New Submarines: Carney vs Poilievre

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

The military is spending huge amounts of money on research to defend against drones to protect those bil machines...

Yeah it's a global problem humans everywhere have to labour under/for. Getting along sounds a lot better. Anyone ever thought of that?

What a freaking waste of just about everything - time, money, resources. Especially time in light of climate change.

Oh well, maybe the AI's will take over and force us to settle our issues with a nice game of chess instead.

[John Stone]

On 11/11/2025 at 8:26 PM, August1991 said:

I agree.

Arctic Ocean? WTF?

=====

Harper wisely bought a few costly C-17s. This is Canada: When needed, fly in to fix the problem.

=====

Carney is doing what Trump wants - spend zillions on useless nonsense hardawre.

 

the arctic ocean, specifically the Northwest Passage, is hugely strategic - unfortunately it's in our backyard? Soon, it will become a major shipping route for China - why take the Panama (Trump wants that too) when it's easier and a shorter route thru the north - did I mention Greenland (Trump wants that too)? I have no doubt that without allies, Canada will lose our northern sovereignty. Canada is like a whore laying on the ground with her legs open. 

[Venandi]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

Getting along sounds a lot better. Anyone ever thought of that?

The people who've actually read your posts don't think that's likely to work...

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, John Stone said:

the arctic ocean, specifically the Northwest Passage, is hugely strategic - unfortunately it's in our backyard? Soon, it will become a major shipping route for China - why take the Panama (Trump wants that too) when it's easier and a shorter route thru the north 

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it?

Why not just get along instead of inventing more problems?

6 hours ago, Venandi said:

The people who've actually read your posts don't think that's likely to work...

I honestly wonder if a lot of them care or even really want it to.

[Legato]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I honestly wonder if a lot of them care or even really want it to.

Wonder? Just do a 5 minute study of human nature.

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, Legato said:

Wonder? Just do a 5 minute study of human nature.

Sure but in the meantime, again I ask.

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

How does that hurt your nature?

Don't they have dolls for this sort of thing so people can actually point at something?

[John Stone]

27 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Sure but in the meantime, again I ask.

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

How does that hurt your nature?

Don't they have dolls for this sort of thing so people can actually point at something?

 

27 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Sure but in the meantime, again I ask.

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

How does that hurt your nature?

Don't they have dolls for this sort of thing so people can actually point at something?

re: What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

Suppose that's one way to look at it. 

Canada asserts that the Northwest Passage is part of its INTERNAL waters and  subject to Canadian laws? However, China views it as an international strait, advocating for unfettered passage. Increased Chinese shipping activity could pressure Canada to DEFEND it territorial claim and potentially lead to diplomatic disputes, esp if future Chinese policy shifts toward treating the route as international waters. 

[Legato]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Sure but in the meantime, again I ask.

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

How does that hurt your nature?

Don't they have dolls for this sort of thing so people can actually point at something?

Goalposts

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, John Stone said:

Canada asserts that the Northwest Passage is part of its INTERNAL waters and  subject to Canadian laws? However, China views it as an international strait, advocating for unfettered passage. Increased Chinese shipping activity could pressure Canada to DEFEND it territorial claim and potentially lead to diplomatic disputes, esp if future Chinese policy shifts toward treating the route as international waters. 

No country on Earth recognizes our assertion. I fail to see why or how our spending $600 billion on a fleet of submarines will change very many minds.

There is just no way Canada could ever hope to militarily enforce its assertion against the whole world. We're nuts to even make it.  Only in the narrowest channels could we make a credible case for ownership of the sea bottom and fisheries but not navigable waters.

We're far better off encouraging a cooperative international effort to maintain and enhance existing agreements around environmental protection, marine traffic control, fisheries management, smuggling etc.

 

 

[herbie]

On 11/12/2025 at 4:17 AM, Down East said:

nuclear powered or AIP variant subs are the way to go for RCN because that they have far superior arctic endurance and can hide under the cap for longer periods of tim

A feature we don't need. do we?

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure but in the meantime, again I ask.

What exactly is wrong with China burning less fossil fuels to ship most of the planet's consumables to it by going thru the Arctic?

How does that hurt your nature?

Don't they have dolls for this sort of thing so people can actually point at something?

 

Nothing is wrong with China using inter national waters, but Canada has it's own claims to its borders, you or the world does not have to like it, but that is what our elected government claims...and patrols and defends.

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

A feature we don't need. do we?

If we are going to patrol the artic then your going to need those features....Or are you saying the NAVY does not know what it is talking about....or is this your opinion Admiral.

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

No country on Earth recognizes our assertion. I fail to see why or how our spending $600 billion on a fleet of submarines will change very many minds.

There is just no way Canada could ever hope to militarily enforce its assertion against the whole world. We're nuts to even make it.  Only in the narrowest channels could we make a credible case for ownership of the sea bottom and fisheries but not navigable waters.

We're far better off encouraging a cooperative international effort to maintain and enhance existing agreements around environmental protection, marine traffic control, fisheries management, smuggling etc.

 

 

The cost of the subs is not 600 bil.... it is estimated at 100 bil for the next 30 years. if your going to lie, you should not be afraid to be fact checked...Hence why we belong to NATO and other defensive contracts and they will defend against the world. 

Again Canada belongs to many defensive agreements that most of the free western world agreed to come to our aid. And it is the very reason why we must be ready to defend another nation as per the pacts...

Canada already has agreements as you suggest with many nations, The world is not full of unicorns and rainbows....every nation must be able to defend its sovereignty or risk losing it...end of story....that is what is going on here. and many snow flakes are afraid this is going to cut into their social programs...And yet Canadians cut our military to the bone in order to have it's current social programs....for decades...and now it is time to pay the piper, Because the world demands it....your shedding tears because the free ride is over.... yelling we don't need this or that...is what is wrong with this nation...

 

 

[blackbird]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Getting along sounds a lot better. Anyone ever thought of that?

Do you know why mankind often doesn't get along?

Of course not.  

Edited November 15, 2025 by blackbird

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

f we are going to patrol the artic then your going to need those features

Admiral 2025 says there's no need at all for a Cdn sub to remain submerged for an extended length of time. They're not nuclear missile subs nor is there an intention to be used in an attack roll.
If you can explain otherwise, then do so sparing the sales pitch for spending even more besides having an even bigger deficit to shreik at the Liberals  about.

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

The cost of the subs is not 600 bil.... it is estimated at 100 bil for the next 30 years. if your going to lie, you should not be afraid to be fact checked..

My mistake, I mis-recalled a $60 billion cost figure. If I have no issue with being fact checked you shouldn't be afraid to dial it back on the liar card.

36 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Canada already has agreements as you suggest with many nations, The world is not full of unicorns and rainbows....every nation must be able to defend its sovereignty or risk losing it...end of story...

Sure lets do both then. Buy a bunch of subs and not get excited when a bunch of countries send their freighters thru the Arctic. We'll just follow them.

40 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

that is what is going on here. and many snow flakes are afraid this is going to cut into their social programs..

I doubt they'll cut into anything of the sort. They'll just keep spending like drunken submariners.  The biggest flakes will be the ones crying about who's paying for it.

45 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And yet Canadians cut our military to the bone in order to have it's current social programs....for decades...and now it is time to pay the piper, 

That's not why I supported cutting it. I wanted as little of my money being squandered on following our allies around on their military adventures as possible.

In any case I see no reason at all to cut social programs to make way for your issues. You know the country certainly won't stand for it. So....just print your money like everyone else on the world will be doing and go for it.

54 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Because the world demands it....your shedding tears because the free ride is over.... yelling we don't need this or that...is what is wrong with this nation...

Sure, I'll try to remember that when you're the one yelling.

 

[Venandi]

36 minutes ago, herbie said:

They're not nuclear missile subs nor is there an intention to be used in an attack roll.

Nuclear powered, not boomers though... and they actually are honest to goodness attack submarines Herb. Were you expecting one of those tourist sight seeing thingies? 

IMO the argument here isn't do we need them, if you want a credible under ice deterrent with long duration and high speed capabilities you most definitely do need them. So yes, being submerged for a long period of time really is the point here. The issue for Canada isn't a case of need, it's a question of practicality.

Even manning is a problem here, a typical SSN requires (about) twice the crew size and would demand training an entirely new generation of submariners with all of the infrastructure required to support the effort. It would be years in the making unless you think 130 civil servants per sub are up to the task after a one week course.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2025 by Venandi

[Army Guy]

8 minutes ago, herbie said:

Admiral 2025 says there's no need at all for a Cdn sub to remain submerged for an extended length of time. They're not nuclear missile subs nor is there an intention to be used in an attack roll.
If you can explain otherwise, then do so sparing the sales pitch for spending even more besides having an even bigger deficit to shreik at the Liberals  about.

BS, the admiral has had a major hand in setting up the specs for the new subs, one of the specs is to be able to remain submerged for 3 weeks or more....to be able transit the artic circle in the winter...if that was not the case he would have removed that spec....

Stop....do some research on this, you have no idea what they will be used for, part of the subs capabilities is to be used offensively  in the attack role....every weapons system in the military is designed to be used defensively and offensively , one can do both in the same attack actually...

Herb these are the guys you voted for was it not, they are setting the new rules....not conservatives...you can't have it both ways....The NAVY set the specs, and the government is going to buy 12 of these subs...

  

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Do you know why mankind often doesn't get along?

Of course not.  

Of course I do, everyone knows its religion often as not.

[blackbird]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Of course I do, everyone knows its religion often as not.

Then why were millions of the true Bible-believing Christians killed in the last 2,000 years by those following false religions or by the heathen?

Why do you not believe the Bible that says to love thy neighbour as thyself?   Don't you think that is the way the world should think?   What about the commandments in the Bible to love God, love thy neighbour, do not steal, do not kill, etc.?  Do you really believe all those commandments taught in the Bible are bad?

Or do you believe Socialism/Communism or some other man-made ideology will bring peace to the world?   If the Bible and Christianity is as bad as you claim, what do you have to offer in its place?

[John Stone]

18 hours ago, eyeball said:

No country on Earth recognizes our assertion. I fail to see why or how our spending $600 billion on a fleet of submarines will change very many minds.

There is just no way Canada could ever hope to militarily enforce its assertion against the whole world. We're nuts to even make it.  Only in the narrowest channels could we make a credible case for ownership of the sea bottom and fisheries but not navigable waters.

We're far better off encouraging a cooperative international effort to maintain and enhance existing agreements around environmental protection, marine traffic control, fisheries management, smuggling etc.

 

 

 

[eyeball]

58 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Then why were millions of the true Bible-believing Christians killed in the last 2,000 years by those following false religions or by the heathen?

Probably because Christians behaved the very same way as any other dumbass heathen.

 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Why do you not believe the Bible that says to love thy neighbour as thyself? 

Learning how to do unto others yadda yadda in kindergarten was sufficient.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Or do you believe Socialism/Communism or some other man-made ideology will bring peace to the world?

Nope, but leaving supernatural nonsense behind will go a long way towards it.

[John Stone]

2 minutes ago, John Stone said:

re: There is just no way Canada could ever hope to militarily enforce its assertion against the whole world.

oh, indeed, ergo the necessity of having reliable allies. NATO was an absolute bargain - all Canada needed to do was have a credible fighting  force, ie. well trained, equipped, deployable at short notice.     

[blackbird]

38 minutes ago, eyeball said:

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Then why were millions of the true Bible-believing Christians killed in the last 2,000 years by those following false religions or by the heathen?

Probably because Christians behaved the very same way as any other dumbass heathen.

 

This is where you obviously know nothing about history and are making false assumptions.

You need to read some history.  Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a good place to start and is available free to read online.

quote

In the fourteenth century, many of the Waldenses of Pragela and Dauphiny, emigrated to Calabria, and settling some waste lands, by the permission of the nobles of that country, they soon, by the most industrious cultivation, made several wild and barren spots appear with all the beauties of verdure and fertility. The Calabrian lords were highly pleased with their new subjects and tenants, as they were honest, quiet, and industrious; but the priests of the country exhibited several negative complaints against them; for not being able to accuse them of anythying bad which they did do, they founded accusations on what they did not do, and charged them, With not being Roman Catholics. With not making any of their boys priests. With not making any of their girls nuns. With not going to Mass. With not giving wax tapers to their priests as offerings. With not going on pilgrimages. With not bowing to images. The Calabrian lords, however, quieted the priests, by telling them that these people were extremely harmless; that they gave no offence to the Roman Catholics, and cheerfully paid the tithes to the priests, whose revenues were considerably increased by their coming into the country, and who, of consequence, ought to be the last persons to complain of them. Things went on tolerably well after this for a few years, during which the Waldenses formed themselves into two corporate towns, annexing several villages to the jurisdiction of them. At length they sent to Geneva for two clergymen; one to preach in each town, as they determined to make a public profession of their faith. Intelligence of this affair being carried to the pope, Pius the Fourth, he determined to exterminate them from Calabria. To this end he sent Cardinal Alexandrino, a man of very violent temper and a furious bigot, together with two monks, to Calabria, where they were to act as inquisitors. These authorized persons came to St. Xist, one of the towns built by the Waldenses, and having assembled the people, told them that they should receive no injury, if they would accept of preachers appointed by the pope; but if they would not, they should be deprived both of their properties and lives; and that their intentions might be known, Mass should be publicly said that afternoon, at which they were ordered to attend. The people of St. Xist, instead of attending Mass, fled into the woods, with their families, and thus disappointed the cardinal and his coadjutors. The cardinal then proceeded to La Garde, the other town belonging to the Waldenses, where, not to be served as he had been at St. Xist, he ordered the gates to be locked, and all avenues guarded. The same proposals were then made to the inhabitants of La Garde, as had previously been offered to those of St. Xist, but with this additional piece of artifice: the cardinal assured them that the inhabitants of St. Xist had immediately come into his proposals, and agreed that the pope should appoint them preachers. This falsehood succeeded; for the people of La Garde, thinking what the cardinal had told them to be the truth, said they would exactly follow the example of their brethren at St. Xist. The cardinal, having gained his point by deluding the people of one town, sent for troops of soldiers, with a view to murder those of the other. He, accordingly, despatched the soldiers into the woods, to hunt down the inhabitants of St. Xist like wild beasts, and gave them strict orders to spare neither age nor sex, but to kill all they came near. The troops entered the woods, and many fell a prey to their ferocity, before the Waldenses were properly apprised of their design. At length, however, they determined to sell their lives as dear as possible, when several conflicts happened, in which the half-armed Waldenses performed prodigies of valor, and many were slain on both sides. The greatest part of the troops being killed in the different rencontres, the rest were compelled to retreat, which so enraged the cardinal that he wrote to the viceroy of Naples for reinforcements. The viceroy immediately ordered a proclamation to be made thorughout all the Neapolitan territories, that all outlaws, deserters, and other proscribed persons should be surely pardoned for their respective offences, on condition of making a campaign against the inhabitants of St. Xist, and continuing under arms until those people were exterminated. Many persons of desperate fortunes came in upon this proclamation, and being formed into light companies, were sent to scour the woods, and put to death all they could meet with of the reformed religion. The viceroy himself likewise joined the cardinal, at the head of a body of regular forces; and, in conjunction, they did all they could to harass the poor people in the woods. Some they caught and hanged up upon trees, cut down boughs and burnt them, or ripped them open and left their bodies to be devoured by wild beasts, or birds of prey. Many they shot at a distance, but the greatest number they hunted down by way of sport. A few hid themselves in caves, but famine destroyed them in their retreat; and thus all these poor people perished, by various means, to glut the bigoted malice of their merciless persecutors. The inhabitants of St. Xist were no sooner exterminated, than those of La Garde engaged the attention of the cardinal and viceroy.   unquote

FOXE'S BOOK OF MARTYRS

Get a book on the History of the Inquisition.   Available on Amazon or even read free online.

Read some of Avro Manhattan's books free online at archive.com website.

Books such as:

Religious Terror in Ireland

The Vatican's Holocaust

    Hitler and the Nazis killed about six million Jews in the gas chambers because they were Jews.

   The Jihadists killed about 60,000 Christians in Nigeria in the last few years.

Edited November 15, 2025 by blackbird

[blackbird]

49 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Nope, but leaving supernatural nonsense behind will go a long way towards it.

That's what Chairman Mao did in China.  He abolished religion and Christianity and murdered around 100 million people.   That's what atheism does sometimes.