Cancellation of the F-35 contract is now a necessity: when and how, not if

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

They could cause headaches since alot of European planes have American hardware, and may not be allowed to sell to us.

the entire Canadian military is reliant upon the Pentagon for its logistics,

not simply because most Canadian military hardware is American,

but Canada also does not maintain any sort of stockpile of military stores, weapons,  nor ammunition,

instead Canada relies on America to supply Canada's forces in the event of war

thus fighter planes are the least of Canada's problems if Canada gets cut off by Washington,

Canada long ago decided to render itself functionally defenceless in the face of foreign powers,

it's too late to turn that ship around now

[xul]

It seems like Trump has just announced the death sentence of F-35

 

[Aristides]

The F-47 is an air superiority fighter to replace the F-22, not a substitute for the F-35.

Trump has joined the dark side and Putin seems to be his best buddy. If I was a European F-35 operator I would be concerned about the US degrading their F-35's capability if Russia attacked one of the East European NATO countries. 

[Aristides]

On 3/20/2025 at 11:19 AM, Dougie93 said:

the entire Canadian military is reliant upon the Pentagon for its logistics,

not simply because most Canadian military hardware is American,

but Canada also does not maintain any sort of stockpile of military stores, weapons,  nor ammunition,

instead Canada relies on America to supply Canada's forces in the event of war

thus fighter planes are the least of Canada's problems if Canada gets cut off by Washington,

Canada long ago decided to render itself functionally defenceless in the face of foreign powers,

it's too late to turn that ship around now

The Gripen E has a Mauser gun and is equipped to use both US and European air to air, cruise and anti ship missiles. Using equipment not relying on the US for ammunition or spares could now be regarded as a plus

Edited March 22 by Aristides

[CdnFox]

"we like to take away about 10 percent of performance because, maybe they're not always our allies"

That right there. 

[Dougie93]

On 3/20/2025 at 12:44 PM, PIK said:

They could cause headaches since alot of European planes have American hardware, and may not be allowed to sell to us.

that applies to everything, not just fighter planes,

what doesn't have American components in it somewhere ?

[Iceni warrior]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

that applies to everything, not just fighter planes,

what doesn't have American components in it somewhere ?

Melania Trump?

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, Aristides said:

Using equipment not relying on the US for ammunition or spares could now be regarded as a plus

I don't think the Europeans are as gung-ho to decouple from America as Canadians are,

I expect the Europeans will take a more conciliatory approach,  as they already are,

Canadians are shocked to discover that America is not 100% reliable,

but nobody in Europe ever trusted the Americans in the first place,

the Europeans have always hedged their bets that Article V ain't actually all that reliable, even in the Cold War

 

[PIK]

Carney is just using this for votes. We are stuck buying the f35. But it is the best option.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

Carney is just using this for votes. We are stuck buying the f35. But it is the best option.

well having a mixed fleet is actually optimal,

the F-35 isn't good at everything, it's highly specialized, and in many cases it is overkill for the mission,

so stealth & non stealth fighters compliment each other, each performing their roles within a team,

I simply doubt that Canadian governments are willing to pay the premium to play in those big leagues

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

well having a mixed fleet is actually optimal,

the F-35 isn't good at everything, it's highly specialized, and in many cases it is overkill for the mission,

so stealth & non stealth fighters compliment each other, each performing their roles within a team,

I simply doubt that Canadian governments are willing to pay the premium to play in those big leagues

We used to. F-86 and Cf-100 in the fifties and sixties. F-104 and F-101 from the sixties to eighties. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

We used to. F-86 and Cf-100 in the fifties and sixties. F-104 and F-101 from the sixties to eighties. 

that was a very long time ago, when Canada was spending as much as 7% GDP on defence,

Canada essentially gave up on having a full spectrum military literally decades ago,

Canada's only military strategy since the end of the Cold War,

was to provide token forces alongside American forces,

the whole point of having fighters is NORAD

the whole point of having frigates is to join American Carrier Strike Groups,

the whole point of having an army is to provide a Battle Group to join American forces on expeditions,

Canada does not in fact have a Plan B,

and again, I doubt very much that Canadians are actually wiling to do the work and spend the money to have one

[Aristides]

We'll  see. All of a sudden we are in a different world.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

We'll  see. All of a sudden we are in a different world.

Canadians are still all talk and no action until Canada takes some action,

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canadians are still all talk and no action until Canada takes some action,

Canadians are in a mood to decouple from the US as much as possible. Who knows what they will go for.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Aristides said:

Canadians are in a mood to decouple from the US as much as possible. Who knows what they will go for.

I seriously doubt that Canada will cancel its American military contracts,

I seriously doubt that Canada will purchase Gripen

so far, in typical Canadian fashion, the government has simply announced a "review"

[Aristides]

This is nothing like anything in my lifetime so I’m not sure what to expect.

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, Aristides said:

This is nothing like anything in my lifetime so I’m not sure what to expect.

it's more a question of calculating Canada's state capacity, or rather lack thereof,

Canada is already in the throes of the world's worst military procurement crisis,

with Canada relying on America to replace practically everything all at the same time,

if Canada rips those plans up and starts over,

that's not going to result in Canada's broken procurement system ;

suddenly acquiring large amounts of European military hardware,

rather Canada will simply end up purchasing nothing at all, further exacerbating the existing crisis,

leading to Canada having to come back to America eventually with cap in hand

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, Aristides said:

We used to. F-86 and Cf-100 in the fifties and sixties. F-104 and F-101 from the sixties to eighties. 

Yes, when budgets were bigger, and we actually had equipment for all our defensive agreements...that is not the case today....Having two types will put additional pressure on tight budgets...

[xul]

23 hours ago, Aristides said:

The F-47 is an air superiority fighter to replace the F-22, not a substitute for the F-35.

 

The concept of air superiority fighter was raised during the Vietnam War, when due to the limitations of radar and air-to-air missile technologies, the air combat usually took form of dogfight.

The concept has gradually faded away since late 1990s, duo to the high R/D and purchasing costs of 5G fighters. The improvement of air-to-air missile technology also makes BVR become the major form of air combats, and fighter jets are no longer required to point its nose at target for firing a missile in dogfight, so agility of fighter jets is no longer considered as major factor to win air combats to establish air superiority.

Nowadays, almost all fighter jets, include all 5G and later variants of 4g fighters are multirole. F-35 is also a multirole fighter jet which can be used for air superiority mission. This is why USAF throws in billions dollars to upgrade complex network software and hardware for it, which obviously are unnecessary If it was mainly used for strike mission.

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, Aristides said:

This is nothing like anything in my lifetime so I’m not sure what to expect.

Avro aero....

Happens all the time , look at the EH-101 sea king replacement program, it was canceled , restarted then we purchased SAR EH-101, then purchased some Frankenstein helo off the Americans... 

Look at the F-35 program, canceled , then we had the boeing spat and canceled the F18 E/F, then back to the F-35 it has cost us billions in delays, and put those programs back another 10 years....first F-35 will not be flying until 2030....

All because one party did not want to choose the same equipment because it was not visual pleasing politically.... 

[Army Guy]

3 minutes ago, xul said:

The concept of air superiority fighter was raised during the Vietnam War, when due to the limitations of radar and air-to-air missile technologies, the air combat usually took form of dogfight.

The concept has gradually faded away since late 1990s, duo to the high R/D and purchasing costs of 5G fighters. The improvement of air-to-air missile technology also makes BVR become the major form of air combats, and fighter jets are no longer required to point its nose at target for firing a missile in dogfight, so agility of fighter jets is no longer considered as major factor to win air combats to establish air superiority.

Nowadays, almost all fighter jets, include all 5G and later variants of 4g fighters are multirole. F-35 is also a multirole fighter jet which can be used for air superiority mission. This is why USAF throws in billions dollars to upgrade complex network software and hardware for it, which obviously are unnecessary If it was mainly used for strike mission.

It does matter alot when fighters come into close contact then it puts F-35 at a disadvantage, BVR weapons are not very effective at close range hence short range missiles.... BVR is great when you can positively identify enemy aircraft at distance and they are at war, but when pushing off Russia / Chinese aircraft out of your airspace...you need to do that wing tip to wing tip sort of speak...That's when the F-22, F-15, F-16, F-18 etc in the air dominance role....... have the advantage over F-35...  Think off the F-35 as the quarterback it can spot enemy aircraft at distance even control and direct other aircraft missile launches to target...The new F-15 EX is a missle truck Americans are planning to use it with F-35 for that very reason...But its speciality is strike missions...but is also very deadly at air to air, except in a knife fight....

[Iceni warrior]

 

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Avro aero....

Happens all the time , look at the EH-101 sea king replacement program, it was canceled , restarted then we purchased SAR EH-101, then purchased some Frankenstein helo off the Americans... 

Look at the F-35 program, canceled , then we had the boeing spat and canceled the F18 E/F, then back to the F-35 it has cost us billions in delays, and put those programs back another 10 years....first F-35 will not be flying until 2030....

All because one party did not want to choose the same equipment because it was not visual pleasing politically.... 

Agreed.I've always maintained the F-35 was the best choice. Unfortunately we can no longer trust the country selling it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Mango Mussolini hadn't gone to the dark side. I don't see how buying off the shelf should put us back ten years.

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, Aristides said:

Agreed.I've always maintained the F-35 was the best choice. Unfortunately we can no longer trust the country selling it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Mango Mussolini hadn't gone to the dark side. I don't see how buying off the shelf should put us back ten years.

it's naive to think that Washington would allow Canada to cancel its American contracts to switch to European,

there are many levers which Washington can pull both in Canada & Europe to prevent that,