Drugs

[BC_chick]

Recently, I posted an article about Dion's support of safe-injection sites in Vancouver. The entire thread became a moral and existential debate about drugs (instead of Dion), and since we were on the federal issues board, I thought I would continue the conversation in its appropriate forum.

So. It turns out that my adversaries from that board are, as usual, a minority in Canada:

Canadians See Drug Offences as Illness, Not Crime

February 1, 2007

(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Many adults in Canada believe prevention and treatment should be the main focus when dealing with drug users, according to a poll by Innovative Research Group released by CanWest News Service. 65 per cent of respondents think the consumption of illegal drugs is an illness, while 35 per cent consider it a crime.

[...]

Do you think the best approach to drug abuse is...

Treat the use of illegal drugs as an illness and

focus on prevention and treatment for addicts

65%

Treat the use of illegal drugs as a crime and get

tough on enforcement of drug laws among addicts

35%

And it's a CanWest poll!

[Canadian Blue]

I think we should legalize most drugs, and then instead tax it, using that money for treatment and prevention. So far I haven't seen any evidence that the current system has been able to reduce the amount of drug use in society, and I think a new strategy is needed to deal with the problem.

[Charles Anthony]

I think we should legalize most drugs,

I say legalize ALL of them.

and then instead tax it,

I disagree.

using that money for treatment and prevention.

No.

I am told that in the real world, reaching rock-bottom is the only way that a drug addict will decide for himself to change his ways. Therefore, keeping that money in the hands of the drug addict will lead him to reach rock-bottom faster.

So far I haven't seen any evidence that the current system has been able to reduce the amount of drug use in society, and I think a new strategy is needed to deal with the problem.

I have not bothered to look at evidence but I have heard compelling arguments.

Here are some fruitful debates from the past over this issue:

Drugs: Decriminalization vs. Legalization; Or, the continuance of the status quo

A note on the legalizing drugs issue

Safe injection sites... Support or oppose

Vancouver Safe Injection Site, UN Comments - Bad Idea

[jbg]

I support the New York system of decriminalizing but not legalizing them, so it would be the equivalent of a traffic ticket, at least for possession (as opposed to sale or possession with intent to distribute). I do not want cocaine coming out of vending machines where minors can get it.

As far as Dion's role in this, I do not believe Canada's future is as a sex and drugs (and not even much rock n' roll) tourist spot.

[Fortunata]

I think marijuana should be legalized, regulated and taxed. That will take some of the organized crime element out of it, it will also take out the spiked-with-hard-drug-to-further-addict danger out of it.

As for harder addictive drugs there is no one answer. All avenues have pitfalls. If we legalize hard drugs the government will have to regulate the quality and usage. This might take some of the wind out of organized crimes sails but it still poses a problem of how the addict can afford his fix. This leads to continued crime such as robbery, prostitution etc. to support that addiction. The social problems will still be in place, albeit maybe not to such a degree if the price is not so high. If an addict receives his "fix" free then they won't have to resort to crime but it puts government in the position of trafficker, although conversely it will then opportune government to influence addicts to clean up. But we know what happens when government gets involved.

[Charles Anthony]

If we legalize hard drugs the government will have to regulate the quality and usage.

Like it does with patented benzodiazepines?

[Riverwind]

I think marijuana should be legalized, regulated and taxed. That will take some of the organized crime element out of it, it will also take out the spiked-with-hard-drug-to-further-addict danger out of it.

I agree with the principal but not the pratice. As long as the US has restrictive drug laws we will have a drug related organized crime problem. Leglizing drugs only in Canada would simply provide a legimate cover for organized crime that makes their real money smuggling to the US.

[BubberMiley]

I don't really see the purpose of legalization. There's already excellent product available to anyone who wants it. Why gum up the process with regulations and restrictions and taxes? It would eliminate a guaranteed source of employment for law enforcers and lawyers, and the restrictions would likely leave slacker teenagers with nothing to do on a Saturday night.

[guyser]

I don't really see the purpose of legalization.

If more people saw the "reasons for " criminalizing drugs back in the earlier part of the 20th century it would make more sense.

The reasoning and actual events undertaken by the US govt to ban all these drugs is a fascinating story that would likely shock most people .

Would anyone believe the Surgeon General actually saying that the "blackman" gets too hopped up on MJ and poses a threat to our white women? Probably not, but thats true. (the Surgeon should have smoked a fattie and chilled out a lil )

Lies and innuendo folks. And some things remain the same.

The only reason we as a country have not legalized marijauna , IMO, is geo-political posturing. The States do not want us to, and they are far too important a trading partner to piss off. It would jeopardize our somewhat open borders (that may change anyway in which case MJ for all) slowing down the crossing of truck trains and buses thus harming our own economy.

[BubberMiley]

It would jeopardize our somewhat open borders (that may change anyway in which case MJ for all) slowing down the crossing of truck trains and buses thus harming our own economy.

That's the official story; the unofficial one is there's too much money to be made keeping it illegal.

[guyser]

It would jeopardize our somewhat open borders (that may change anyway in which case MJ for all) slowing down the crossing of truck trains and buses thus harming our own economy.

That's the official story; the unofficial one is there's too much money to be made keeping it illegal.

How so? Who is making the money to keep the status quo?

[BC_chick]

I appreciate all the comments for and against legalisation, but I was hoping to get a few comments about the article itself - where drugs would remain illegal but the approach for enforcement would differ, ie as an illness and focusing on prevention, or as a crime and getting tough on it.

Personally, I see that the "war on drugs" hasn't come far since the eighties when the term was coined. If it hasn't gotten worse, it definitely hasn't gotten any better, so I'm all for trying a different approach such as treating it as an illness and focusing on prevention.

I was surprised by the fact that 65% of Canadians felt the same way, so I wanted to get a feel for the forum and see how we compare to the national poll.

I think I'm going to add a poll and hope that those who have already looked and commented on the thread will partake in the poll also....

[geoffrey]

Let them do what they wish, if they choose to use illegal drugs, then they can die. If they choose not to, then great. End of story. Why should I have to pay for someone else's bad habits??? No one pays for my ski equipment despite that it could be easily classified as a dangerous addiction.

Sillyness. Giving them help too early just encourages further abuse. Like CA said the only way for them to quit is to hit rock bottom. I say let them fall. They made the choice to use the drugs after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

[guyser]

Let them do what they wish, if they choose to use illegal drugs, then they can die. If they choose not to, then great. End of story. Why should I have to pay for someone else's bad habits??? No one pays for my ski equipment despite that it could be easily classified as a dangerous addiction.

They made the choice to use the drugs after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

I happen to agree.

But one thing to clarify here. Lets use your words to illustrate it.

They made the choice to SKI after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

So, when and if you have a horrible accident in the back country I will expect you to lie down and die. Sorry , we all make bad choices and have to live with it. There will be no Medi-Vac , no Ambulance , but your friends could try and heal your broken neck/back/bones.

In other words, you are advocating a very slippery slope.

[BC_chick]

They made the choice to SKI after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

So, when and if you have a horrible accident in the back country I will expect you to lie down and die. Sorry , we all make bad choices and have to live with it.

You beat me to it, I was going to say the same thing.....

No more search and rescue for the hikers and skiers and snowboarders who get lost.... they made a choice to endanger themselves, too bad so sad if they die!

Right?

[Fortunata]

Let them do what they wish, if they choose to use illegal drugs, then they can die.

Nice.

...scientists and physicians overwhelmingly agree that while use and even abuse of drugs such as alcohol and cocaine is a behavior over which the individual exerts control, addiction to these substances is something different. Scientists have begun to understand why addicted people may sacrifice everything that's important to them -- their jobs, their families, their homes -- in the quest for a chemical fix.

...Addiction is a disease that causes changes in the brain, which then drive certain behavior -- taking the drug compulsively -- but addicts can learn to change the behavior. Treatment of and recovery from addiction are possible.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/closetohome/science/index.html

Now if you get the disease cancer geoffrey would you like it treated, cured? Or should we just put you out on an iceflow to die?

[Riverwind]

Now if you get the disease cancer geoffrey would you like it treated, cured? Or should we just put you out on an iceflow to die?

Most people will accept the treatment offered when are diagnosed with a disease. The problem with addicts is they generally are not willing to accept the required treatment. This means society has to structure it programs in way that encourages addicts to accept the available treatments. If putting addicts on a ice flow to die convinces them to choose treatment then we should put addicts on a ice flow.

[blueblood]

Let them do what they wish, if they choose to use illegal drugs, then they can die. If they choose not to, then great. End of story. Why should I have to pay for someone else's bad habits??? No one pays for my ski equipment despite that it could be easily classified as a dangerous addiction.

Sillyness. Giving them help too early just encourages further abuse. Like CA said the only way for them to quit is to hit rock bottom. I say let them fall. They made the choice to use the drugs after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

At least skiing is a HEALTHY physical activity. Trying to argue along the lines of not being able to go skiing as a dangerous activity makes as much sense as saying we shouldn't pay healthcare for someone with skin cancer because they chose to go outside. Drugs are illegal because they can seriously screw you up and due to that healthcare and social services gets plugged up. Making a conscious choice to screw taxpayers and the rest of us over due to selfishness like that should be illegal. Skiing is healthy, exercise, and doesn't cause long term psychological and physical problems. I'd say to hell with them too, but I'm going to pay in the long run due to healthcare costs. If drugs weren't viewed as cool we wouldn't be in this mess.

[BubberMiley]

If drugs weren't viewed as cool we wouldn't be in this mess.

If drugs weren't illegal, they wouldn't be viewed as cool. Tell the kids in junior high you sniff glue or gas and they'll laugh at you.

[blueblood]

If drugs weren't viewed as cool we wouldn't be in this mess.

If drugs weren't illegal, they wouldn't be viewed as cool. Tell the kids in junior high you sniff glue or gas and they'll laugh at you.

That's one way of looking at it. Look at drunk driving though, lots of people don't consider it cool and it's illegal on top of it. Booze is legal and its still cool. IMO if drugs just flat out weren't cool, no problem. Some pot users say crystal meth (illegal) isn't cool so don't use it.

[geoffrey]

They made the choice to SKI after all, a little bit of responsibility placed on the users would go a long long way.

So, when and if you have a horrible accident in the back country I will expect you to lie down and die. Sorry , we all make bad choices and have to live with it. There will be no Medi-Vac , no Ambulance , but your friends could try and heal your broken neck/back/bones.

In other words, you are advocating a very slippery slope.

When a druggy OD's, we should treat them and give them the opportunity to enter rehab. If they choose not to, throw them back on the street and hope that they either finish the job next time, or choose rehab the next time.

Giving them their drugs and needles doesn't really accomplish anything but sustaining the problem.

No more search and rescue for the hikers and skiers and snowboarders who get lost.... they made a choice to endanger themselves, too bad so sad if they die!

Right?

Wrong, skiers and snowboarders are 99 times out of 100 taxpayers. We pay for park services, both in taxes and in park fees. So no. Nice try.

When do you think the last time a hooker in Downtown Vancouver filed a tax return? These people have choosen their self-destruction, and helping them out prevents them from hitting that rock bottom needed to either fix them up or allow them to end their own burden on society (notice how I don't think we should kill them... relevant to another post ). Either way, it's their choice. They can go into recovery, or not.

[Catchme]

There are so many misconceptions flying about addicts and what the problems and solutions are that it is laughable.

Not all addicts have to hit the bottom before they choose recovery programs, or want help. In fact, the vast majority would access the programs if available or they had the money to go to a private one.

There is not enough treatment programs available, many who want to access them cannot get spaces. Or they do not have the money to access them.

Millions of addicts are tax paying citizens. Unions have their own treatment centres and programs even. Addiction crosses all walks of life, and is not limited to hookers or people living in the street unemployed. I would say those who live on the streets and who hook, are in fact the minority stats in addiction problems.

For example, one of my good friend's husband is a lawyer, well now he is ex-husband, she had no idea he was a coke addict until she got a Visa bill for 60k worth of cash withdrawls to pay for his habit, he had been hiding them from her. And all the while he was working as a lawyer, and paying taxes imagine that , eh?

People really should research and find out facts about addictions, before they start saying things like; put them on ice flows or kick them to the streets so they can bottom out or die.

Police forces would love to give addicts the choice of rehab over putting them back on the streets, they can't, there is not programs enough to do what geoffery is suggesting. Everyone knows this, so I guess they just want addicts to die. Funny really, and it appears those who say such things also say they are pro-life, it seems they are the furthest thing from being pro-life.

Israel has a great, state paid for 24 hr herion detox program, works terrific with high %'s of success. We also have it in Canada, but the addict has to pay 10k, at least, for it. Of course most cannot afford it.So, what does the province do? They put them into a medicare sponsored methadone program for years on end. So in the end, the province pays way more for a methadone program that keeps people addicted, rather than paying the 10k for instant 24hr detox from herion.

They have even started putting cocaine addicts on the methadone program, even though they are 2 separate addiction types. The philophy is, I guess, if their going to have an addiction, it might as well be a legal paid for by medicare one. But the reality is, the person now has 2 addictions, one to opiates and another to cocaine. The methadone does not replace cocaine addictions.

[jester]

How far should drug treatment be allowed to go.............

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

Plan to vaccinate babies against drugs | the Daily Mail

[jbg]

If drugs weren't viewed as cool we wouldn't be in this mess.

If drugs weren't illegal, they wouldn't be viewed as cool. Tell the kids in junior high you sniff glue or gas and they'll laugh at you.

Bull. Sex isn't illegal. It certainly is viewed as "cool", as is explicitly sexual rap music.

[BubberMiley]

Bull. Sex isn't illegal. It certainly is viewed as "cool", as is explicitly sexual rap music.

But they are taboos. Before criminalization, drug use in our society was negligible. Only now that the FDA is looking at regulating or criminalizing salvia are kids starting to look at it as a potential pasttime. Until then, nobody had even heard of it.