Drugs

[margrace]

Hey do any of you smoke, drink alchohol or take asparins, you are using legall drugs.

[M.Dancer]

For me it's not an either or question. I think serious addictions are illnesses and the best place to treat them are prison hospitals.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Legalize and tax. Use the funds to improve society in the manner desired by public consent. This is supposed to be a democracy, put the question to the test, a referendum.

Allow citizens to see the cost of pursuing the current policy, let them see the cost benefit research into the alternative and let them decide a course of action.

[guyser]

Wrong, skiers and snowboarders are 99 times out of 100 taxpayers. We pay for park services, both in taxes and in park fees. So no. Nice try.

You know it was not that long ago that 99 out of 100 skiers who lived in Rossland were being paid under the table and for cash, just so they could live to ski.So no tax return there.

Hmm..how does that fit in your scenario?

Or the Exec who is an addict, the Doctor( some of them addicts)

Again I reiterate, it is a slippery slope arguement.

[Black Dog]

When a druggy OD's, we should treat them and give them the opportunity to enter rehab. If they choose not to, throw them back on the street and hope that they either finish the job next time, or choose rehab the next time.

Giving them their drugs and needles doesn't really accomplish anything but sustaining the problem.

Thankfully, no one is advocating just giving them drugs and needles (though if they were, free needles would help reduce the spread of HIV, Hep C and other diseases, while a supply of free heroin would reduce overdoeses by placing controls on the amount and opotency of the drug. Also, free drugs and paraphenalia would likely impact crime rates, as junkies wopuild no longer have to rob for their fixes.)

Treatment, counselling and referrals are essential to any harm reduction strategy.

Wrong, skiers and snowboarders are 99 times out of 100 taxpayers. We pay for park services, both in taxes and in park fees. So no. Nice try.

So? Do you pay the full cost of medical treatment and other costs associated with keeping your ass alive if you snap your neck on some black diamond run? In the end, I am paying for your bad habit.

As for this business about rock bottom, I don't know if that applies to chronic drug users. I've been to East Hastings: it's difficult to imagine how much lower human beings can sink. "Rock bottom" applies to people who have something to lose. Since most people with drug problems start young or come from less than stable or healthy backgrounds, that doesn't apply.

[Charles Anthony]

Hey do any of you smoke, drink alchohol or take asparins, you are using legall drugs.

-- not when I get them on the black-market.

I do not mean to be flippant just for the sake of being flippant. My point is that I firmly believe that what drugs are considered legal or illegal is primarily a result of cronyism: cigarette, alcohol, pharmaceutical, textile, pulp and paper companies want to protect their turf.

However, this:

Thankfully, no one is advocating just giving them drugs and needles (though if they were, free needles would help reduce the spread of HIV, Hep C and other diseases, while a supply of free heroin would reduce overdoeses by placing controls on the amount and opotency of the drug. Also, free drugs and paraphenalia would likely impact crime rates, as junkies wopuild no longer have to rob for their fixes.)

is just a different type of cronyism (civil servant jobs depending on enabling drug use) and I will say it is worse.

[Fortunata]

An old school chum of mine works at a private treatment centre in BC. The cost of treatment ranges between 20k and 30k depending on how long a patient is there. She says they have a high success rate (somewhere in the 70% range, which is supposedly one of the highest in NA).

Now if addiction is a disease, a social scourge and is reaching epidemic proportions (apparently from what she said on the oil fields in northern BC and throughout Alberta) and treatment is 30k, how are we as a society best able to deal with it. Something she said I found very interesting is that alcohol is the main gateway drug. Apparently people get all likkered up at a party, someone brings out the crack pipe and in an alcohol induced fog it is tried and that may be it for some people with the addictive gene or whatever it is in a person that makes an addict an addict. As little as once for some. And after that every thought they have is more crack, more meth, more whatever but it comes down to every cent they make eventually goes towards it. Some reach hopelessness as their bottom, some reach homelessness as their bottom and some don't get to their bottom until death makes it their bottom. And it is usually the families or friends that put enough pressure on the addict that they agree to go to treatment - IF, (BIG IF) someone can pay for it because addicts certainly don't have the money anymore.

It was pretty fascinating stuff that she told me. I, like most people without an addict in their life, realizes little of the problems addicts face and how easy it is to get into.

[BubberMiley]

Who is making the money to keep the status quo?

When you're dealing with the amount of cash involved in the drug trade, you'd have to be very naive to believe that the people who are determined to keep the status quo aren't the same people profiting from it.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....-MARIJUANA1.xml

[geoffrey]

When you're dealing with the amount of cash involved in the drug trade, you'd have to be very naive to believe that the people who are determined to keep the status quo aren't the same people profiting from it.

Ol' Myron Thompson has a grow op? Art Hanger? Stockwell Day?

[Charles Anthony]

Geof,

Have you ever heard of "cronyism" before? Politicians are not oblivious of their supporters and how they ascended to power.

[jbg]

Ol' Myron Thompson has a grow op? Art Hanger? Stockwell Day?

Oh Cannabis, our home grown native plant,

The true favorite bud, from Stoner's rented land,

With grow ops on the rise from West Van to Langley,

Some said to make from cannabis a million bucks tax free,

Cops seize the plants, occasionally,

but cannabis sells internationally,

Oh Cannabis the cash crop of BC

Face off!!!

[Figleaf]

I think the recreational use of drugs should be regarded as a personal choice, not a crime, not an illness.

[BC_chick]

Oh Cannabis, our home grown native plant,

The true favorite bud, from Stoner's rented land,

With grow ops on the rise from West Van to Langley,

Some said to make from cannabis a million bucks tax free,

Cops seize the plants, occasionally,

but cannabis sells internationally,

Oh Cannabis the cash crop of BC

Face off!!!

I have no idea where you would have read that and I've never heard of it.... but it was very funny.

[BC_chick]

Interesting.

So in the end this non-scientific poll came up with pretty much the same results as a nation-wide one conducted by a professional polling agency.

[geoffrey]

Geof,

Have you ever heard of "cronyism" before? Politicians are not oblivious of their supporters and how they ascended to power.

Harper has been in terms of dealing with Alberta since election. That aside, I really don't think the CPC is secretly protecting the myraids of drug dealers that fund and vote for them.

I think the recreational use of drugs should be regarded as a personal choice, not a crime, not an illness.

Where do we draw the line between recreational and a burden on our society?

If someone is on welfare, can I tell them to stop because instead of searching for a job they are abusing drugs? Or alcohol for that matter?

When does the personal choice end and it's impact on me begin?

[BubberMiley]

When does the personal choice end and it's impact on me begin?

Have you been drinking scotch while posting again?

[jbg]

Oh Cannabis, our home grown native plant,

The true favorite bud, from Stoner's rented land,

With grow ops on the rise from West Van to Langley,

Some said to make from cannabis a million bucks tax free,

Cops seize the plants, occasionally,

but cannabis sells internationally,

Oh Cannabis the cash crop of BC

Face off!!!

I have no idea where you would have read that and I've never heard of it.... but it was very funny.

A Bob & Dean MP3. I'll e-mail it to anyone who wants it. PM or e-mail me your address if you if you like.

(I was going to say they play it at Rangers/Canucks games in NYC).

[guyser]

When does the personal choice end and it's impact on me begin?

How does what I do impact on you?

[Charles Anthony]

Have you ever heard of "cronyism" before? Politicians are not oblivious of their supporters and how they ascended to power.

Harper has been in terms of dealing with Alberta since election. That aside, I really don't think the CPC is secretly protecting the myraids of drug dealers that fund and vote for them.

You are misunderstanding or I am not being clear enough.

It is to the advantage of the police to have illegal drugs remain illegal simply for the sake of their jobs. [i am open to the possibility that they have other unscrupulous vested interests too but that is a different story.] Therefore, the police will vote (and lobby and finance and crony) that way.

Where do we draw the line between recreational and a burden on our society?

You do not.

[geoffrey]

You are misunderstanding or I am not being clear enough.

It is to the advantage of the police to have illegal drugs remain illegal simply for the sake of their jobs. [i am open to the possibility that they have other unscrupulous vested interests too but that is a different story.] Therefore, the police will vote (and lobby and finance and crony) that way.

Our country isn't going to start laying off cops because pot is legal. That's completely unfounded.

Where do we draw the line between recreational and a burden on our society?

You do not.

Absolutely I should, and will. When someone's enjoyment of a substance impacts my way of life, I have the right to get involved and stop it. We don't have your perfect anarchist society yet CA, so in current terms if someone's habits impact me negatively financially or otherwise (health care costs, ect.), it stands to be illegal on that basis.

[guyser]

Absolutely I should, and will. When someone's enjoyment of a substance impacts my way of life, I have the right to get involved and stop it. We don't have your perfect anarchist society yet CA, so in current terms if someone's habits impact me negatively financially or otherwise (health care costs, ect.), it stands to be illegal on that basis.

Make skiing illegal then. You tried this argument in another post and it failed , same here.

Because you put in health care costs etc, then your recklessness skiing in the back country is costing me. Please stop. Thank you.

It was asked earlier, what impact does one smoking a doobie have on your way of life?

You never have the right to get involved in someone elses matters , that is a choice , but not a right. Its is called MYOB.

[BubberMiley]

Absolutely I should, and will. When someone's enjoyment of a substance impacts my way of life, I have the right to get involved and stop it. We don't have your perfect anarchist society yet CA, so in current terms if someone's habits impact me negatively financially or otherwise (health care costs, ect.), it stands to be illegal on that basis.

So considering the costs of alcohol abuse greatly outweigh the costs of marijuana use, you must be onboard with making booze illegal? .

Also, the chiefs of police in Canada called for decriminalization of weed years ago, but the police union said that shouldn't happen. No union has ever been in favour of something that threatens the amount of work they'll get.

To say that a law that costs millions and millions in police resources wouldn't have any impact on necessary police staffing levels is ridiculous.

Edited August 27, 2010 by BubberMiley

[guyser]

To say that a law that costs millions and millions in police resources wouldn't have any impact on necessary police staffing levels is ridiculous.

Not so sure that staffing levels are affected, but the Police LOVE the toys they can get fopr the "war on drugs"

Look at the ridiculous rise in the SWAT teams in the US....and the equipment they get. Pretty funny calling out a APC for a dime bag of weed.

[BubberMiley]

Either staffing levels would be affected, or they're presently ignoring real crimes with real victims in favour of easy work like busting teenage stoners. I guess it beats responding to domestic violence calls.

[Slavik44]

Let them do what they wish, if they choose to use illegal drugs, then they can die. If they choose not to, then great. End of story. Why should I have to pay for someone else's bad habits??? No one pays for my ski equipment despite that it could be easily classified as a dangerous addiction.

Sillyness. Giving them help too early just encourages further abuse. Like CA said the only way for them to quit is to hit rock bottom. I say let them fall. They made the choice to use the drugs after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

Actually I wasn't aware that skiing was illegal, although those so-cons are always looking for a way to stick it to B.C...

--------------------------

anyways I would say we should really consider looking into legalising the use of drugs.

All to often we have a historically innacurate picture painted before us, about how herion was a dangerous drug that needed to be controlled, and was ruining the lives of people across north america. When history paints a different picture. When opiates were legal, herion was an almost non-existant drug. Opium was the drug of choice for middle aged housewives who saw drinking as a low class immoral behavoir. There was no pronounced drug crime connection, where users had to steal to support their habbit, for a while it wasn't even truly considered a habbit.

Herion didn't emerge until after the government stepped in to "help" end the drug "problem". Niether was their a herion-crime connection. Instead as governments phased legal use of opium out, first to a tax and regulate scheme, then to a strict prescirption only phase, next to closing all treatment clinics because they did not force addicts off opium, then preventing doctors from providing maitnance dossages to patients...etc...

With each step the criminal underworld took over the situation, and wouldn't you know it, they turned to herion. Being far more potent it became much easier to transport, distribute, and of course make a good prrofit. As opiate use was pushed further into the world of criminals, the selection slowly started to dissapear and converge around herion.

Basic economics, criminal organizations have a monopoly on herion, alternatives drugs and sources have phased themselves or been phased out of the market, these drugs are addictive, addiction treatment centers have been closed, needless to say the demand is as inelastic as you can get. As the price goes up the addicts, need to get the money from some where. The drugs have become more potent, more mind altering, more addictive, more expensive...your average herion user aint going to be holding down a nine to five and driving home to your house with the white picket fence.

I am afraid that irreverseable harm has been done by the criminalization of opiates and for that matter most other drugs, particularly Marijauna. But I do believe we need to start phasing out this failed government intervetion, because it has been a failure. An expensive one at that. And this is something we cannot forget, it has come at a price to all tax payers. I migh talso wager that you pay the price not only in your tax bill, but also your insurance premiums. So yes I do believe the government should move towards treatment. The truth is Jails are not the place to treat drugs addicts, or get a drug addict to stop being a drug addict, no more than a pig sty is where you go to teach pigs to stop being pigs. I mean I haven't even touched on the unneccessary strain on police resources as a result of criminilizing drugs. Anyways the step to treatment as an illness should only be temporary, its timb to climb back down this ridiculously unstable and shaky ladder of drug prohibition.