I know because Canada does not exist....and this is a perfect example of how you respond to all your posts with more questions what is a country,what is rights,, etc,etc, ...But it is one sided you can ask questions but not myself...and when i ask the questions you respond with your Intellectual superior self serving answers this is a debate not a student / teacher period...as you know full well what i meant by Canada (the Goverment of Canada).

Hugo: No, it is not, you said you would protect your family, friends and property...you did not say you would use deadly force to protect them....spell it out for all to see... When was the last time the Canadian goverment waged war agian'st it citizens... No, you were bullsh*ting me , to use false info to reinforce your statements. that he was forced into joining the army "period". And that because he suffers from PTSD his efforts were not worth it, and he is not a better person for it. It also goes to show that if you had BS me once to prove your pionts or opinions how many other times have you done that. I have explained them to you clearly. It is you that will not accept them. Duty, honour, and Country are not hollow words to most Canadians, they are who we are ,what we are and why we do the things we do. I don't recalling claiming any right to kill people, nor have i cliamed that i have killed people. I have not contended that soldiers are better than civilians but better than most ordinary people. Lets start with thour national anthem shall we in case you forgot the words are below. O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. I am a Canadian citizen, therefore Canada is my country, It is repeated in my oath of allegiance, No i do not own it, but am a part of it. The constitution of Canada has given those powers to the goverment which it turns gives them to me. A country, a land, or a state, is a geographical area and an independent political entity with its own government, administration, laws, often a constitution, police, military, tax rules, and people....It's purpose is to allow a large group of people a way of living together, under the same rules and rights.It is identifiable in the sense it is clearly marked on maps,there is our flag,and it's people. What nerfarious deeds have i commited...or for that matter what nefarious deeds have Canada commited. Which brings me to this piont if you are so anti goverment, anti democratic, anti everything really, why are you still living in Canada. why are you not in antartica proclaiming your own state or nation...without goverment... Because it would give me more insite into why, and how you form your opinions...perhaps understand you better...or is it you feel more comfortable attacking me or my opinions because you know i'm a canadian soldier... Can you show me anywhere that i said i was going to judge you...i believe i said to understand how you are forming your opinions.And yes you have stooped to Ad hominem fallacies. I made the claim that soldiers were better than most ordinary citizens...you reply impossiable how could any one that murders a person be better...then comes the wife beating ,drunks, and assault charges...not to mention your out right lies about your grandfather to further prove a piont... Description of Ad Hominem Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person." An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form: Person A makes claim X. Person B makes an attack on person A. Therefore A's claim is false. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Black dog: The UN declaration did not create the rights it contains anymore than the U.S Declaration of Independance, the Charter, the Magna Carta etc. The rights and rreedoms these documents articulate are self-evident. Then whom created these rights and freedoms, have we found the 11 th tablet handed down to Moses....and if we all know or they are self evident then why would the goverments have to reinstate those rights and freedoms on a document if it was not thier intention to proclaim them as thier own...to tell it's citizens here are your rights and freedoms....that we guarantee....in fact laying down the ground rules.... The goverment has already given you permission by stating that here is the rights and freedoms we guarantee you should have...(according to Hugo they curtail those rights you mentioned as well) There not, if you decide to imigrate to another country, how would you decide which one you wanted to move to..Spin the globe and piont or do some research and check out what is like to live there...having a good set of rights and freedoms can be used as a marketing tool....to attract new people....as for the actual ownership of rights and freedoms does it matter ...if they are controled by the state.... One people, one nation, one leader, what he forgot was one vioce....did hilter ever consult the people about anything...was there an opposition party....(there was but they seem to disappear) The main trait was that the individual was to serve the state (in those cases the state was Hilter, or Stalin) and they ruled to serve themselfs....not the people... I agree ..power can corrupt that is why in my opinion democracy is one of the best forms of goverment as it is far more limiting to the goverment than say a dictatorship......although true communism Marist lenin if practiced in the fashion it was designed to ...seems fairer....That has yet to be done however...because like we both said power corrupts...

Black dog: To Curb or add additional rights and freedoms is done by the goverment....My piont is they are controlled by the state...issued or taken away...does actual ownership actually make a difference...more so when it is issued by an organization that has no means of enforcing those rights and freedoms but instead relies on the honour system that every nation "should" follow... Would it also be a fact that those rights and freedoms are also protected by the goverments....And on the other hand what good is a law or decree if it can not be applied to everyone....without enforcement it really leaves the matter to our goverments to ensure we recieve atleast the basic rights does it not...What good is having something that you can not exericise without the permission of the goverment. The beginnings of alot of states or nations have begun with conflict....whether to to separate from it's current goverment or Adminstrative control...or to throw someone off a piece of land they wish to inhabit....to do that the people form some form of goverment or controling agency first trying the political options but alot of the time it ends in armed conflict...it is these people that have stepped up to fight for what they want a new life, goverment, or thier rights and freedoms back that are responsiable for giving those rights and freedoms to future generations... Rights and freedoms are there to improve our way of life,to give us a better quality of life, to give us direction when creating new laws,or freedoms...they influence alot of our values and morals, and help define "us" those people that make up our nation....They are there to make the people happy, content ...happy people are more productive .. the right set of rights and freedoms also attracts new people into the country... Our form of goverment is suppose to act on what is best for the nation, or the collective...we enjoy alot more rights and freedoms than your examples, simply because it must keep our citizens happy or that goverment will perish....we have the option of electing those individuals into power, and if we are not happy then we change the goverment...we may not have much power as individuals but as a collective group we can and most often do persaude the goverment and it's chioces.... The Nazi's or Russia were acting on what was best for the few people in power...not the nation or collective...the people did not have a say or an opinion on anything...they controled the masses through fear and extreme control... we are on two separate paths..one is controled by the people another is controled by an individual. I would disagree to a piont, Good soldiers do not fight for the goverment they fight for a nation....The people....Hard to believe i know...they honestly believe in what they are doing and whom they are doing it for...it would be hard to convince a good soldier that the people are now the enemy, part of our training is not to be lead blindly....but to know what is right or wrong...and take the right course of action...(not to say there would not be other citizens to take thier place or that all soldiers honestly believe in what they are doing.. ) What is the main reason to providing intervention in the first place ?, I guess it would be upto the recieving nation to decide if they could live with the trade off's in order to have aid reach thier people...meeting the objective of getting aid to thier people which i think is the main objective....