Prayers before a vote

[August1991]

Amid the secular mayhem of voting in the Liberal leadership convention on Saturday, five young Stephane Dion supporters retreated to a quiet corner to pray.

In the makeshift room of worship with a plain white sheet acting as a prayer carpet, the young Muslims give thanks for the chance for a say in the future of their country.

They pray for the wisdom to choose the right man. But even at this solemn moment, a little partisan politics drifts into conversation.

"We want the person that's best for Canada, so definitely for us that's Stephane Dion, somebody we're behind 100 per cent," said Mousa Qasqas, a young Muslim from Calgary wearing Dion's green scarf.

"I don't think there's a contradiction, it goes hand-in-hand. There's all this commotion going on, but the prayer brings us back and grounds us."

The young men said while they support Dion, including a couple who came via the Gerard Kennedy camp, they became much more involved when they decided Michael Ignatieff had to be stopped.

CP

I think Martin prayed in church several days before his convention - but he made it plain that it was personal. He was about to vote in favour of same sex marriage. If five nuns had gone to a sanctuary before voting for Kennedy, would this be news? How about five Harper born-again Christian delegates kneeling down before voting for Harper? Would the CBC report this?

Do you know what bothers me about this comparison? Radical fundamentalist Christians don't fly big planes into big buildings killing random people. Fundamentalist Christians are not a violent threat to western civilization. Fundamentalist Muslims are a threat to our way of life.

Do you know what else bothers me about this comparison? I went to university with crucifixes on the wall. With time, we have now eliminated this. I think it's wrong to bring it back.

Is there a comparison? I don't know. But a political convention is no place for ostentatious expressions of religion. Canadians used to be Catholic and Protestants. We managed this difference, at great cost, with peace. Montreal's school system is now divided by language - not religion.

The last thing Canadians want is another attempt to bring religion into our political affairs. Prayer in church or at home is one's own affair - it has no place at a political convention. If a person must pray five times a day, then that person should not be a political militant in a democracy.

What does this portend for Canadian democracy? How does Dion feel about this?

Is Dion a true liberal? What does he say to the constitutents in his own riding?

[jdobbin]

Amid the secular mayhem of voting in the Liberal leadership convention on Saturday, five young Stephane Dion supporters retreated to a quiet corner to pray.

In the makeshift room of worship with a plain white sheet acting as a prayer carpet, the young Muslims give thanks for the chance for a say in the future of their country.

They pray for the wisdom to choose the right man. But even at this solemn moment, a little partisan politics drifts into conversation.

"We want the person that's best for Canada, so definitely for us that's Stephane Dion, somebody we're behind 100 per cent," said Mousa Qasqas, a young Muslim from Calgary wearing Dion's green scarf.

"I don't think there's a contradiction, it goes hand-in-hand. There's all this commotion going on, but the prayer brings us back and grounds us."

The young men said while they support Dion, including a couple who came via the Gerard Kennedy camp, they became much more involved when they decided Michael Ignatieff had to be stopped.

CP

I think Martin prayed in church several days before his convention - but he made it plain that it was personal. He was about to vote in favour of same sex marriage. If five nuns had gone to a sanctuary before voting for Kennedy, would this be news? How about five Harper born-again Christian delegates kneeling down before voting for Harper? Would the CBC report this?

Do you know what bothers me about this comparison? Radical fundamentalist Christians don't fly big planes into big buildings killing random people. Fundamentalist Christians are not a violent threat to western civilization. Fundamentalist Muslims are a threat to our way of life.

Do you know what else bothers me about this comparison? I went to university with crucifixes on the wall. With time, we have now eliminated this. I think it's wrong to bring it back.

Is there a comparison? I don't know. But a political convention is no place for ostentatious expressions of religion. Canadians used to be Catholic and Protestants. We managed this difference, at great cost, with peace. Montreal's school system is now divided by language - not religion.

The last thing Canadians want is another attempt to bring religion into our political affairs. Prayer in church or at home is one's own affair - it has no place at a political convention. If a person must pray five times a day, then that person should not be a political militant in a democracy.

What does this portend for Canadian democracy? How does Dion feel about this?

Is Dion a true liberal? What does he say to the constitutents in his own riding?

This was a CP story. It also talks about how a high school cheerleader hit on Dryden.

CP was looking for stories that had nothing to do with the campaign. Some people here found them interesting. I think the condom stories were the ones that seemed to illicit excitement.

[Riverwind]

"I don't think there's a contradiction, it goes hand-in-hand. There's all this commotion going on, but the prayer brings us back and grounds us."

Frankly, I am glad to see immigrants of all sorts partitipate in our political process. I beleive immigrants that participate politically are more likely to intergrate into mainstream society in other ways because it is impossible to participate without coming to terms with the diversity around them.

[August1991]

This was a CP story.

Four questions:

Is the news report false?

If five born-again Christian Harper supporters had gone to pray for the defeat of Dion, would the CBC/CP have reported it?

In 1968 or 1957, how would national news media have reported such prayers?

How will it report such prayers at a convention in 2046 or 2056?

[bk59]

This was a CP story. It also talks about how a high school cheerleader hit on Dryden.

LOL

The quote was this:

Ken Dryden was being hit on like a high-school cheerleader...

But thanks for the mental image of Dryden being hit on by cheerleaders!

[August1991]

Frankly, I am glad to see immigrants of all sorts partitipate in our political process. I beleive immigrants that participate politically are more likely to intergrate into mainstream society in other ways because it is impossible to participate without coming to terms with the diversity around them.

I can't agree more. But integration and assimilation means adopting western values: the scientific method and critical thought while maintaining faith. Going off to pray for the defeat of a political opponent is not, uh, progressive.

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

[gc1765]

I can't agree more. But integration and assimilation means adopting western values: the scientific method and critical thought while maintaining faith. Going off to pray for the defeat of a political opponent is not, uh, progressive.

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

I don't see a problem with praying at the election. Who cares? Whether they are Christian or Muslim, they are entitled to their beliefs.

Also, I'm pretty sure these people who were praying were not suicide bombers either, so where's the problem?

[bk59]

Do you know what bothers me about this comparison? Radical fundamentalist Christians don't fly big planes into big buildings killing random people. Fundamentalist Christians are not a violent threat to western civilization. Fundamentalist Muslims are a threat to our way of life.

I'm not sure how you jumped from what was reported to these statements. It seems pretty clear that these people are not terrorists... they are just people who took some time out of the convention to pray.

But a political convention is no place for ostentatious expressions of religion.

This really didn't seem that ostentatious to me. There was a small room set up somewhere, they went there to pray. It may have been different if they had stopped the convention and made all of the delegates take time to pray right there on the convention floor.

The last thing Canadians want is another attempt to bring religion into our political affairs. Prayer in church or at home is one's own affair - it has no place at a political convention. If a person must pray five times a day, then that person should not be a political militant in a democracy.

This wasn't an attempt to bring religion into our political affairs. It was a small number of delegates taking some time to pray during the convention. I'm willing to bet they weren't the only ones praying during the convention. The only difference is they went to a separate room to say their prayers. Rather than under their breaths just before the voting results were announced.

Excluding people from the political process because they pray is a horrible idea. Let them pray and let them participate. People from different religions / denominations have been doing this throughout Canada's history. The simple fact that someone prays does not necessarily mean that they are going to force their religious views on someone else.

What does this portend for Canadian democracy?

Nothing really. Prayer, like the prayer described here, is personal and has been happening throughout Canadian history. If anything it might just strengthen our democracy by showing people of different religions that they too can participate in this country's future. When someone starts trying to force religious views into government policy, then it's time to worry. Personal prayer is not a threat.

[Riverwind]

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

Fundamentalist Muslims don't murder doctors that provide abortion. There is a huge difference between a murderous fanatic and a devout follower. Those Muslims were participating in our political process and supporting candidates that were not Muslim. If anything, you should be ecstatic that Muslims were praying for someone like Dion. If that is not evidence of a willingness to integrate and accept democratic ideals then I don't know what is.

[geoffrey]

Frankly, I am glad to see immigrants of all sorts partitipate in our political process. I beleive immigrants that participate politically are more likely to intergrate into mainstream society in other ways because it is impossible to participate without coming to terms with the diversity around them.

I can't agree more. But integration and assimilation means adopting western values: the scientific method and critical thought while maintaining faith. Going off to pray for the defeat of a political opponent is not, uh, progressive.

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

That's a very strong stand August. I'm not so quick to jump in on these people and tell them to take their Allah elsewhere.

It's not like they took a spot in the middle of the room and started screaming out primal chants. They did it out of the way. They may have been trying to avoid media attention all together, but when the cameras come you've got to think fast.

I don't feel like this is a lack of assimilation. They weren't making a statement, they weren't trying to press their religion upon us. Really, what people do in their time in private is not my concern, and that's what this sounds like, it should have been in private.

Would this have been reported in the '50's? Yes... with a completely different tone. Who the hell were Muslims in the 50's? You know what I mean... it wasn't a mainstream thing. It'd be looked upon like a travelling circus exhibit with rare foreign animals.

Will this be reported in the future? Depends, does society take a step back and make a big deal about these small expressions of faith? Or do we just accept the freedom that people have to make religious decisions on their own in private?

Why was it reported? Because it's a neat new thing, still along lines of that travelling circus I spoke of.

I have little issue with this. Assimilate yes, but in private (which this was intended to be), I don't think we have any right to tell someone what or not to do.

[August1991]

Prayer, like the prayer described here, is personal and has been happening throughout Canadian history.

Has the prayer of Canadian history lead to big airplanes flying into big buildings and deliberately killing innocent, random people?

If a politician or a political militant goes off to seek moral guidance (even by prayer), I have no problem. I am more concerned with the consequence of the prayer.

By experience, ostentatious prayer is rarely a good signal. We have wisely put this in its proper place in western, civilized society. Now is no time to resurrect it.

I'm astonished that we accept Islamic prayer yet reject Christian prayer. I even object to the comparison.

[gc1765]

Has the prayer of Canadian history lead to big airplanes flying into big buildings and deliberately killing innocent, random people?

If a politician or a political militant goes off to seek moral guidance (even by prayer), I have no problem. I am more concerned with the consequence of the prayer.

Has the prayer at the convention lead to airplanes being flown into buildings? Do you belive that these people praying at the convention will fly airplanes into a building? What consequences are you worried about?

[jdobbin]

This was a CP story.

Four questions:

Is the news report false?

If five born-again Christian Harper supporters had gone to pray for the defeat of Dion, would the CBC/CP have reported it?

In 1968 or 1957, how would national news media have reported such prayers?

How will it report such prayers at a convention in 2046 or 2056?

No.

Yes.

They often reported on people praying in 1957 and 1968. Diefenbaker was an evangelical. Trudeau was a believer in Catholic Personalism.

If people are praying, there will be reports on what religion and who it is in 2046 and 2056.

They will probably also report if former goalies are being propositioned like cheerleaders.

[jdobbin]

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

Fundamentalists Christians helped shoot a doctor in Winnipeg.

[bk59]

Prayer, like the prayer described here, is personal and has been happening throughout Canadian history.

Has the prayer of Canadian history lead to big airplanes flying into big buildings and deliberately killing innocent, random people?

If a politician or a political militant goes off to seek moral guidance (even by prayer), I have no problem. I am more concerned with the consequence of the prayer.

You seem to think that any Muslim praying is automatically a terrorist. How are you connecting these delegates to terrorists?

When you see a Christian praying do you automatically think that he or she is planning to murder abortion doctors?

When you see a Catholic priest standing at the front of the church do you automatically think that he is molesting children?

Do not confuse the actions of an extremely small number of extremists with the views of an entire religion. The type of link that you are trying to make here is what is damaging to Canadian democracy. You are saying to these people that even when they try to participate in the democratic process they will still be regarded with suspicion simply because of their faith. Personal prayer, such as what happened at the convention, should be welcomed in our society no matter what religion these people believe in.

[bk59]

By experience, ostentatious prayer is rarely a good signal. We have wisely put this in its proper place in western, civilized society. Now is no time to resurrect it.

I'm astonished that we accept Islamic prayer yet reject Christian prayer. I even object to the comparison.

This prayer wasn't ostentatious. They had a separate space that they went to for prayer. Some media happened to follow them for this article. It's a non-factor.

Christian prayer is not being rejected here. If they had wanted to set up a space for prayer that would have been just fine in my opinion.

[Charles Anthony]

But integration and assimilation means adopting western values: the scientific method and critical thought while maintaining faith. Going off to pray for the defeat of a political opponent is not, uh, progressive.

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

Look, Argus1991, somehow, part of me suspects that you are throwing this out here just to stir up debate more than you are truly expressing all of your opinions.

The biggest paradox that I see in this report is that:

1) our government needs prayer more than anything else

2) praying to God to guide the Liberal leadership is insulting (hint, hint: maybe God has more dire emergencies?? maybe there are people in the world in greater need than Liberal delegates??)

It makes me think of when I prayed before Christmas to get a new bicycle.

I think this:

I'm astonished that we accept Islamic prayer yet reject Christian prayer. I even object to the comparison.

is an important point and I agree. However, I believe Christians are to blame.

I car-pooled frequently with one of my school-mates years ago. (We lived in the same hometown; we drove back and forth on holidays or long weekends. He made it very clear from the get-go that he needed to stop and pray precisely at this-or-that time. He pulled out his little compass -- like an ornamental pocket-watch -- and rolled out his mat outside off in the corner away from the traffic. I stood aside (partly giggling) like a bodyguard for about 10 minutes.

I also sat beside an other school-mate during our graduation banquet who ate nothing because the separation of the milk from the main dish was unclear to him. He just drank water.

These forms of devotion and dedication to faith are powerful. They make me feel small.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

Your first friend was obviously Muslim, the second a Jew trying to keep dietary law, or 'kashrut' (or something like that).

These forms of devotion and dedication to faith are powerful. They make me feel small.

Powerful, yes, but to me they represent that which is wrong with religious devotion. The observance of millenia-old trivialities while missing the 'big picture'.

[Charles Anthony]

When married-folk remove wedding or engagement rings in other traditions (religious or secular) before going out, it represents a shedding of a sacrifice.

The observance of millenia-old trivialities while missing the 'big picture'.

They represent a symbol of the ability to make a sacrifice which is part of the bigger picture -- maybe something that is lacking in our world. They also represent a degree of strength.

I understand that what we eat and how much extra time we spend praying (instead of feeding starving people next door) may be misplaced sacrifices. However, most of what we do and consume are luxuries -- there is no end to the things we do which are trivial.

[newbie]

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

Fundamentalists Christians helped shoot a doctor in Winnipeg.

A born again Christian (G.W.) invaded another country illegally and was responsible for the deaths of countless thousands of innocent people...people who would be safer now than before the deathly intrusion by this so-called "Christian."

[Remiel]

I see your game, imposter. You try to deflect attention from yourself by accusing another of being replaced, in that case, jdobbin. However, in reality you were the alien. What have you done with August1991? We do not negotiate with activists.

[Black Dog]

Evidently, I'm not the only one who was posting while sloshed this weekend.

August makes a comparison (Christians and Muslims), then rebukes it, then wonders if there is a comparison being made at all. Then he throws in an unrelated shot about "fundamentalist Islam" (as though that has sweet F.A. to do with the article) before meandering over to his point:

The last thing Canadians want is another attempt to bring religion into our political affairs. Prayer in church or at home is one's own affair - it has no place at a political convention.

As if the actions of a handful of individuals exercising their personal religious beliefs in a quasi-public way is such an attempt.

He manages to fire a shot at Muslims...

If a person must pray five times a day, then that person should not be a political militant in a democracy

Before his head hits the bar with an audible "thud".

Another round later...

Integration and assimilation means adopting western values: the scientific method and critical thought while maintaining faith. Going off to pray for the defeat of a political opponent is not, uh, progressive.

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

So, you can maintain faith while adopting to western ways, but for the love of Pete, don't express that faith where someone might see you especially if you are a suicide bomber. Or something.

If a politician or a political militant goes off to seek moral guidance (even by prayer), I have no problem. I am more concerned with the consequence of the prayer.

You mean, if God/Allah/Yahweh actually listens? No? Then what?

By experience, ostentatious prayer is rarely a good signal. We have wisely put this in its proper place in western, civilized society. Now is no time to resurrect it.

Five Muslims, Jews or Christians do not an ostentatious display make. 16,000 teenagers freaking out to shitty, watered-down Christian rock, weeping and speaking in tounges? That's ostentatious .

Must've been one helluva session. Have a drink on me!

[myata]

Look. Fundamentalist Christians may be crazy but they're not suicide bombers. I can't say the same about fundamentalist Muslims.

Over and again. You want to fan out fear to make us believe that radical Islam wants to impose its values on us, but there isn't really any proof for that. Maybe what they really want is to be left alone in their own lands. And, when a hugely superior force just wouldn't let them (be left alone and have their way in their own land), people will resent. And resist. Some will resist violently. A fraction will go to irrational lenghts.

It's really simple. Leave them alone. For at least as long as you've been meddling. And if, after that, they're still coming after you, you'd have a case. Before then, 0.

[Rue]

Can't wait for the following to demand equal rights when praying during political conventions;

-satanists (they will want to cut off goat heads and draw pentograms and light candles)

-pagans (they are all sex maniacs and will want to run around naked and chant and have open fires)

-gays (they pray to their prophets Elton John,Marlyn Monroe and Judy Garland amd they play dance music when they pray)

-hasidic Jews (they will compete with space with the Sikhs and Muslims or anyone else with beards which could be simply pinkos)

-humanists (they insist on going around and hugging people)

-Reiki practitioners (at least they won't touch anyone).

Ah the politics of inclusivity. I personally believe if people want to pray they should go somewhere private. Then again I prefer a private cubicle to a stall when given the choice. I could have a bias about public displays.

[Black Dog]

Rue:

Ah the politics of inclusivity. I personally believe if people want to pray they should go somewhere private. Then again I prefer a private cubicle to a stall when given the choice. I could have a bias about public displays.

Read the article:

Amid the secular mayhem of voting in the Liberal leadership convention on Saturday, five young Stephane Dion supporters retreated to a quiet corner to pray.

In the makeshift room of worship with a plain white sheet acting as a prayer carpet, the young Muslims give thanks for the chance for a say in the future of their country.

Sounds like they set a room aside for themselves so they could pray and not get in anyone's faces.

It's a shame the most interesting point seems to have been lost amidst August's hullabaloo about the appropriateness of prayer at a political event. That point would be this:

Amid the secular mayhem of voting in the Liberal leadership convention on Saturday, five young Stephane Dion supporters retreated to a quiet corner to pray.

...the young Muslims give thanks for the chance for a say in the future of their country.

Whether this is the reporter's creation or something they got from the worshippers is beside the point: here we have a group of people who appreciate the chance to play a part in our country's future and who show that appreciation through a personal, private expression of their religious belief. It's all very...Liberal.