Army Guy

You must admit that alot of "citizens" of Canada carry citizenship for convenice only, prime example was the recent up heaval in lebanon, where over 5000 Candain citizens needed to be evac, on our dime....yet in media interviews alot had admitted not to have been to Canada in over 10 years or more....that evac was payed for on our dime...tax payers of Canada, something these people had not done for quit some time....payed taxes....not that paying taxes makes you a citizen, but those that are contributing to this country, and are citizens and paying taxes, should have a say in how it is run.... The same reason the Khadr family returned to Canada, Afghan medical system sucks frankly, and while Omars brother was indeed born in toronto he had spent less than 2 years in country....this is the same brother wounded, and put into a wheel chair, during a fire fight that killed his father, ....Nobody will determine or can prove that this young boy did or did not take part in this fire fight....but he was granted full access to our countries medical system, once again on our dime...What other reasons could the Khadr family have by returning to Canada....it's not because they love Canada, infact they have already stated in the media they loath our values and way of life... So one could assume that it is a citenship of convinence....done for the sake of thier son...wounded in the war on terror.... There should be some set of rules which govern our citenship, more than exist today, written by Canadian for Canadians, to protect what for some of us hold near and dear....I don't the problem with the fact that if a state wants or has the ability to grant citienship it should also have rules governing that citenship, plus have the right to revoke it as they see fit...be that in our courts or in parliment....citenship is not a right...but a privilage... there needs to be a line in the sand now, Omar is not the only Canadian fighting on the wrong side in the war on terror and there will be more cases....

Tango, you sound pissed .....it is not my intention to insult you, if you took it that way i apoligize, it is my intention to make the facts clear, as they are still very clouded to some....and with an issue as important as this it needs to be very clear.... Below is taken from the witness report from the soldier known as OC-1....I think once you read this i think it will become clear that you are confusing some of the facts....as to whom was in the rubble, and where Omar was found.... OC-1 witness report - took a low position at the southeast corner of the alley. This was the first time - stopped moving since the initiating (sic) the approach to the compound. He saw a man lying underneath some rubble and debris (he presumed resulting from the air strikes) that he believed was clearly dead. He heard moaning coming from the back of the compound. The dust rose up from the ground and began to clear, he then saw a man facing him lying on his right side. - identified this man as the man photographed in Attachment 7). The man had an AK 47 on the ground beside him and the man was moving. - fired one round striking the man in the head and the movement ceased. Dust was again stirred by this rifle shot. When the dust rose, he saw a second man sitting up facing away from him leaning against brush. This man later identified as KHADR, was moving. (- identified this man as the man photographed in Attachment 8.) ] - fired two rounds both of which struck KHADR in the back. - estimated that from the initiation of the approach to the compound to shooting KHADR took no more than 90 seconds, with all of the events inside the compound happening in less than a minute. - moved into the alley and noted that the man under the rubble was in fact dead and there was a second man dead under the rubble next to him (see Attachment 9 for details of the alley. Attachments 10 and 11 are photos identified as the two bodies under the rubble). A damaged AK 47 (appeared to be damaged by air strikes) was on the ground next to them - said that the nature of the injuries, which included burned, the dust and debris on top of the bodies, and the general state of these two bodies caused him to believe they were dead prior to his entry into the compound. -moved to the back of the compound and checked the first man he shot. The man was decased and in addition to the wound to his head, he had two gunshot wound two his chest. - believed that these chest wounds were inflicted by the 12 rounds he fired down the alley when he crossed the alley's entranceway. - noted this man was armed with a pistol in a holster in addition to the AK 47 by his side. - observed a small weapon (a pistol or grenade, - could not recall which) on the ground near KHADR. - then tapped KHADR's eye to see if he was alive. KHADR reacted and was placed on his back. - then turned him over to be secured by other personnel who had now entered the alley. - noted an additional AK 47 in the alley and several grenades. (The location of the grenades are marked "G", the pistol is marked "P" and AK 47s are marked "AK" by - on Attachment 9). This is not true, below was taken from wiki, but is also mentioned in several other statements....Omar was asking soldiers to Kill him, in english which surprised soldiers ....it was spec ops guys that prevented other soldiers from carring out Omar wishes....It was not until later did they find out that he was Canadian, his age, or is relation in the Al Quadia family.... wiki Lets put some things into context shall we, Most Afghanis know during this period of time that NATO is involved in combat operations ...Combat operations again'st specfic targets or groups....a line in the sand was clearly drawn... He would not need to defend himself if he was not involved with the Taliban or other terrorist organizations.... When the Afghanis soldiers walked towards the house , to announce thier intentions of searching it...they were gunned down....by omars buddies ....they knew that they did not want NATO to find anything they had hidden, or what the house was being used for....to build bombs...they also did not want to surrender.... The just defending yourself excuse does not wash..... HE was'nt under any rubble.... And one interrogator out of the dozens that interviewed him state this the rest say he is guilty of something.... Some of the charges he was charged with on his 2 and trail..... He was charged with Murder in Violation of the Law of War, Attempted Murder in Violation of the Law of War, Conspiracy, Providing Material Support for Terrorism and Spying That being said if brought back into Canada to face trail what would we charge him with...it has already been decided that most of the evidence could not be used as it was obtained thru torture....so what does that leave us with.... Does that mean we will never know....because our justice system is not set up to handle these type of cases.... wiki

There are 2 soldiers statements, one from a soldier who was advancing with the US medic that was killed himself was wounded in the eye read his statement he claims Omar was not buried in any ruble, but sitting up with his back turned towards them....he was later evaced, and did not see the rest of the battle outcome... the second statement comes from the soldier on the flank that put 2 rounds into omar back, as he was in a sitting postion with his back turned towards the shooter....he is the only one to have seen Omar imediately after the fire fight was over, as he checked Omar to see if he was alive or not........he also confirmed that there was a body not far from Omars shot in the skull.... So my question is this how could young mr Khadr been shot twice in the back if he was buried in ruble as you claim. as Omar was the only one left alive on the battle field, who else could have thrown the grenade....the million dollar question? All this proves is that it is made in the US and like i said everyone has access to such wpns, including Taliban and other terrorists.... So you are concluding that the rest of those people that spoke to Omar are not very good at there jobs....that is what you are impling that we should forget about the other statements as this is the only one that is to be believed.... My intention is not to vilify anyone or make defamatory remarks towards you just someone need sto set the facts right...i have provided you in the past with all the links to these very same remarks you've made.....and yet you presist on carring on the wrong path...

I just want to clarify something here, to be declared a terrorist means that individual has carried out some form of terrorist activity, once you've done that then yes you are a terrorist for life, and are accountable for that, regardless of age....just as a criminal is responable for his crimes here in Canada...only there is no time limitations... And yes there has been cases of terrorists being taken down with deadly force without warning....IE while eating breakfast, etc etc ....good examples of this are high pri targets taken out via sniper actions , or UAV missle attacks noramlly reserved for high pri targets.. but it has happened, but normally reserved to high pri targets such as high profile leaders, or high profile members of some terrorist group... That being said a normal action is for NATO to try and make an arrest, similar to a Swat operation you've seen on TV only we have bigger guns and more of us....and we don't sit around and try to talk you out peacefully....we arrive, we enter , we take them down hopeful alive and leave....

Tango; Your misleading not only the posters on this board but the truth as well. repeation does not mean BS becomes truth defense team has one statement from one soldier that believes Omar did not throw that grenade....the have plenty that have stated they seen nothing, and more than one statement that states Omar must have thrown the grenade....nobody else was alive.... ....it proves shit.....You can have 10 people watch a train wreck and each statement will be different. How does Forensics prove it is US issue ? was a serial number recovered off the piece that kill the US medic....no what forensics have proven it this grenade was manufactured in the US, and is in use by dozens of militaries around the globe....and also available on the black market... As for the interrogator, one of how many that questioned mr Omar, over his course of detention.....one out of dozens, including our own CSIS...whats the odds that this one guy, is the only interrogator capable of doing his job....capable of getting at the truth while the other dozens have not a clue on proper interrogation techs...or are totally useless at thier jobs....

Your right in a perfect world we should be defending everyones rights, but life is not always like that, and our history is full of examples of Canada doing just that defending the rights of Canadians we chose to .... Argus provides a few names of Canadians that perhaps are more deserving of our time and resources but are pushed to the side lines forgotten....Mr Khadr is still in the news....hence why all the hoopla....hence why everyones britches are in a bunch...or people are scrambling to get in the lime light, get thier piece of the pie....

Just so we can clear this up once and for all , why don't you provide a quote or citation that states that SOME meaning more than one us Soldier whom was present at the fire fight that seen Omar capture.....believes he was inocent of the murder charges now filed again'st him.... And while here in Canada the Age 15 is considered a child, not so in Afghan he was considered an adult....free to do or go as he wished....And while you continue to paint this young man as a hopeless and misguided child....your mistaken...He has made a chioce to take up arms again'st NATO troops, lets not forget that our own nations troops are part of that coalition...and where on the ground fighting with US forces during this period of time.....

Argus well said....

I like a quote on this because there are provisions within Canadian and inter national law that "DO" allow a nation to strip one of it's citizens of it's citizanship.... I call Bullshit on this one as well, one US soldier wrote a statement, one out of the almost 20 that where there....that does not make a decisive turning piont in this case.... As for the grenade US type ordance is common in this area of the world, and for the right money i'm sure one could but almost anything....It does not prove friendly fire.... How many times are we going to cover this same ground.....Terrorism is not covered under the child soldiers covenant...not now not yesterday and not anytime in the near future....Check under the UN , inter national , and Canadain laws they have not been amended to include children under 17 years of age....Mr Khadr is shit out of luck hence why he has not been declared a "Child Soldier" by the defense team....or do the posters here know something his defence team does not..... Mr Harper is in charge of running the country, last time i checked anyways....not the courts.....So until that changes it's the courts and Canadian people that will have to suck it up.... Once again one statement does not mean he did not do it, besides how do we explain other charges that could be laid....acts of terrorism, perhaps treason, plus others.... No it clearly shows that our justice system is not set up to put these scumbags on trail....what you forget to mention is that out of those 525 released some 75 have been gone back and are involved in terrorist activities....those are the ones that we know of ...Mr Khadr is the clearest case your going to get...in a war zone....until someone invents a new way to put these guys on trail or gather evidence in a war zone....these guys are going to be let free to roam our streets....i know it gives me a warm and fuzzy.... ny paper.

I have been listening, and i get your piont, with all i've seen and done in Afghan i can not understand how you camer up with your opinion or thought process...you or most Canadians....don't get me wrong i don't hold that again'st you, your entitled to it....all i ask is you keep an open mind.... .Tango there is no pipe line in Afghan right now, there has been no NATO military objectives to clear the route of said pipeline thru Afghan....this pipeline theory is old and now resurfacing for what ever reason....According to sources in the media this pipe line is going thru Kanadar ...funney, that NATO would put a small contingent of CDN's in charge of that key portion of the project....when 1000's of American troops could have sealed up this part of the country long ago and had construction of this pipe line well under way.....In fact if we wnet along with this story it would mean a path would have to be cleared thru Pakistan....another impossiable task....NATO forces are still not large enough to secure Afghan, and Pakistan forces can't secure the far reaches of it's own nation..... All of our taskings, operations todate have been to clear out taliban strong holds spread across our AO, most are not even in the Kanadar area, where your pipeline is suppose to be....the Canadian task force has been either hunting down taliban or rebuilding serveral key projects including the a major DAM in the area....all is available on line....no pipeleine, just helping the Afghan government and its people....

While true Pakistan is a major source of problems in the Afghanistan nation, but things are starting to turn around on that front, the last serveral months have seen Pakistan take the offensive, and start to push back the Pakistan taliban ....of course a new US president, new funding, and a few threats have brought them on line but things are not looking so good for the Taliban in Pakistan right now.... To route out the main problem we had to start in Afghan, once there the pakistan problem came to light....one has to remember that the entire Afghan mission has always been undermanned meaning NATO could not hold territory it won in battles but rather chased the Taliban around hoping to catch them in the open....can't win like that....NATO or should i say it's major players are now pumping in more man power and equipment and is now able to hold on to what it is captured and start the rebuilding process.... One has to remember that to show support for our troops one has to have faith in our troops.....and all along we've been saying we are making a difference and we can win this thing....but not with out support from home...it is on this front that the Taliban are winning .....

And while you say it is your job, the job of every Canadian to ensure our soldiers lifes are not pissed away....from a soldiers piont of view "when is that going to happen" it's now been well over 7 years now since we've been deployed to Afghanistan with the majority of Canadians "not Supporting this mission for a large number of those.....in our eyes you've failed in this one simple task "protecting our nations soldiers" No tango, there is no misinterpretation, you and others on this board have clearly stated that it is the Citizens of Canada's responsabilty to ensure that our nations soldiers are deployed on the right missions for Canada.... Not that polls are a good indicator but they show that a clear majority of Canadians do not support this mission nor have they for well over 5 to 6 years....According to these polls it clearly shows Canadians do not want this mission....my question is when do they start taking they're responabilty seriously....if asking or questioning our government is the extent of that responsabilty then it's a pretty hollow one....to think what actually is at stake here my life and those of my comrads....in that regards i think they the citizens of Canada have failed....in actual fact there is a very weak protection system in place for our soldiers....dont you think. So weak in fact that one can hardly make that statement that "we the citizens of Canada have a responsibilty to ensure the safety of our soldiers"...... There are hundred's of ways to act or get a message to government we read about them all the time in the media....write your MP, start a pation, hold a rally, close a bridge or road....the list is endless.... I don't mean to be blunt Tango....but if the Soldiers did infact agree with the Majority of Canadians that Afghan was a lost cause then we would be still waiting over 6 years for the citizens to get us out....well over 120 lives later... When i said you , i meant to include the majority of Canadians in there as well . How many times have soldiers vioces been printed in the media, and how many have had anything negative to say about the mission...while 99 % have said it is a honourable mission, it is worth our sacrafice, our efforts and our tax dollars....this from the soldiers that have spent 6 to 8 months in Afghan seen, smelled, and tasted Afghan up close and personal, most have lost close personal friends, brothers, sisters, and yet they remain focused on the WHY we do what we do, and yet the majority of Canadians wash these opinions away with a coke and burger.....Dismissed , because it is thought they are brain washed to spout the party line, thats what soldiers are suppose to say....not true...they have lived in Afghan for 6 to 8 months and have seen first hand what is going on in Afghan.... And yet some MP's come over spend 2 to 3 days on the Base talk to a few poeple and become subject matter experts on the topic , fly back to Canada spew thier thoughts to the media and poof, it's gosple....hallalu ya let the truth set me free.....mean while soldiers in Afghan are wondering do Canadians really believe in that shit....yes they do....if they only knew the truth.... Canadian soldiers are fighting and dying in a cause they believe in, to risks one life for a cause has to say something..... You've not been listening....

I just want to dispell some myths here ....It is of the upmost importance that a soldier questions every order he recieves to ensure it is legal and morally right....Soldiers are not a bunch of mindless robots that our government uses to control the population, or do it's bidding..... And while you say it is your job, the job of every Canadian to ensure our soldiers lifes are not pissed away....from a soldiers piont of view "when is that going to happen" it's now been well over 7 years now since we've been deployed to Afghanistan with the majority of Canadians "not Supporting this mission for a large number of those.....in our eyes you've failed in this one simple task "protecting our nations soldiers" If the majority of Canadians feel this way then i think it would be a fair question of when are they going to act.....i also think it would be fair to ask "if your not going to act then for our sake get on board with the mission which will allow for more funding and a quicker end to this.... You did say that the citizens are the ones putting thier soldiers lifes in harms way, and you must be sure that the results are worthy of the soldiers efforts.....and while i agree this should be happening, i find it alittle ironic that you totally shut out the vioces and opinions of those very same soldiers the citizens are so worried about , you know those very people thats lifes are on the line every day, those lives that live that very same problem you've been trying to figure out for all these years.....which is why i think in most soldiers minds this is not a Canadian mission....But rather a Canadian military mission....and there is a major wall there....

I think for me and for other soldiers it is a touchy subject, and comes up at most social functions i attend and i tend to beat around the bushes to aviod upsetting anyone, normally the wifes friends.... Everyone is entitled to thier opinions and thoughts on all polictical topics that surround our nation, and i respect them for viewing them, even defending them, does not mean one is right or wrong...just something they believe in at the time.... For me both are knit very closely, and one has to pull them apart separately and examine them closely, All soldiers really enjoy the support we recieve from across the nation, and it has done wonders for the Dept of National Defense and has done alot for improving soldiers benifits....and i hope it continues...as it saves lives on and off the battle fields....be it from new equipment, to improved mental health services etc .... The mission is as good as any other we have taken on in the past....standing up for the Afghan people when they have been beaten into submission is a great cause in my opinion....as good as Cyprus, Golan, Bosina.... Most soldiers i talk to feel somewhat abandoned by Canadains when it comes to the mission....keep in mind DND wanted no part in Afghan at the very beginning, we where not ready, nor manned for a protracted mission....still not but thats another story.....At the time of the mission a majority of Canadians stood behind the liberal government and thier decision to send us, SO we packed our kit and left.... Once we where over there Canadians changed thier minds....mission support fell dramatically, and yet we where still over there .....failing suport for the mission made the news daily for years ....DND was wasting away trying to keep our countries commitment to NATO....Soldiers decided to make it thier mission....and for the most part there is still a majority of soldiers that feel we are making a difference in others lives....after all these years of multiple tours soldiers are still going back over and over....still believing we are making a difference still improving conditions in Afghan, and preventing the Taliban and the other thugs from taking control of the country.... Most soldiers believe that "IF" we had a majority support for the mission it could and would make our jobs alot easier over here....funding would be available for both equipment and in country projects....i should say more funding .... I think that if Canadians actually seen what goes on here on a daily basis support may change....if they seen what our soldiers see every day....both sides of the coin our lives, and our equipment....and the Afghan lives and thier standard of living.....it's like watching one of those sponsor a child programs....you can't help but feel for the Afghans....most of them are good people...and deserve our help....as for the bad guys....there as bad as they come....And i'm damn glad the Canadian government decided to take a stand, and ordered it's military to take them scumbags down....if ever it defined why soldiers became soldiers it is these guys...the classic good verses evil....

Of all the battles you had to chose from on the eastern front you choose Stalingrad, Why ? ....Then you go on to talk about old and powerful men sitting in ivory towers having some fun and snuffing out the flowers of youth for thier own enjoyment.... Stalingrad was not even on the orginal battle plan for the german's. It was to be bypassed, instead Hilter thought it would be fun to take the city nanmed after Stalin.....And Stalin let pride get in his way and defended it as he did not want this city with his name sake falling into the hands of the Germans....Stalingrad was a meat grinder, millions died so 2 old and powerful men could play thier games....nothing more.... Russia has many places of rememberances for the battle of stailingrad, and it's not my intention to lessen any of what your father faught for, or for what he believed in at the time....But stalingrad is a perfect example of 2 old men wasting a very valuable resource, thier nations youth..... Why Canadian soldiers fight in Afghan....i don't think you can narrow it down to our nation,our flag, the Queen in fact i think every soldier has a different reason why they volunteer ? and when i think back on the 3 tours i've done each one has a different reason... My first tour in Afghan, There were many different reasons, I'd already completed multiple tours in Bosina, Rwanda, most of which where UN missions, the kind where we would watch and report, and while Canada earned a reputation as the worlds "peacekeepers", these mission could have been done by the boy scouts of Canada, very rarely did we get to take direct action and save lives....most of the time it was watch and report, which tears at a soldier, who has the training and wpns to make a difference but is force to watch as inocent people are killed, etc etc then report back to higher HQ's and nothing happened....It was not until Bosina is taken over by NATO that things began to change for the better....soldiers where allowed to take dirrect action and where making a difference on the ground....and you could see things changing for the better, it validated the WHY, all your blood sweat and tears where for.... Afghan comes along a full combat mission, finally i will get a chance to validate all my training, test my skills, get to serve in combat with my buddies and peers....for a Infantry soldier i will get to ply my trade...put it to use for something good....riding the world of a few terrorists, and other extremists bent on shoving thier ways by use of force on others.... My second tour , i had already interacted with the Afghan people gotten to know thier story, thier culture, gotten to know really well the bad guys and thier story, thier culture....got to see first hand all to often thier handy work....my second tour i volunteered to actually help the people of Afghan, it was during this time that the Afghan mission was not very popular with the people of Canada....me and most of those that i served with did'nt volunteer for them, the people of Canada, in fact could not give a rats ass what they thought of the mission.... but instead volunteered for the people of Afghan and making a difference....this mission had become the forces, not Canada's..... Canada has so much, and was rich in so many ways....and i was serving in the dept that could make a direct difference in those peoples lives. My third tour, was more to do with my comrads, peers, and section than anything else and if my being there could save one of thier lifes then so be it, i was going....but not after alot of grief from my wife... Will thier be a forth tour, not if my wife has anything to say about it....but deep down she knows that if they ask , i'll be there....but i think the RSM will be getting a colorful call from the wife

Foot patrols are not that uncommon, Afghan has every feature you'll find on the map, flat, hills, to moutains....they all get patroled for extended periods... A soldiers basic combat gear set up wieghs in at 45 to 50 pounds, thats without a rucksack, "just your basic kit" extended foot patrols can see your ruck sack wiegh in at well over 100 lbs...and for an added bonus the avg temp is well over 45, it's not hot nor f***ing hot, but really F****ing hot....It is not all that uncommon for a soldier to loss on avg of 40 lbs during his tour.... And while the winter months are cooler, the temp difference during the day and night is a killer....it's hot during the day and freezing during the night. Most patrols or movement are down in a LAV III or helo's now, where inside veh temps are even hotter, on avg 10 to 15 degrees hotter....a place where just thinking can drench you in sweat...remember also that 3 rations are for a 24 hour period, todays equipment allows us to operate 24 hours a day, and when on extended patrols we normally do...little rest for the wicked...A LAV III is just as happy traveling at high ways speeds completely blacked out.... http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpu...;catalog=photos Visit My Website comabt camera

We were talking about symbolisms and why the US was attacked, the whole main piont of contention for the arabs and rest of the muslim world within the mid east seems to date back to those same treaties, and the creation of a jewish homeland....And the main players at the time were Britian and France, although the US was a powerful nation it was not a Super power at the time....

I'd have to say everyone has a say in todays rations, right down to the soldier, they are far better than the old rations Dancer describes, but are packed with calories over 4000 per meal, if you consume the entire contents....they are designed for a soldier on the move....They also have a vegitarian meal, A muslim / jewish meal...and regular North American meal... nutritional content is good, the medical side of the house ensured it's all up to par, they've sucked some of the flavour out but generally it is a good meal, keep in mind there are limited amount of choices for each type Break, lunch, supper....so a long deployment can get pretty repetitive....but thats what Mom's packages from home are for...

I thought i was refering to to those treaties and nations involved in the creation of the problem , which dates well before WWII, when the US did have a back ground role.

And while it does not answer the questions asked i think it does clear up a few pionts made in regards to the Mufti's actions and involvement, not only with the Eichmann affilation but also the role he played in Palestine and the early history... This is our document No. 281. Mr. Steiner first tells us that Wisliceny described his talks with Eichmann, why Palestine cannot be considered as the destination for emigration: "When I asked him why, he laughed and asked whether I had never heard of the Grand Mufti Husseini. He explained that the Mufti has very close contact and cooperation with Eichmann, and therefore Germany cannot agree to Palestine being the final destination, as this would be a blow to Germany's prestige in the Mufti's eyes." Then he goes on: "At this further conversation Wisliceny gave me more details about the cooperation between Eichmann and the Mufti. The Mufti is a sworn enemy of the Jews and has always fought for the idea of annihilating the Jews. He sticks to this idea always, also in his talks with Eichmann" - and here we have one of the points about which Wisliceny has reservations - "who, as you know, is a German who was born in Palestine. The Mufti is one of the originators of the systematic destruction of European Jewry by the Germans, and he has become a permanent colleague, partner and adviser to Eichmann and Himmler in the implementation of this programme." Here Wisliceny adds: "I have read these descriptions and find them correct, except for this, that Eichmann was born in Palestine, and that the Mufti was a permanent partner of Himmler's; this is not what I said." trail transcrips more trail transcrips.

I think it say's alot about this current generation, and about western culture in general...we've become a computer generation and loath anything physical... That being said, it's not a problem that can not be over come, even the Canadian forces are having this same problem, and have developed programs to assist recruits in thier physical fitiness.

It sounds like you've already determined your opinion through all the information available in the wide public. Not many have study both sides of the coin, or let emotions take over common sense,or facts as the majority of people do... As far as symbolism goes why not England or France, although they are not Super powers today, they sure played a major role for most of the middle easts problems, and the creation of so much chaos, and hate towards the west. US playing a back ground role in all these problems. Instead they, the newest generation has changed history,and the finger pionting, and blame towards the new Super power, the US government. While the US is responsable for some of problems in the middle east, it has also been asked by alot of middle east countries to assist in these world or district problems...and the US has paid dearly not only in funding, but also in personal, military, and diplomatic pers.. One of the problems of being a super power i guess, everyone expects thier to act or help, and when they fail, they want revenge..... Unconditional support of Israels actions is plain bullshit, and while the US government has supported Israel on many occasions, it has also put Israel in it's place when they have over stepped it's bounds...that info is also available to the wide public....but is surpressed by extremists...So while the US may be one of Israels allies, like Britain, Canada, they have not supported each other unconditionally... I don't think they have fueled thier desired ,but rather thier hate of the jews, and anyone that has supported the nation of Israel, regardless of how many other Middle east countries the US supports as well, Bin Ladin has argued that anyone supporting Israel is to be punished.....therefore a target of terrorist actions....and while the extremists are willing to give thier lives for the cause, what has thier nations or other muslims done inregards to the palestinian problem....have they supported them with funding, a place to live, arms....what ?

Which is my piont, when a nation suffers enough or to much it surrenders, and the war is finished. However take one of those pionts out such as death and the war will be a protracted one, lasting forever.....or atleast while both nations can produce machines....hence why i said it will change warfare and not for the better....

Thats my piont exactly, thier are no risks to the pilot flying a UAV or UCAV thousands of miles away from the aircraft it self......and while tech may give the UAV and UCAV airframe some advantage it will not replace skill of a manned pilot as they are motivated to fly at the edge of airframe frames specs to save thier own lives.... I'm not sure in of the standards in other western airforces, but in the CF pilots must withstand a min of 5 g's during fighter pilot training, with most experience pilots able to withstand 9 g's for short periods of time....anything much higher may damage the airframe itself....Keep in mind these UAV and UCAV's are not built to the same high safety standards as say F14,15, 16, 22's are.... History has shown us in the past that although speed does give you a edge, P-51 pilots where still able to shoot down much faster and agile germany jet fighters.....beisdes todays UCAV are not faster, just more agile....i don't think anything will surpass the speed or power of a F14 or 15.... Todays airforce relies on many different types of aircraft to carry out any of thier missions, AWACS to control and dirrect the fight, refuelers to give them the range, electronic warfare aircraft to jam radars, other types to pin piont comms and troop concerntrations, etc etc etc and your wingman to cover your ass, on top of all that these piloted aircraft such as the F-35 and f-22 will have a huge payload edge over UCAV's, while keeping a stealth profile ....meaning they can afford multiple engagements....using the same type of wpns carried on the UCAV.... Any tech developed for the UCAV will also be able to be transfered over to a piloted aircraft..... And while i agree with you man was never intended to fly, they sure have kicked the crap out of that myth...and i sure the Airforces around the world are just not ready to get replaced by a machine....to sit behind a desk in some office controling some UCAV.... Machines don't think, they obey orders, how many pilots have done a mission when they've been told not to because it was to dangerous, or could not be done....how many lives did they save....in the future those aircraft will remain on the ground...and those lives will be lost.... War is a risky bussiness, once we start taking out the risk we set our selfs up for long and protracted wars, ending when one country can not produce any more machines....it will change warfare as we know it, and not for the good as i see it....

Your right it is cheaper, training a fighter pilot and keeping them current is very expensive, over the long term....and training a UAV or UCAV pilot is done mostly on a sim, much cheaper way to go...but you get what you pay for....a tech geek flying a UCAV does not have his or her life strapped on to thier ass, they have nothing to risk, fully expecting to be respawned or recieve another chance to fly..... while thier mistakes can cost the very people they are supporting thier lives....be it not recieving they airstrike that will turn the nature of the battle around....If i'm down in the weeds getting shot at, i want my fast air pilot to have as much at risk as i do....it motivates them to come thru...