The very existence of Alligator Alcatraz reveals the Nazi mentality

[Deluge]

On 7/14/2025 at 3:35 PM, BeaverFever said:

Lol are you serious?  The hundreds of people who have been snatched up detained and deported without ever seeing the inside of a courtroom.

Illegal aliens just need to be deported. They can have their day in court at a POE or through a Zoom call while they're sitting in Mexico. 

[Michael Hardner]

On 7/13/2025 at 4:31 PM, Venandi said:

  it's Indistinguishable from the Biden era youth detention centres you previously thought were A-OK... 

Kudos for pointing out that prison conditions are a pervasive problem that neither USA party puts at the forefront of their policy statements.  

I think that the 'indistinguishable' part isn't correct: The Republicans drape these initiatives in language and images that relish brutality and mistreatment of prisoners.  I'm not sure the purpose of that but it seems to rally their supporters as well as poking the eyes of people who are openly empathetic of others...

[User]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Kudos for pointing out that prison conditions are a pervasive problem that neither USA party puts at the forefront of their policy statements.  

What prison conditions do you think are a problem here exactly?

It is a prison. It is not a 4-star hotel or vacation stay. These are temporary detention centers while people are being processed for deportation. 
 

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The Republicans drape these initiatives in language and images that relish brutality and mistreatment of prisoners. 

No, they do not drape these with images and language of "mistreatment" that is the left-wings distortion of things. What Republicans do is certainly brag about the overall nature of putting people in detention for the purpose of law enforcement operations, or specifically to enforce laws against illegal immigration. 

Bragging about these things is meant to be a deterrent. If you don't want to be detained for breaking our immigration laws... then don't break those laws. Self-deport, don't try to come here illegally. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, User said:

1. What prison conditions do you think are a problem here exactly?

2. It is a prison. It is not a 4-star hotel or vacation stay. These are temporary detention centers while people are being processed for deportation. 

3. No, they do not drape these with images and language of "mistreatment" that is the left-wings distortion of things.

4. Bragging about these things is meant to be a deterrent.  

1. Venandi provided an example, which is what I was responding too.
2. There's a big space between celebrating a place where alligators threaten to eat men in cages, and a 4-star hotel.  And right in the middle is Motel 6.
3. Of course they do.  From memory, Trump instructed police to not protect the heads of prisoners when they're putting them in the "paddy wagon".  I recall that it elicited laughter.  This is the culture I'm talking about.  Of course it flips if you're talking about one of the walking saints who broke into the capitol to poop on the desks of congressmen.  Don't play naive on this one - this is the whole brand.
4. Ok now you say that they DO brag... playing semantics is another cynical move by these criminals.

In any case, it's your country... enjoy it.

[User]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Venandi provided an example, which is what I was responding too.

No, he was responding to someone else saying things were A-OK. So, what problems were you thinking he gave an example of?

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. There's a big space between celebrating a place where alligators threaten to eat men in cages, and a 4-star hotel.  And right in the middle is Motel 6.

No one is actually threatening alligators to eat anyone literally here... UNLESS they happen to escape and run off into the evergaldes that have alligators in them. 

So, what exactly is your issue here with the detention facilities? 

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Of course they do.  From memory, Trump instructed police to not protect the heads of prisoners when they're putting them in the "paddy wagon".  I recall that it elicited laughter.  This is the culture I'm talking about.  Of course it flips if you're talking about one of the walking saints who broke into the capitol to poop on the desks of congressmen.  Don't play naive on this one - this is the whole brand.

That was some off hand comment going back to 2017 when he was joking to police officers. What does that have to do with any specific comments alluding to "mistreatment" of prisoners at this detention facility?

I am not playing naive, you are being obtuse. 

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. Ok now you say that they DO brag... playing semantics is another cynical move by these criminals.

In any case, it's your country... enjoy it.

Yes, they brag about enforcing the law. So what?

I am enjoying every minute of it. 

If you are so concerned about it, why isn't your country taking these people in and welcoming them all with open arms? 

[blackbird]

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

They're not forced. They can self deport at any time

Lying again.  You can't "self deport" once you are arrested and locked up.  ICE /admin decides when and where you will be sent.  In the meantime you many be incarcerated in some inhumane conditions in a vastly over-crowded cell with inadequate facilities and harsh conditions for an unknown period of time.  You may also be deprived of any contact with loved ones or legal counsel.

You may also have immigrated from some hell-hole where if you return, your life may be in danger.  You also may now have a wife and kids and do not know what will happen to them if you "self deport".  Yet the fascists could care less.  But we know you have no empathy for your fellow man.

Edited July 16, 2025 by blackbird

[User]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Lying again.  You can't "self deport" once you are arrested and locked up.  ICE /admin decides when and where you will be sent.  In the meantime you many be incarcerated in some inhumane conditions in a vastly over-crowded cell with inadequate facilities and conditions for an unknown period of time.

The point is they can self-deport BEFORE they are caught breaking the law. 

Once captured, they can choose to not contest things or fight it and simply accept deportation to more quickly leave the facility. 

What inhumane conditions?

What inadequate facilities?

It is a detention facility, not a hotel where you get to go swim and drink by the pool. 

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Lying again. 

Simple truth bud. You're the one who's being dishonest. I thought you were christian? You lie a lot for a christian

Quote

You can't "self deport" once you are arrested and locked up. ICE /admin decides when and where you will be sent.  In the meantime you many be incarcerated in some inhumane conditions in a vastly over-crowded cell with inadequate facilities and conditions for an unknown period of time.

You can self deport. 

From google ai:

Yes, individuals detained by ICE can choose to self-deport,

• Self-Deportation Option:

  Even while detained, individuals can express a desire to self-deport. This means they agree to leave the U.S. voluntarily rather than being formally deported by ICE. 

   
• ICE's Terms:

  Even if someone agrees to self-deport, they will still go through ICE's processes and procedures. This might involve being held in detention while ICE arranges their departure. 

   

  So while ice isn't just going to let them go back and they have to wait ice makes arrangements for them transported, they can in fact end the process fairly quickly on their own.

   

  But of course they can self deport even before arrested if they know they're in the country illegally and avoid the whole thing. Which was my point .

   

  So yes, my statement was accurate. If they don't like it they can actually choose to self deport and while it may take a short time to arrange transport it will be over pretty quick. And more importantly they can self deport before being caught. 

   

  The only time it might take longer is when there are special circumstances and the person is a real problem, but then they really really do deserve to be locked up

   

  And they don't need to be locked up in the first place they can leave before ice gets them. As I correctly said, they don't like it they can self deport and avoid the whole mess. 

   

  And you STILL haven't made any case for why they shouldn't be locked up in the first place. 

   

   

Edited July 16, 2025 by CdnFox

[blackbird]

14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yes, individuals detained by ICE can choose to self-deport,

You are making that assumption based on your misguided belief that ICE and the admin are acting in a legal, honest way, but that has been proven false over and over again. 

The fact they sent over 200 people to CECOT torture-death prison in El Salvador proves clearly they do not respect human rights of international conventions.

The creation of a so-called "Alligator Alcatraz" again proves their motives are questionable.

Therefore they can not be trusted to treat people in a humane way.

Edited July 16, 2025 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are making that assumption based on your misguided belief that ICE and the admin are acting in a legal, honest way, but that has been proven false over and over again. 

No I'm basing it on facts and reality. In fact you were just arguing in another thread which was a story about a woman who self deported

And you've offered no evidence to support your position here other than you're butt hurt so it must be true. 

So, if you're in the country legally you can self deport, or you can get caught by ice. If you're caught by ice you can shorten the process by agreeing to self deport in which case they will make arrangements for you to be taken across the border, or you can continue to lie and wait until they get around to you.

All the way along the choices are with the bad guys. They have the right to deport when they know they should, if they choose not to they have the right to agree to expedited deportation if they get caught, and if they don't then they live with what they get.

It's like blaming the courts for locking a murderer up instead of blaming the murderer

[blackbird]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's like blaming the courts for locking a murderer up instead of blaming the murderer

Again you are twisting the subject to try to paint all undocumented migrants as criminals.  They are not.  Many of them have families and have worked in the jobs for years and some even decades.  They don't deserve to be treated the way they are.

Your painting them as criminals is exactly how Trump and MAGAs speak.

 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Again you are twisting the subject to try to paint all undocumented migrants as criminals.  They are not. 

 

They are. We've gone over this. And even the tiny handful that aren't criminals are still unlawful. Just because a law violation is a civil matter doesn't make them any less of a violator of the law. So whether or not they're criminal they're still illegal, and having to answer a penalty under the law is no different either way.

So yes, the vast majority of them are criminals and all of them Broke a law whether it's a criminal law or not.

Quote

  They don't deserve to be treated the way they are.

Sure they do. And you have offered absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.

I'm afraid Simply Having a stick up your butt is not legal evidence that they don't deserve this. You would have to make an actual argument and so far you haven't. You cry and you ring your hands and you gnash your teeth and you read your garments but you haven't made a single argument or even addressed the points I have raised which tells me you know you're wrong and that they do deserve it.

Edited July 16, 2025 by CdnFox

[Venandi]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not sure the purpose of that but it seems to rally their supporters as well as poking the eyes of people who are openly empathetic of others..

The purpose is to create a deterrent effect and send a message, the red carpet for illegal migrants has been lifted by popular demand, you will be caught and deported. 

As I've said here before there is no joy in this, in fact I'm angry that it was allowed to happen at all, more so when you consider it was allowed to fester to the point of predictable backlash.

There's a "what did you think was going to happen" question in all of this that the people who created the problem fail to answer... not surprising perhaps since they fail to even acknowledge their own culpability in creating the mess.

Instead they demonize people actually enforcing the very laws of the land that they wilfully ignored. 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

There's a big space between celebrating a place where alligators threaten to eat men in cages, and a 4-star hotel.

No one is feeding illegals to alligators.

As Roboduh would say:

Sorry (not) ^this OPINION means NOTHING because you have NO CREDENTIALS to make ^these judgements and NOT CITED ANY CREDENTIALED EXPERTS WHO DO.

Every once in a while the critter gets something right by accident.

So again.... this is valuable from a deterrent perspective, especially with regard to lunatic progressives who attack facilities and assault federal officers. Contrary to popular belief, this likely wasn't the choice of champions in terms of location.... it was simply to prevent problems.

There's a lot about this I don't like BTW but I'd have done the same thing for exactly the same reason. 

Not sure what you see as different between the holding cells based on incumbent administrations over the years. They're of a common (meaning similar) design found across the board even thought they are modular and thus customizable to some extent.

Say ATCO trailers, ISO shelters or BATs to any soldier and they know exactly what you mean even though some of the layouts/utilities can vary. This is pretty much that.

 

Edited July 16, 2025 by Venandi

[Deluge]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Lying again.  You can't "self deport" once you are arrested and locked up. 

Then self-deport BEFORE you get locked up. 

This is all simple to understand if you're not a lying communist.

Go shed your wokeful tears someplace else. America's sick of it. 

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, Venandi said:

1. The purpose is to create a deterrent effect and send a message, the red carpet for illegal migrants has been lifted by popular demand, you will be caught and deported. 

2. As I've said here before there is no joy in this, in fact I'm angry that it was allowed to happen at all, more so when you consider it was allowed to fester to the point of predictable backlash.

3. Not sure what you see as different between the holding cells based on incumbent administrations over the years.  

 

 

1. I don't buy it.  The target audience doesn't watch FOX.  I don't support it either.  Even if it were true the cost to public decorum outweights any supposed benefit IMO.
2. The Anger is part of the effect of the messaging.  It's about making sure any policy discussions in public are dealt with primarily with emotions and not thinking.
3. I already acknowledged the similarity there.

[User]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I don't buy it.  The target audience doesn't watch FOX.  I don't support it either.  Even if it were true the cost to public decorum outweights any supposed benefit IMO.

Fortunately, it doesn't matter if you buy it or not. Facts are still facts. This is not only happening on FOX and unless you are admitting to only watching Fox, here we are talking about this. 

What cost to public decorum? 

It is folks on the left who peddle this phony outrage for their own partisan gain. The facts are that this is just a detention center to hold folks while they are processed for deportation. 

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. The Anger is part of the effect of the messaging.  It's about making sure any policy discussions in public are dealt with primarily with emotions and not thinking.

Is this you admitting you are letting your emotions take over and you are not thinking? 

 

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, User said:

1. Fortunately, it doesn't matter if you buy it or not. Facts are still facts. This is not only happening on FOX and unless you are admitting to only watching Fox, here we are talking about this. 

2. What cost to public decorum? 

3. It is folks on the left who peddle this phony outrage for their own partisan gain. The facts are that this is just a detention center to hold folks while they are processed for deportation. 

4. Is this you admitting you are letting your emotions take over and you are not thinking? 

 

1. If they were facts then I would buy them, but it's an opinion only that the strategy is a) to dissuade immigrants from crossing the border b) not intended for internal consumption and c) effective as such.  We are talking about it, which is actually evidence for my side since we're not illegal immigrants or wannabes, you see.
2. If you are asking this then I can't explain it.  It's obvious to me, and others who have followed politics for 50+ years what has changed.
3. Phony outrage is hard to pin down.  I suspect that it's a pervasive trait of western culture right now - performative emotionality, fake rage etc.
4. No.  It's about posters admitting to let their emotions govern their political choices.

[User]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. If they were facts then I would buy them, but it's an opinion only that the strategy is a) to dissuade immigrants from crossing the border b) not intended for internal consumption and c) effective as such.  We are talking about it, which is actually evidence for my side since we're not illegal immigrants or wannabes, you see.

Circular logic. You have proven your own bias here in other subjects, so relying on your own authority of buying something, making it factual, falls woefully short. 

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. If you are asking this then I can't explain it.  It's obvious to me, and others who have followed politics for 50+ years what has changed.

So, something has changed, but you can't explain it. Brilliant. 

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Phony outrage is hard to pin down.  I suspect that it's a pervasive trait of western culture right now - performative emotionality, fake rage etc.

No, I have pinned it down repeatedly here. 

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. No.  It's about posters admitting to let their emotions govern their political choices.

OK, so you are doing it, just not going to admit to it. 

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, User said:

1.  You have proven your own bias here in other subjects, so relying on your own authority of buying something, making it factual, falls woefully short. 

2. So, something has changed, but you can't explain it. Brilliant. 

3. No, I have pinned it down repeatedly here. 

4. OK, so you are doing it, just not going to admit to it. 

1. Everybody is biased.  I have no authority over you but don't call your opinions facts.  You didn't acknowledge my 3 premises for saying that this is an opinion, just cited my admitted 'bias' in life.  You don't think you're biased, I guess.

Also - as I said, we're not the audience and yet you used the fact that we're talking about it as proof that the message is a deterrent.  You should try addressing my arguments instead of whatever you are doing.

2.  That's right.  There's lot of things I can't explain, such as why chocolate tastes good or USA politics is bad.  

3.  Based on you being the supreme judge of opinions vs facts, right ?  And your opinions are factual whereas others' are not.

4. I admit to having an emtional response, being a human being and all.  I do try to reserve my opinions when I suspect they're not fact-based.

You should do that, it would make discussing with you more interesting than the semantic table-tennis that it is every time.

Have a day....

Edited July 16, 2025 by Michael Hardner

[User]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Everybody is biased. 

Sure, but I am not making a claim that because I buy into something, that makes it a fact. You are. 

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Also - as I said, we're not the audience and yet you used the fact that we're talking about it as proof that the message is a deterrent.  You should try addressing my arguments instead of whatever you are doing.

You tried to absurdly claim the audience was FOX as if they would be the only ones to hear it. Typical leftist drivel. 

Clearly not. 

Are you saying that this message is not making it anywhere other than to Fox news listeners? Because it sure looks like it is all over the news and here we are talking about it. Looks like illegal immigrants will get the message too. 

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2.  That's right.  There's lot of things I can't explain, such as why chocolate tastes good or USA politics is bad.  

Yes, you can, but you are being obtuse as usual. Chocolate tastes good because it tastes sweet and it is pleasurable to eat. You can describe it, you can give reasoning, you just choose not to. It is far easier to make vague generic assertions so you can't be as easily challenged. 

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

3.  Based on you being the supreme judge of opinions vs facts, right ?  And your opinions are factual whereas others' are not.

Observing how people behave here and pointing that out is not an opinion. 

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You should do that, it would make discussing with you more interesting than the semantic table-tennis that it is every time.

Nah, you do what you do, you want to comment on things, make arguments, and then when called out or challenged, play these obfuscation games. 

What is "interesting" to you seems to be only when people agree with you and contribute to that agreement. 

So tell us... what exactly are you even doing in this thread then? You s liked a stupid and ignorant comment from Herbie, then your first post then started making comments about prison conditions and prisoners being eaten by alligators and what not that you convienently stopped responding to when challenged... 
 

 

 

[Deluge]

22 hours ago, Boges said:

Even if that was true. Which I doubt it is. Biden didn't do a defacto ribbon cutting and start selling merch. 

Cruelty is the point. 

Deportation is the point.

"Cruelty" is a bullshit word for allies of illegal aliens. 

[User]

24 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Deportation is the point.

"Cruelty" is a bullshit word for allies of illegal aliens. 

Simple question most of them avoid answering:

Would you support the deportations of illegal immigrants if the facility were nicer?

 

[Boges]

1 hour ago, User said:

Simple question most of them avoid answering:

Would you support the deportations of illegal immigrants if the facility were nicer?

I think the issue at hand is that there's a quota system. 

So you don't have ICE raiding places infested with criminals, you have them harassing people in public, work or going to their immigration hearing trying to stay in the country legally. 

The idea that they'd need a concentration camp built in 2-weeks speaks to the idea that they're indiscriminately detaining people. And the fact that Stephen Miller wants to suspend habeas corpus shows that they aren't particularly concerned if the immigrant is here legally or not. 

[User]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

I think the issue at hand is that there's a quota system. 

So you don't have ICE raiding places infested with criminals, you have them harassing people in public, work or going to their immigration hearing trying to stay in the country legally. 

The idea that they'd need a concentration camp built in 2-weeks speaks to the idea that they're indiscriminately detaining people. And the fact that Stephen Miller wants to suspend habeas corpus shows that they aren't particularly concerned if the immigrant is here legally or not. 

So, like I said, you won't answer the question. 

What does a quota system have to do with anything here? Are you OK with Alligator Alcatraz as long as there are no quotas?

ICE is not "harassing people" they are engaged in enforcing federal immigration laws targeting ILLEGAL immigrants. 

If you go to your immigration hearing and they reject your plea for asylum, then ICE will be there to deport you. 

If you go to your immigration hearing trying to be a citizen when you are already here illegally, then ICE will deport you. You are here illegally. 

They are not "indiscriminately detaining" people. 

 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, User said:

So, like I said, you won't answer the question. 

What does a quota system have to do with anything here? Are you OK with Alligator Alcatraz as long as there are no quotas?

I'm not American so it doesn't really matter how public funding is spent. But yeah spending hundreds of millions making a makeshift prison, regardless of quality, is pretty alarming behaviour for a government that spent its first few months in office trying to cut waste from departments. 

Quote

ICE is not "harassing people" they are engaged in enforcing federal immigration laws targeting ILLEGAL immigrants. 

They're going to places they know immigrants are and asking for papers. That's harassment. Especially when you're masked in tactical military gear. 

Quote

If you go to your immigration hearing and they reject your plea for asylum, then ICE will be there to deport you. 

They're telling people to show up only to deport them. That's cruel. 

Quote

 

If you go to your immigration hearing trying to be a citizen when you are already here illegally, then ICE will deport you. You are here illegally. 

They are not "indiscriminately detaining" people. 

 

There are examples of people here legally that have been detained.