Redeploy Spare Industrial Capacity to Major Infrastructure Program

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm just going to keep lording my dual citizenship over Canadians in the meantime,

lord knows the Canadian Zoomers desperately wish that they had an American parent;

then they wouldn't be stuck competing with South Asians for the jobs at Tim Horton's,

Canada is fine if you are a wealthy land owner like me, but if not, it's a brutal slog

That’s an argument for 51st state.  It has its merits, so we need to consider whether what we’ve built in Canada distinct from America is worth keeping and how much we’re willing to do to keep it.

My best guess is that we want to maintain sovereignty but will have to pay more to keep it, mainly for military, but if we can do it in an economic partnership with the U.S., both countries could seize new economic opportunities and over time some departments and policies could be harmonized between the countries.

That’s as good as it can get in the near to medium term, but only if the will of the peoples of both countries are respected.  Canadians have no appetite for further integration right now and in any event need to strengthen our defence and protect our economy.  The U.S. is trying to seek advantages where it can find them with other countries to deal with its debt burden and to keep tax cut promises that it can’t really afford.  

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s an argument for 51st state,

I'm already there,

best of both worlds,

it's just that my wife is very attached to Canada, and she's willing to pay the premium to live here,

fair enough, we she goes, I go

[Zeitgeist]

30 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I'm already there,

best of both worlds,

it's just that my wife is very attached to Canada, and she's willing to pay the premium to live here,

fair enough, we she goes, I go

There are many advantages to statehood but we won’t get a chance to weigh the merits and the best way to get there as long as the US threats continue.

Edited March 15 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are many advantages to statehood but we won’t get a chance to weigh the merits and the best way to get there as long as the US threats continue.

America is not threatening me,

I'm not particularly attached to the Woke Progressive socialist Post National nanny state,

free speech, gun rights, more money, lower taxes;

I'm not fighting against that, go ahead and liberate me, America, please do

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

increased military production (perhaps including replacing the F-35's, apart from the 16 already purchased, with made-in-Canada options)

We should declare a national security emergency and borrow hundreds of billions to build up our military capacity.

I'd buy Gripen fighters from Sweden...built for the Arctic.

Get Gripen to build an assembly plant here.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'd buy Gripen fighters from Sweden...built for the Arctic.

not built for the Canadian Arctic ; single engine,

plus that engine is American requiring American logistics  ; GE F414

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

not built for the Canadian Arctic ; single engine,

plus that engine is American requiring American logistics  ; GE F414

I'll take your word for it. In any case I say arm baby arm.

[Dougie93]

26 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'll take your word for it. In any case I say arm baby arm.

if you have a flameout over the Canadian Arctic, you want two engines

this is why the F-35 is actually wrong for the Arctic,

Canada is only buying F-35 to bomb other countries alongside America, NORAD is not really what its for,

if you are just flying defensive missions over the Canadian Arctic,

Eurofighter Typhoon is the best available non American option

it's all made in Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain, the plane, the engines, the avionics, everything

 Americans have no control over it, it's all European, the IP is owned by Airbus

it's the best Western air to air fighter other than the F-22,

it can launch air to surface weapons as well,

it's got better range & payload than a Gripen

and it has twin engine redundancy for operating deep into remote areas

Edited March 16 by Dougie93

[herbie]

What the Mango M9ron doesn't understand is that if another country can do something more efficiently than you, so long as they're allied it makes the best business sense to trade freely. You don't farm our all your chip making to China and Russia, they're not allies.
Or that a traded deficit is not a "loss", you try to sell them more of that they aren't best at securing. You don't risk a trillion dollars in trade volume because of a deficit.
And you can't gather new sources, build factories, hire and train new workers ad get your product to market in one four year election term FFS!

He's also snivelling that the GST is unfair because Cdn consumers pay the 5% tax and products exported don't. All the while implementing tariffs where US consumers pay 25% more and goods exported don't. Doesn't even make sense.

 

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, herbie said:

All the while implementing tariffs where US consumers pay 25% more and goods exported don't. Doesn't even make sense.

He really does seem to think when a truckful of Canadian stuff comes across the border that some US External Revenue Service sends Ottawa a bill.

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup and it’s a good opportunity to boost our productivity. Not all of it has to be on the taxpayers either.  We could do some toll infrastructure, especially where there’s already untolled parallel routes.  The reality is that the government will do a major payout to impacted businesses and laid off workers, so why not build something instead? Save the businesses and jobs through a public works program.

This has echoes of how Harper handled the great recession. He didn't just want to put people back to work because that creates a false economy and deepens and lengthens a recession as we learned under Bob Ray in Ontario back in the day. So he focused on shovel ready projects that we're already identified as being necessary and which would improve each region's ability to do business and recover after the economic tough times were over.

While this is certainly not shovel ready the principle is very similar. This isn't just a public works, this would be a public works that would very distinctly set us up for huge success in the future brightened by making energy more affordable available and safe from foreign interference as well as creating customers around the world. And the sale of those products to other customers would produce revenues that could help recover the costs in a relatively short time

Honestly I think it's exactly what we should do. I think it's relatively obvious and I think both parties are kind of talking in that direction. It's worth noting however that this was originally Andrew scheer's big idea and what he tried to run on and the conservatives have mentioned it ever since but now the liberals are trying to take it as if it was their idea

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I also think we need to look more seriously at domestic manufacturing and international partnerships.  To do all of this with the most efficiency and value-add, we need the best infrastructure.

Absolutely true.

[herbie]

51 minutes ago, eyeball said:

He really does seem to think when a truckful of Canadian stuff comes across the border that some US External Revenue Service sends Ottawa a bill.

wants people to believe just that

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

wants people to believe just that

He sure has his press secretary convinced.

[herbie]

She seems to be the supidest Press Secretary in US history.
Too be expected when Bronze Bozo appointed people on loyalty above qualifications.
Sort of a perverse MAGA version of DEI....

[CdnFox]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

59 minutes ago, eyeball said:

  1 hour ago, herbie said:

All the while implementing tariffs where US consumers pay 25% more and goods exported don't. Doesn't even make sense.

58 minutes ago, eyeball said:

He really does seem to think when a truckful of Canadian stuff comes across the border that some US External Revenue Service sends Ottawa a bill.

 

It makes perfect sense if you understand his goals which I've tried to explain to you.

His goal is to give a competitive advantage to those people who are only doing business in the united states when it comes to things that are consumed in the united states.

If the ford motor company knows that if they build a car in canada it's an extra 10 grand to sell in the states so they'll sell fewer cars,  but if they build a car in Detroit they don't pay that and the consumer will buy more cars, the idea is that they will pick up their stuff from Canada and move to Detroit bringing all of those jobs with them.

And that makes perfect sense if you follow that logic. For a short time your people pay more but in the long term there is more American jobs and people will pay less again for products because they'll be made in a tariff free America instead of somewhere else And there will be all that tax money to pay for services.

The problem is that this simply isn't how it's going to work. Trump thinks it will but it won't. But if you believe that it would work then it makes absolute sense.

[eyeball]

25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And that makes perfect sense if you follow that logic.

It's donkey logic like yours. Meanwhile the market is screaming WTF?

Contemplating a move to the US with Trumpzilla in charge is probably the last thing any sane investor is considering. You'd have to be nuts.

[CdnFox]

30 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's donkey logic like yours. Meanwhile the market is screaming WTF?

 

All logic is donkey logic to you. Logic isn't exactly your strong suit. The logic of the argument is fine, the problem is it's missing pieces to complete it. It's possible he has some sort of plan that he thinks will achieve that but that doesn't make what he's thinking illogical, at best it would just mean it was wrong

Quote

Contemplating a move to the US with Trumpzilla in charge is probably the last thing any sane investor is considering. You'd have to be nuts.

Well so far the feedback is a little different, but essentially the end result is the same. Investors don't make multi-billion dollar or trillion dollar decisions based on something that's probably going to end in 4 years especially when it would take more than 4 years to actually do anything. He has grossly overestimated how quickly is possible to do things like move an entire Automotive manufacturing facility the process alone may take 4 years, it's way too much to do just because they're afraid of one guy who's going to be gone before they're even done with the move and at the same time risk losing their market share in Canada in retribution, which is genuinely something to be afraid of. 

Basically what they're saying is "Why would this chicken outfit to cross the road."

And most of the other types of businesses trump wants to get are saying similar things. Some smaller groups might consider moving but most are where they are for very good reasons and it's not worth uprooting for a 4 year or less issue.  They'll just work to pressure trump or remove him. 

So the reality is they don't care that much about trump. Trump is a temporary thing. But that also means that people will not be jumping to the pump to move their manufacturing back and he's absolutely not going to get the result he wants in that respect

. Worse, thanks to the economic uncertainty he's creating investors at home are going to be very reluctant to expand their own businesses here because of instabilities in the financial markets which make it extremely difficult not to mention lower stock share which makes raising cash almost impossible

 

 

[Army Guy]

44 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's donkey logic like yours. Meanwhile the market is screaming WTF?

Contemplating a move to the US with Trumpzilla in charge is probably the last thing any sane investor is considering. You'd have to be nuts.

And yet many major companies are going to move to the US and set up shop, some dealing are worth 500 billion or more...i think he is up to 3 trillion in new investments...so some companies are listening.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It makes perfect sense if you understand his goals which I've tried to explain to you.

His goal is to give a competitive advantage to those people who are only doing business in the united states when it comes to things that are consumed in the united states.

If the ford motor company knows that if they build a car in canada it's an extra 10 grand to sell in the states so they'll sell fewer cars,  but if they build a car in Detroit they don't pay that and the consumer will buy more cars, the idea is that they will pick up their stuff from Canada and move to Detroit bringing all of those jobs with them.

And that makes perfect sense if you follow that logic. For a short time your people pay more but in the long term there is more American jobs and people will pay less again for products because they'll be made in a tariff free America instead of somewhere else And there will be all that tax money to pay for services.

The problem is that this simply isn't how it's going to work. Trump thinks it will but it won't. But if you believe that it would work then it makes absolute sense.

Yup because all other countries follow suit with counter tariffs, meaning that only domestic made cars or cars from non-tariffed countries are affordable.  So we literally stop buying American stuff and so does everyone else. Also, our cheap abundant resources become unaffordable to Americans.  It also reduces Americans’ purchasing options and competition, raises prices, and lowering global exports.  Dumb overall.  

Edited March 16 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And yet many major companies are going to move to the US and set up shop, some dealing are worth 500 billion or more...i think he is up to 3 trillion in new investments...so some companies are listening.

I'm not sure where you're seeing that 3 trillion number in new investment but there isn't 3 trillion dollars in new investment since trump took over at all. In fact i haven't seen any - trump has held up a number of companies as examples but ALL of their investment has been in the works for well over a year and they all already have their operations in the USA so the tarrifs didn't affect that in the slightest. 

Apple's building a server farm for example, but they were always going to build it in the us. Some of the pharma companies have made announcements recently but they've been working on those for years and they ALWAYS do their manufacturing and development in the us. They've been planning this for years, they just announced some of the details lately but that's got nothing to do with tariffs or trump. 

I can't find any examples of the tariffs convincing a company that was going to invest somewhere else to invest in the US, if you have any please share by all means. Or one that's begun the process of shutting down somewhere else as a result of the teriffs.  But i suspect that in fact very very few companies are listening. 

Meanwhile tho at the moment he's destroyed 4 trillion dollars in wealth for corporations:

US stock market loses $4 trillion in value as Trump plows ahead on tariffs | Reuters

and that's money that won't be invested in the economy. 

Maybe it'll recover but unless things change very soon i doubt it. IF this keeps up after a few more months i suspect we'll be into a recession or close enough and that's going to last a while at that point. 

Edited March 16 by CdnFox

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup because all other countries follow suit with counter tariffs, meaning that only domestic made cars or cars from non-tariffed countries are affordable.  So we literally stop buying American stuff and so does everyone else. Also, our cheap abundant resources become unaffordable to Americans.  It also reduces Americans’ purchasing options and competition, raises prices, and lowering global exports.  Dumb overall.  

Exactly. Why wouldn't we do a deal with the chinese to import cars, perhaps with parts manufacturing taking place here to help with jobs. Or slap a tariff on us cars and encourage the japanese to build more here, etc. 

Trump expects to move all those canadian jobs back to the us but forgets those jobs are supported entirely by canadian customers who will likely go somewhere else in protest (as tesla is finding out).  So there may not be any jobs left after. 

Not to mention forget having the Canadian gov't help bail out the auto industry next time it gets in trouble. 

THe automakers know this, they've already said they've got no plans at all to even consider this. 

There's just no second phase here -  these companies might think to themselves 'yes it would be better if all of our stuff were magically at home right now', but it's not worth the cost and disruption to move. And we haven't even touched on manpower and training. 

[Barquentine]

And American consumer trucks are pricing out of the market, so either foreign vehicles will find their way in to the North American market or automakers will have to retool.

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup because all other countries follow suit with counter tariffs, meaning that only domestic made cars or cars from non-tariffed countries are affordable.  So we literally stop buying American stuff and so does everyone else.

except America doesn't actually rely on exports,

all American exports combined only amount to 10% of American GDP,

most of what is made in America is made for American consumption

Buy Canadian vs Buy American ; Canada is going to lose that war very badly

it's the same for China & Europe,

America buys up everyone else's excess production, that's not a two way street

hence why Europe is not rushing to Canada's defence here,

Europe, particularly Germany, is in very rough shape right now, they can't afford a war with America

the whole Canadian plan of "hey everybody, let's gang up on America !"

is just blowing sunshine up your own asses,  since it's not in anyone else's interests to do so,

if you are going to make realistic plans,

that starts with realistic assessments of just how dire the situation actually is,

point one ; you are on your own here, nobody is coming to save you

point two ; Canada is not going radically transform itself into a dynamo in any relevant time frame

your advantages are that you can still spend a lot of money to bail Canada out

even if you combine federal & provincial debt, Canada is still only at 80% debt to GDP ratio,

which means you in fact have considerable room to print more money and get away with it,

can't do that forever, but could be done to outlast Trump's political capital

and you can restrict the flow of resources ; energy in particular, to get your shots in

in order to wait Trump out in essence,

if you are confident that Trump is a fool and that his plan is nonsensical ;

then have the courage of those convictions and just wait for it to backfire on him,

if Trump's plan doesn't start showing big results for the American economy in short order,

then the GOP is going to get wiped out at the mid-terms,

so you only have to hold out for 20 months,

that's the Democrat plan ; they are just feeding Trump rope at this point,

because they think its going to blow up in his face and they want it to be all his fault

Edited March 16 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

except America doesn't actually rely on exports,

all American exports combined only amount to 10% of American GDP,

most of what is made in America is made for American consumption

Buy Canadian vs Buy American ; Canada is going to lose that war very badly

it's the same for China & Europe,

America buys up everyone else's excess production, that's not a two way street

hence why Europe is not rushing to Canada's defence here,

Europe, particularly Germany, is in very rough shape right now, they can't afford a war with America

the whole Canadian plan of "hey everybody, let's gang up on America !"

is just blowing sunshine up your own asses,  since it's not in anyone else's interests to do so,

if you are going to make realistic plans,

that starts with realistic assessments of just how dire the situation actually is,

point one ; you are on your own here, nobody is coming to save you

point two ; Canada is not going radically transform itself into a dynamo in any relevant time frame

your advantages are that you can still spend a lot of money to bail Canada out

even if you combine federal & provincial debt, Canada is still only at 80% debt to GDP ratio,

which means you in fact have considerable room to print more money and get away with it,

can't do that forever, but could be done to outlast Trump's political capital

and you can restrict the flow of resources ; energy in particular, to get your shots in

in order to wait Trump out in essence,

if you are confident that Trump is a fool and that his plan is nonsensical ;

then have the courage of those convictions and just wait for it to backfire on him,

if Trump's plan doesn't start showing big results for the American economy in short order,

then the GOP is going to get wiped out at the mid-terms,

so you only have to hold out for 20 months,

that's the Democrat plan ; they are just feeding Trump rope at this point,

because they think its going to blow up in his face and they want it to be all his fault

I don’t have delusions of grandeur for what Canada can do, but we can do quite a bit to pick up some of the production slack left by a drop in U.S. demand.  There’s a significant call in Britain to strengthen ties between Canada, UK, Australia, and Nee Zealand.  Don’t forget that the UK is still smarting from Brexit and they’re frustrated with the U.S. on Ukraine.  Now they get to experience the tariffs as well.

Carney’s first trip as PM is to Germany, which is the most powerful country in the EU and a significant trading partner.  It’s also trying to cut all exposure to Russian energy.  Canada has made a uranium deal with Poland, which has become a hard power bulwark in support of Ukraine.  The EU is also retooling to become more militarily and economically independent from the US.

Canada is actively finding replacement markets and suppliers in other continents.  None of these countries asked to be in this position.  Gaslighting Canada for a trade war the U.S. started will be seen for what it is.  We may be more impacted by US protectionism than the Americans are, but we can turn to other countries that are in the same boat and maintain relatively free trade.  We can also use our better financial position to spend on infrastructure to make our domestic economy more self-sufficient while opening channels to new markets for our resources and products.

All of this will take time and money.  We didn’t choose this course.  The achievement will be actually being able to pivot, and if we do it well, Canada will be a great international trader that’s able to take advantage of its resources and energy to run a cutting edge economy that creates a lot of wealth for itself and other countries. There’s a lot of upward potential, but some of this transition is a costly alternative to the current economic trade flow with the U.S.

I think in the long run the U.S. may wish it hadn’t been so dismissive of Canada’s resources and partnership, because we’re a reliable and cost effective trade partner, their biggest export market and biggest foreign supplier of energy, which they get at a discount.  America offers us their population as consumers, but our population has been growing rapidly.

Again, we should be enhancing the economic partnership with the U.S., but they’re abrogating the agreement, threatening our sovereignty, and pushing us towards other countries.

Edited March 16 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Worse, thanks to the economic uncertainty he's creating investors at home are going to be very reluctant to expand their own businesses here

So investors would be nuts to invest while Trump's in charge just like I said.

But you needed to add another 500 more hee haws to the mix.

LMAO!