Why Doesn't the US Respect Canada More?

[jbg]

As for Canadians should take pride of their martial accomplishments, well many do. Many don't. Why should they? To feel Pride for Canada? That may be compelling reason for you and Leafless and, yes, even me. But others, believe it or not, could not care less about military prowess. Do they have to? is it required for Canadian Citizenship?

No. Not at all.

The things that I, as an outsider, think Canada should take pride in are great people, a great civil tradition that promotes order with freedom, responsibilities with rights, yes, a glorious military tradition, great natural beauty and a tremendous diversity of people living together among relative peace and tranquility. Unfortunately, these are the identical things that make the US and Australia (with less variety of people) great countries. That, for some people, forces Canada to define itself as the "Un-America".

It should be possible for people to share common positive attributes and not be self-branded as the same people.

[Figleaf]

...As far as who brought what up, I am not going to provide a transcript, but suffice to say that I debunked the myth of the ignorant American; ...

The phrase is actually 'suffice it to say'.

[ScottSA]

...As far as who brought what up, I am not going to provide a transcript, but suffice to say that I debunked the myth of the ignorant American; ...

The phrase is actually 'suffice it to say'.

The meaning is the same either way, and grammatically marginal either way, although 'suffice it to say' is somewhat clumsier, as are most references to "it". The most grammatically proper arrangement of the phrase would probably be: "it is sufficient to say", but that sounds lame. But you should probably report what you erroneously think is a phrasial error...wouldn't want to pass up a chance to tattle.

[kuzadd]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

America, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. America serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

Oh,Hush Now

gladly, The questions weren't so pointless and irrelevant, anyway.

I am certain now posters will argue for 10 pages on these pointless and irrelevant questions, as if they actually matter, they don't.

[Leafless]

...As far as who brought what up, I am not going to provide a transcript, but suffice to say that I debunked the myth of the ignorant American; ...

The phrase is actually 'suffice it to say'.

"Suffice to say" it appears is also correct.

1. "suffice to say"

Also written and said more grammatically correct as "suffice it to say" or "(it) suffices to say", this term basically, literally means "it is sufficient to say"

[guyser]

I would think it pretty hard to respect what you do not know. That said , there is a wealth of respect out of the States for Canada. Just not on a scale that one might want , but thats another question.

I knew nothing about the game of soccer , and I did not respect the game nor the players. Sissy sport I thought. Now..?...respect up the ying yang. What they can do with a ball is incredible .

The same holds true for US/Can relations. If a large majority of Americans dont know much about us, then they cannot respect us. It is not an either or scenario . That they dont repect us more, does not mean that they respect us less.

Same goes for the guy living down the street. I dont know him, never met him, and so I dont respect him.I will however be civil should we meet, and after that I may change my mind and respect him.

[ft.niagara]

I find political debate quite relaxing, or else I wouldn't be here,

If you don't find such debate enjoyable if not addicting, why are you here?

Of course it is enjoyable, but quite anonymous. Also, everyone here by joining indicates an interest in same. This would not be the same in some bar in a foreign country. When I visited Toronto, I made comment on the poor fellow who built Casa Loma, but I did not find some bar and beat up on some poor patron, and then comment here on his ignorance of history. Just an observation, that's all.

[Wilber]

The British and Americans have no difficulty in identifying DDay as a glorious victory and neither do Canadians. Do a poll of Americans and see how many know what Utah beach is, or the British for Gold and Sword. The results I'm willing to bet will be the same as Canadians recognizing Juno. Omaha would propably gain significantly more correct results with Americans...but not Utah. For the simple reason that it fits the bill of the Great Victory. It was a near-run thing. They were staring defeat in the face. The enemy was holding all the cards. Things were looking grim. They overcame the defenders not with overwhelming firepower but 'courage' and 'determination' and great loss. It even gave rise to a famous line 'The only ones who are going to remain on this beach are the dead and those who are going to die'.

Omaha Beach may very well be another glorious victory for the Americans to feel patriotic heart-thumping about....but no other beach will.

Waterloo. True, British victory accomplished with a very large allied component. But did the British milk the participation of the 30odd thousand Dutch, Belgian, Nassau and Hannovarian troops also engaged? No, of course not. We are talking about the British, after all, and at the British Defining Moment - the Napoleonic Wars. There is no room for others in such circumstances. Here were the British (not Scots, not Irish, not Welsh, not even English) with a rag-tag army facing conquering French armies under one of the greatest Generals in all of history - Napoleon himself. The German allies are far away, the French are about to sweep the rabble off the field after the victory at Quatre Bras. The stakes are high, and all that stands in the Arrogant Frenchmans way to Brussels and European conquest is this tiny army of shop-keepers.

...and its the proverbial Near-run thing. Under overwhelming French firepower the British hold thier ground through 'courage' and 'determination'. But the British overcome the insurmountable odds and defeat Napoleon. The Germans only showed up later and the Dutch-Belgians-Hanovarians-Nassau troops were never really involved in the really serious fighting....etc etc.

Waterloo has all the makings of the Great Moment. The Dutch and Belgians never cottoned on to Waterloo as a great victory for them, even though as a result of the battle thier nations regained independance (Holland) or were created from it (Belgium). They don't have waterloo as a Great Moment because they were they were part and parcel of the Allied(British) army. Waterloo was not unique to them and their people. So it cannot be used as the Defining Moment.

As for Canadians should take pride of their martial accomplishments, well many do. Many don't. Why should they? To feel Pride for Canada? That may be compelling reason for you and Leafless and, yes, even me. But others, believe it or not, could not care less about military prowess. Do they have to? is it required for Canadian Citizenship?

No. Not at all.

Little Canada with its population of 12 million or so was the only country to assault a beach of its own

other than Britain and the rest of its empire, population ? and the US, population 150 million. That is something extraordinary. Why shouldn't Canadians be proud of that. What kind of knowledge should be required for Canadian Citizenship if not that?

The Great War may not mean much to many Canadians but the Belgians still play the Last Post every evening at the Menin Gate in Ypres to honour of the thousands of Commonwealth troops who died there during the three WW1 battles. Why is it that the Belgians and Dutch have more regard for the people who fought for them in the two world wars than those soldier's own countrymen?

I don't know what the Belgians and Dutch feel about Waterloo but as here is a rather large monument there I assume it has some importance for them. Waterloo was a close run thing as Wellington said but his army was at least equal to Napoleons in quality if not size. He picked the site and although he had never fought Napoleon personally, he had beaten all of Napoleon's best Marshals every time he had fought them during the Peninsular Campaign, so his victory is not that surprising. The battle also ended what was really the first world war after nearly 20 years of fighting.

[jbg]

Of course it is enjoyable, but quite anonymous. Also, everyone here by joining indicates an interest in same. This would not be the same in some bar in a foreign country. When I visited Toronto, I made comment on the poor fellow who built Casa Loma, but I did not find some bar and beat up on some poor patron, and then comment here on his ignorance of history. Just an observation, that's all.

I'm sorry. When did I say I beat someone up?

[WestViking]

Leafless:

Vimy Ridge was fought by the Canadian Corps, which in 1917 was made up of primarily immigrants from Britain.

Nevertheless, the two battalions that suffered the heavies casualties were both French volunteers from Quebec.

[guyser]

Why is it that the Belgians and Dutch have more regard for the people who fought for them in the two world wars than those soldier's own countrymen?

Education.

It is incredibly uplifting to see the little children know all about the war and the fight the allies did for them.

We should have the same education in that regard..sadly we do not.

[Leafless]

Leafless:

Vimy Ridge was fought by the Canadian Corps, which in 1917 was made up of primarily immigrants from Britain.

Nevertheless, the two battalions that suffered the heavies casualties were both French volunteers from Quebec.

The total number of Canadians killed at Vimy totalled 3,598 with 7,104 wounded.

It does not specify how many of the the 22nd (French Canadian) Infantry Battalion were killed but only identifies 4000 as wounded and killed.

Two hundred thousand French, British, Canadian and German perished at Vimy.

Total casualties at Vimy including wounded totalled 800,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vimy_Ridge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_22e_R%C3%A9giment

[ft.niagara]

When did I say I beat someone up?

Only a figure of speech. Kind of like a pool shark going into a pool hall, and challenging someone to a game of pool. And then he hits you with the ol the US doesn't respect Canada enough arguement, and you counter with a topic changeup, why should they if Canadians don't respect themselves. This probably left the poor barfly clueless as how to defend against a pro, instead of countering with the 'what does that have to do with' arguement. It is the same thing as beating him up.

[Wilber]

It does not specify how many of the the 22nd (French Canadian) Infantry Battalion were killed but only identifies 4000 as wounded and killed.

Was that for the entire regiment or just one battalion? A battalion usually numbers around 1,000 but a regiment can have several battalions. 4000 casualties for one battalion would be a lot, basically having to replace itself three times during the course of the war.

[jbg]

This probably left the poor barfly clueless as how to defend against a pro, instead of countering with the 'what does that have to do with' arguement. It is the same thing as beating him up.

What qualifies a poor old country bankruptcy lawyer as a pro?

[Leafless]

It does not specify how many of the the 22nd (French Canadian) Infantry Battalion were killed but only identifies 4000 as wounded and killed.

Was that for the entire regiment or just one battalion? A battalion usually numbers around 1,000 but a regiment can have several battalions. 4000 casualties for one battalion would be a lot, basically having to replace itself three times during the course of the war.

Wikipedia is not clear as it states: "While other French-speaking units were also created, they were all broken up upon arrival in France to provide reinforcements for the 22nd, which suffered close to 4000 wounded and killed in the course of the war."

It was WestViking who posted (with no confirmation), "Nevertheless, the two battalions that suffered the heavies casualties were both French volunteers from Quebec."

I just was hoping WestViking would clarify his statement concerning 'what two battalions' is he talking about?

[sunsettommy]

I am staying in Niagara Falls, and just finished an intelligent, though slightly liquor-stoked conversation with an Ontarian. He asked why Americans in general and Bush in particular doesn't show Canada and Canadians more respect.

I think these are entirely the wrong questions. I pointed out that I met a Peterborough, ON school teacher who did not know what happened at the Plains of Abraham and didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. I also asked why, if Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach (Normandy), why should Americans show more respect for Canada than it does for itself.

Thoughts?

America, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. America serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

Canada, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. Canada serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

LOL.

[Leafless]

Canada, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. Canada serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

LOL.

Don't be silly, Canada respects the U.S. 86%.

It has no choice.

http://www.buyusa.gov/canada/en/traderelationsusacanada.html

[jbg]

Canada, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. Canada serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant. LOL.

Same, hopefully, with any country. The idea of world government is BS.

[WestViking]

Canada, through it's foreign policy , doesn't respect any country. PERIOD. Canada serves, it's OWN interests. This has nothing to do with 'respect'. which makes these questions irrelevant.

LOL.

Don't be silly, Canada respects the U.S. 86%.

It has no choice.

http://www.buyusa.gov/canada/en/traderelationsusacanada.html

Canada is a sovereign nation and the US has long recognized her independence. This is somewhat blurred due to the many common interests and common memberships in international organizations such as NATO and NAFTA. We often disagree as separate nations, but we fight in a civilized manner.

There have been cases in 'friendly' war exercises where Canadians have won the day despite the overwhelming superiority in the size and resources of the American military. The US has never played a bad sport in these instances.

Trade relations have been different with the US playing protectionist. However, we are in a poor position to argue as we play the protectionist card against one another at the provincial level.

Neither nation is perfect, and like people living together in one house, we get irritated at one another's habits and idiosyncrasies. We do not have the option of filing for a divorce and moving to another continent. We can continue to bitch and complain about one another or learn to focus on the multitude of assets each nation brings to the table. The choice is ours.

[Leafless]

Canada is a sovereign nation and the US has long recognized her independence.

"3. Our business community. By financing election campaigns, it is the business community that indirectly chooses governments and indirectly determines the policies that will be followed. In a country where 75 % of the major corporations; 60% of the manufacturing industry; 60% of the mining industry; 85%0 of the smelting and refining; 90% petroleum; 95% automobile and automobile parts; 90% rubber, 75% chemical; 75% electrical apparatus; 90% computer and 90% of the corporations employing more than 5,000 people are foreign-owned, is it surprising that what is best for Canada's long term future is not necessarily the prime concern of business or of government? And don't expect senior executives of the more than 8,500 American subsidiaries now operating in Canada to speak out in favour of economic independence. When they do, expect them to join the ranks of the unemployed."

http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/detail...hID=2132&FT=yes

Could Canada defend itself from a U.S. attack?

"Canada could never hope to defend itself against the United States with whom it shared a long and indefensible border. Rather than try to create a huge military force, Canada chose to rely on law and diplomacy to settle disputes with its neighbour to the south."

http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts/canadian_st...nding/index.htm

How SOVERIGN did you say Canada was again?

[jbg]

Neither nation is perfect, and like people living together in one house, we get irritated at one another's habits and idiosyncrasies. We do not have the option of filing for a divorce and moving to another continent. We can continue to bitch and complain about one another or learn to focus on the multitude of assets each nation brings to the table. The choice is ours.

Agreed. Both the strength and the problem is both countries bring similar assets to the table:

1. Great people;
   
2. Great natural resources;
   
3. Great natural beauty;
   
4. Excellent civil traditions; and
   
5. Common language and culture (mostly).
   

[Leafless]

Leafless:

Vimy Ridge was fought by the Canadian Corps, which in 1917 was made up of primarily immigrants from Britain.

Nevertheless, the two battalions that suffered the heavies casualties were both French volunteers from Quebec.

Could you please clarify whatever you are trying to say with some form of proof in the form of a link or whatever?

[jbg]

Could you please clarify whatever you are trying to say with some form of proof in the form of a link or whatever?

I've heard that before. But as you know, a proof is a proof.

[Higgly]

JBG, you dumbass. Canadians were dieing in Europe long before Gregory Peck, George C Scott and John Wayne were making movies. Go fu*k yourself. Really. Go fu*k yourself.