Why Doesn't the US Respect Canada More?

[jbg]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

[marcinmoka]

Another question would be, what two neighboring nations actually do "respect" each other?

[ft.niagara]

JBG,

I am glad you are not acting as the US ambassador for good will. Who brought the topic up wwith this guy. Where was it, it a bar? Bush will be gone in less than two years, and hopefully forgotten in less than that.

[Catchme]

Well, Bush and company do not respect the USA, nor any other country in the world, so it is not plausible for them to respect Canada now is it?!

BTW, the USA does NOT = Bush et al

[bush_cheney2004]

JBG,

I am glad you are not acting as the US ambassador for good will. Who brought the topic up wwith this guy. Where was it, it a bar? Bush will be gone in less than two years, and hopefully forgotten in less than that.

Gone, but not forgotten. Indeed, the topic predates Bush by many decades going back to the Revolutionary War and fleeing loyalists! Add the remnants of monarchy, Commonwealth, constant whining about separatism, domestic strife with Quebec, underfunded military, and an image that is usually defined in terms of (not) American, and it is easy to see that while some "respect" exists, it is not as strong as it could be or in the form that Canadians appreciate (e.g. much respect for Mapleleaf flagged coffins from Afghanistan vs. same gender marriage).

Truth is, Americans cheer for Canadians at the Winter (or Summer) Olympics when the USA! USA! USA! has been eliminated from medal contention. Canada is America's #1 trading partner to the tune of $1.5 billion per day. NORAD, NAFTA, etc. are also limited forms of respect, at least to the degree that can exist between a David and Goliath.

I think Steve Nash summed things up nicely when he made comments critical of the American adventure in Iraq, but admitted his position was compromised by enjoying the opportunity afforded by the Evil Goliath.

Respect is a two way street.....unrealistic expectations exist on both "sides" of the border.

[leonardcohen]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why'[/u]'if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy''why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

Where did you get the idea that Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach?

[Leafless]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why'[/u]'if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy''why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

Where did you get the idea that Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach?

Is this the joke question of the year?

Only 36% can identify any type of association with Vimy Ridge. In Quebec they faired much worse.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=1474

Juno Beach failed the popularity test also.

"Sadly, today, not a lot of young Canadians remember or even know what Juno Beach is. Perhaps only their grandfathers and grandmothers would know how important Canada’s role was in World War II. It is important for all of us to remember, especially now. By looking at Juno Beach as an example, we can remember how hard we Canadians tried to fight for and restore peace in our world."

http://www.histori.ca/fairs/studentProject...omcat1?id=16009

Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity.

The closest Canada could have came to this one IMV, was participating in the Iraq war which Canada declined.

Both countries experienced loss of its citizens relating to '999' terrorist attack.

Canada participating in Afghanistan is a noble effort, but is not on the same level as the direct '999' attack had on America, affecting both Americans and Canadians pertaining to loss of life.

[BubberMiley]

Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity.

I guess you're part of the percentage group that can't identify the war of 1812, unless you don't consider Canada to be a nation yet at that point.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess you're part of the percentage group that can't identify the war of 1812, unless you don't consider Canada to be a nation yet at that point.

No, but you point to one of the underlying issues. Canada cannot shake the monkey of Crown and Commonwealth weighing down on such matters. Canada had slavery too, but some Canadians are quick to say it was only because of British/French rule.

Can't have it both ways.

[Leafless]

Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity.

I guess you're part of the percentage group that can't identify the war of 1812, unless you don't consider Canada to be a nation yet at that point.

It was to early as Canada only became a country in 1867.

If you really want to go back it was the 'Battle of the Plains of Abraham' that formed the ground work relating to the origins of Canada's constitution.

Both the war of 1812 and 'the Plains of Abraham', were both British efforts.

It was only after the 'federal union' in 1867, that Canada became the Canada we know to-day.

This is why the British are so important relating to Canada's basic origins and why they are an extremely important part of our history.

[Wilber]

Both the war of 1812 and 'the Plains of Abraham', were both British efforts.

Not quite that simple. Local militias from both the American and Canadian colonies played a large part in both wars, not to mention the native population. Regardless, if the War of 1812 had been lost this thread wouldn't exist because all of us would be Americans.

[jbg]

JBG,

I am glad you are not acting as the US ambassador for good will. Who brought the topic up with this guy. Where was it, it a bar? Bush will be gone in less than two years, and hopefully forgotten in less than that.

1. The conversation was at the bar of the Great Wolf Lodge in Niagara Falls;
   
2. In no way did the conversation lack good will, nor did a similar one I had tonight with two Ontarians, one by way of Montreal;
   
3. The discussion was more about relationships among Americans and Canadians than about Bush in particular;
   
4. As far as who brought what up, I am not going to provide a transcript, but suffice to say that I debunked the myth of the ignorant American; and
   
5. Why the attack of a personal nature?
   

[jbg]

Where did you get the idea that Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach?

When you mention those to many Canadians, the engendered reaction is "huh".

[Peter F]

Leafless:

Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity.

The closest Canada could have came to this one IMV, was participating in the Iraq war which Canada declined.

Both countries experienced loss of its citizens relating to '999' terrorist attack.

Canada participating in Afghanistan is a noble effort, but is not on the same level as the direct '999' attack had on America, affecting both Americans and Canadians pertaining to loss of life.

- Canadians, in general, cannot identify glorious battles of the past. Therefore we have an identity crisis.

- Americans don't seem to have this identity problem because they can point out many glorious victorys.

- If we were more like Americans in being able to identify glorious victorys then we wouldn't have the

identiy crisis.

But thats the point, isn't it? We arn't Americans. Why would we look to them for Canadian self-identification?

Vimy Ridge was fought by the Canadian Corps, which in 1917 was made up of primarily immigrants from Britain. A great tactical victory ensued and as the historians point out, this was a great event for the Canadian Identity. It was a big deal because as a result of that glorious victory, the troops, who previously identified themselves as 'British', for the most part, now began to identify themselves as Canadian.

Not a small thing, as the 'old country's' emotional hold was replaced in a large degree by the emotional hold of thier new home Canada as a result of the shared disaster the soldiers experienced.

But, it appears to have lost its 'meaning' for Canadian Identity.

Of course it has. Most Canadian's in the here and now do not have an emotional attachment to another country. The example of Vimy Ridge as a Canadian defining moment no longer holds emotional water. Why would it?

Juno. Failure of most Canadian to identify Juno Beach as a glorious victory is not surprising either. Juno is part and parcel of D-Day, and most Canadians I venture would have some idea of what D-Day is. There is nothing specifically gloriously Canadian about Juno or D-Day. The Americans and British also succeeded gloriously at Omaha, Utah, Gold and Sword. So Juno is just another beach on a glorious day for the Allies.

If the Americans and British had failed and Juno succeeded, then you would have a Great Canadian Defining Moment. But that didn't happen - so no moment. Though not with lack of trying "Canadians made the furthest advance on D-Day" etc.

So, if Canadians had have joined the Americans in the conquest of Iraq, would then Canada have had a Defining Moment as a result? I doubt it. Defining moments come from a hard fight against near insurmountable odds against a coldly ruthless, cunning and superior enemy. Such as the Germans!

No such circumstance existed in Iraq during the conquest. Even if there did it wouldn't wash since any opportunity for a glorious victory would be diminished by the probably overwhelming participation of the USAF and USN.

Those seeking Glorious Victory wouldn't have found it in Iraq.

But the '72 Canada-Russia series! Now there's a good one...

[DogOnPorch]

Juno is fairly interesting in that the Canadians made it further off their beach than any of the others. Thusly, we were also the poor sods who had to face the brunt of the Waffen-SS when they counter-attacked.

------------------------------------------------------------------

It would have been difficult enough for a single nation to plan and execute such an enterprise. For a group of allies with little previous experience in co-operation, it was a major triumph.

---Queen Elizabeth II, June 2004

[Wilber]

Juno. Failure of most Canadian to identify Juno Beach as a glorious victory is not surprising either. Juno is part and parcel of D-Day, and most Canadians I venture would have some idea of what D-Day is. There is nothing specifically gloriously Canadian about Juno or D-Day. The Americans and British also succeeded gloriously at Omaha, Utah, Gold and Sword. So Juno is just another beach on a glorious day for the Allies.

If the Americans and British had failed and Juno succeeded, then you would have a Great Canadian Defining Moment. But that didn't happen - so no moment. Though not with lack of trying "Canadians made the furthest advance on D-Day" etc.

Why is it that the British and Americans have no difficulty identifying D Day and their part in it as glorious victory? Weren't Utah, Omaha, Gold and Sword just other beaches as well. Many of Britain's greatest victories such as Waterloo were accomplished with a very large allied component. I suspect that the Dutch, Belgians and Germans all take pride in their part of that victory.

It seems that many feel it is somehow un Canadian to take pride in the martial sacrifices and accomplishments of our ancestors. Perhaps it is because we don't believe it is in us to replicate them.

[Peter F]

Looking at the poll results from the link provided by Leafless

Ipsos

Canadians did the best on identifying the name of the famous poem written by Captain John McCrae who served as a medical officer in World War One.

Nearly six in ten (57%) Canadians were able to name In Flanders Fields as the poem that is considered to be Canada’s most famous war poem.

Four in ten (38%) said they “don’t know”

while 6% mentioned something other than the correct answer.

Regionally, very few (4%) Québecers could identify In Flanders Fields.

Looking only at Canadians outside Québec, the percentage who correctly answered this question rises to 74%.

Geez, Quebecers couldn't identify and English poem. Shocking. As for 38% of Canadians who didn't know what the poem 'In Flanders Fields' is, is not really surprising either. The only time its read is on Rememberance Day if one attends the ceremony, wich practically everybody doesn't. Or students have to read it in class or memorize it - but its boring poetry and more like a task or homework for most students.

The strange thing here is not that it is a remarkable poem - but that it was written by a Canadian

. The claim to fame is that a Canadian wrote it. So everybody should know it, and if not then somehow our education system has failed. I find that reasoning very petty.

Only a third (36%) of Canadians could identify Vimy Ridge as the battle that consisted of the capture of a key ridge on the Western Front and is considered Canada’s most famous single victory in the First World War. Instead, half (50%) of Canadians simply said they “don’t know”.

Once again, Québecers performed the worst with only 6% correctly answering this question. However, even in the rest of Canada only 46% correctly answered the question.

I think I addressed this point earlier....but for only 6% of Quebecers recognizing what Vimy is, Quebec already has its 'Defining Moments'. Most created prior to the Conquest. Vimy isn't a big deal to most Quebecers for the same reason Juno isn't a big deal to most Canadians in terms of Patriotic Defininition.

There really is Two Solitudes in this country...and most Quebecers like it that way for to be otherwise will of necessity banish thier history and 'Defining Moments'.

When asked the multiple choice question “which of the following three people was the Canadian commander in World War One whose plan led to the victory at Vimy Ridge?” Only a third (34%) correctly chose Arthur Currie. In fact, Canadians were equally likely (34%) to choose American World War Two general Douglas MacArthur. Meanwhile, one in ten (11%) chose 19th Century British naval commander Horatio Nelson while one in five (21%) simply said they “don’t know”. Regional and demographic differences for this questions are similar to those in the other questions.

Québecers (15%) are much less likely than the rest of Canada (40%) to correctly answer the question.

Why would Canadians know about Arthur Currie? Any movies about Arthur Currie? Good Books? References to Arthur Currie in WWII? or Dieppe? Did he write a famous poem? Do actors regularly play him in the movies? Did he recite any famous lines to be milked by the propaganda machine? "I shall return"? "England expects every man to do his duty"? Besides, Vimy was won by General Byng - or at least he soaked up the credit for it, even became Governor General of Canada for it (in part). That may have something to do with the Canadian Corps being part of the British 3rd Army fighting the battle of Arras at the time of Vimy Ridge and the fact that most soldiers were in origin 'British'. Currie wasn't. He was a 'colonial', born in Napperton, Ontario. There was no way in hell, in 1917 or post war, that Currie was going to get any glory or be used as

a Defining Icon of Canada.

The fact that 40% of Canadians actually do know of him, is, I suspect, a result of recent research by actual Canadians looking for a Canadian Hero - and not a british born one. That is because of the fundamental nature of the Vimy Ridge Glorious Victory: British citizens becoming Canadian. Currie didnt fulfill the requirements then, he may fill the requirements now...

As for most Quebecers not recognizing the battle, why would they? There was nothing spectacularly French Canadian about it. Thus its a non-event to them.

[leonardcohen]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why'[/u]'if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy''why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

Where did you get the idea that Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach?

Is this the joke question of the year?

Only 36% can identify any type of association with Vimy Ridge. In Quebec they faired much worse.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=1474

Juno Beach failed the popularity test also.

"Sadly, today, not a lot of young Canadians remember or even know what Juno Beach is. Perhaps only their grandfathers and grandmothers would know how important Canada’s role was in World War II. It is important for all of us to remember, especially now. By looking at Juno Beach as an example, we can remember how hard we Canadians tried to fight for and restore peace in our world."

http://www.histori.ca/fairs/studentProject...omcat1?id=16009

Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity.

The closest Canada could have came to this one IMV, was participating in the Iraq war which Canada declined.

Both countries experienced loss of its citizens relating to '999' terrorist attack.

Canada participating in Afghanistan is a noble effort, but is not on the same level as the direct '999' attack had on America, affecting both Americans and Canadians pertaining to loss of life.

No Joke, I did however make the erroneous assumption that most

Canadians were as aware of these battles and their subsequent

effect on the Canadian psyche as i am.

That effect has lessened so much in the intervening generations,

I wonder whether our educators really give a damn about giving their

students a sense of their past,...my mistake

[Peter F]

Why is it that the British and Americans have no difficulty identifying D Day and their part in it as glorious victory? Weren't Utah, Omaha, Gold and Sword just other beaches as well. Many of Britain's greatest victories such as Waterloo were accomplished with a very large allied component. I suspect that the Dutch, Belgians and Germans all take pride in their part of that victory.

It seems that many feel it is somehow un Canadian to take pride in the martial sacrifices and accomplishments of our ancestors. Perhaps it is because we don't believe it is in us to replicate them.

The British and Americans have no difficulty in identifying DDay as a glorious victory and neither do Canadians. Do a poll of Americans and see how many know what Utah beach is, or the British for Gold and Sword. The results I'm willing to bet will be the same as Canadians recognizing Juno. Omaha would propably gain significantly more correct results with Americans...but not Utah. For the simple reason that it fits the bill of the Great Victory. It was a near-run thing. They were staring defeat in the face. The enemy was holding all the cards. Things were looking grim. They overcame the defenders not with overwhelming firepower but 'courage' and 'determination' and great loss. It even gave rise to a famous line 'The only ones who are going to remain on this beach are the dead and those who are going to die'.

Omaha Beach may very well be another glorious victory for the Americans to feel patriotic heart-thumping about....but no other beach will.

Waterloo. True, British victory accomplished with a very large allied component. But did the British milk the participation of the 30odd thousand Dutch, Belgian, Nassau and Hannovarian troops also engaged? No, of course not. We are talking about the British, after all, and at the British Defining Moment - the Napoleonic Wars. There is no room for others in such circumstances. Here were the British (not Scots, not Irish, not Welsh, not even English) with a rag-tag army facing conquering French armies under one of the greatest Generals in all of history - Napoleon himself. The German allies are far away, the French are about to sweep the rabble off the field after the victory at Quatre Bras. The stakes are high, and all that stands in the Arrogant Frenchmans way to Brussels and European conquest is this tiny army of shop-keepers.

...and its the proverbial Near-run thing. Under overwhelming French firepower the British hold thier ground through 'courage' and 'determination'. But the British overcome the insurmountable odds and defeat Napoleon. The Germans only showed up later and the Dutch-Belgians-Hanovarians-Nassau troops were never really involved in the really serious fighting....etc etc.

Waterloo has all the makings of the Great Moment. The Dutch and Belgians never cottoned on to Waterloo as a great victory for them, even though as a result of the battle thier nations regained independance (Holland) or were created from it (Belgium). They don't have waterloo as a Great Moment because they were they were part and parcel of the Allied(British) army. Waterloo was not unique to them and their people. So it cannot be used as the Defining Moment.

As for Canadians should take pride of their martial accomplishments, well many do. Many don't. Why should they? To feel Pride for Canada? That may be compelling reason for you and Leafless and, yes, even me. But others, believe it or not, could not care less about military prowess. Do they have to? is it required for Canadian Citizenship?

No. Not at all.

[kuzadd]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

America, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. America serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

[leonardcohen]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

America, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. America serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

Oh,Hush Now

[margrace]

Yes some Americans are like a bunch of teenagers that need to grow up. There are a lot of sensible ones who find it easier to keep quiet and there are the many without adaquate food, education or housing who don't have time or energy to even think about it. They probably are not even interested in anything but their next meal.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes some Americans are like a bunch of teenagers that need to grow up. There are a lot of sensible ones who find it easier to keep quiet and there are the many without adaquate food, education or housing who don't have time or energy to even think about it. They probably are not even interested in anything but their next meal.

...just like the many homeless in Vancouver? Americans come from all over the world, including Canada. If some need to "grow up" to meet your Canadian expectations, may it hopefully never happen. America is not here to satisfy Canadian fantasy and ideals...but America serves nicely to help Canada define itself as the UnCola.

[ft.niagara]

JBG,

I am glad you are not acting as the US ambassador for good will. Who brought the topic up with this guy. Where was it, it a bar? Bush will be gone in less than two years, and hopefully forgotten in less than that.

Why the attack of a personal nature?

There is an old saying do not talk politics and religion among friends. You could add a third and that would be don't ask why is our relationship so disfunctional. You are well capable of defending the US in verbal debate, but this was a vacation. Time to unwind, unless winning arguements is a form of relaxation.

[jbg]

There is an old saying do not talk politics and religion among friends. You could add a third and that would be don't ask why is our relationship so disfunctional. You are well capable of defending the US in verbal debate, but this was a vacation. Time to unwind, unless winning arguements is a form of relaxation.

I find political debate quite relaxing, or else I wouldn't be here, at www.rightnation.us, www.globalwarmingskeptics.info, http://www.canadianmalcontent.net, among others. I do not post from work.

If you don't find such debate enjoyable if not addicting, why are you here?