suds Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, Hodad said: Dictator Putin invaded a democratic Ukraine and the democratic countries of the world offered aid to a people fighting to retain their freedom. You can spin it that way I guess. In reality these 'democratic countries' opted into a proxy war with Russia and no endgame in sight. At the very least, Trump's plan offers some type of endgame although the details are still rather sketchy. Both sides are likely going to have to give things up, and a means to finance the rebuild of Ukraine. I cant speak for Ukrainians but at this point I fail to see any better alternatives. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, herbie said: Before the actual Free World uses your own concept ot "Regime Change" on you. Keep up the foot dragging about this Orange Lunatic who thinks he's the Emperor, or it may become a reality, by any means necessary. ha ha ha ha ha ! you and what army ? you fat blue haired trannies couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag it's actually the populist right imposing the regime change upon you go woke, go broke ; you were warned 1 Quote
Deluge Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 41 minutes ago, eyeball said: Especially after dragging his witch-hunt grievance into it - lots of orange meat got fed to MAGA today. Trump isn't trying to assassinate people or imprison people who secretly wish they could kill him. There's a distinct difference between this side and that side. Edited February 28 by Deluge Quote
CdnFox Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 47 minutes ago, suds said: I agree. This was a meeting that should have best been held behind closed doors and not televised because it puts Zelenski in an extremely awkward situation. Some may argue that sometimes the truth hurts but why publicly rip the guy to shreds? I'm not saying that Trump or J.D. are wrong in their assertions only I don't like the way they did it. Yeah. That was really horrible. That was a shameful moment for the US. Just now, Deluge said: Trump isn't trying to assassinate people or weaponize the legal system against people who secretly wish they could kill him. There's a distinct difference between this side and that side. Less so now. This was really not a good thing at all. Quote There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, suds said: You can spin it that way I guess. In reality these 'democratic countries' opted into a proxy war with Russia and no endgame in sight. At the very least, Trump's plan offers some type of endgame although the details are still rather sketchy. Both sides are likely going to have to give things up, and a means to finance the rebuild of Ukraine. I cant speak for Ukrainians but at this point I fail to see any better alternatives. Only Nixon Can Go To China 2.0 South Vietnam gets thrown under the bus 2.0 Quote
Nationalist Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Radiorum said: To publicly bully and humiliate a man fighting for the life of his country is despicable in the extreme (especially when you are supposed to be on the side of democracy). This show will only play well with the most die-hard of Trump’s cult members. History is watching, and will lump Trump and Vance in with the bad guys. LOL...Gawd you're a limp little freak. 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 12 minutes ago, eyeball said: Trump's administration appears to be making this about a resource grab too using who knows what rational. I note Bush also fell for Putin's charms. I doubt people around the world care anywhere near as much as Americans do about the way internal politics are driving it in the direction it's going though. They should probably pay closer attention. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Americas right and left wings are effectively waging a civil war between themselves, it's been spilling out onto the global stage for some time and now Trump and Vance have made it clear it will also be waged with proxies like...Russia. And...North Korea? Seriously? It's beyond bizarre. It should be bizarre. We used to have values, like actual ideological values to which the parties aligned. Now the republicans are realigned not by value, but by style of government. They've simply come to believe that autocrats and oligarchs are the best way to get what they want and that pesky democracy can be dispensed with. 1 1 Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Deluge said: Trump isn't trying to assassinate people or weaponize the legal system against people who secretly wish they could kill him. Not yet at least. At the moment he's content to abandon America's principles, it's good name and Ukraine to get back at your enemies. He's bearing this cross for you. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Deluge Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 Just now, eyeball said: Not yet at least. Which means not at all. Stop looking for conflict where there isn't any. It makes you look like a f*cking Karen. Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Hodad said: It should be bizarre. We used to have values, like actual ideological values to which the parties aligned. the parties aligned on the Domino Theory being wrong, so bury the hatchet with China, Detente with Moscow, while abandoning South Vietnam apparently the Democrats have reverted back to the Red Scare 1950s since then Edited February 28 by Dougie93 Quote
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 29 minutes ago, suds said: You can spin it that way I guess. In reality these 'democratic countries' opted into a proxy war with Russia and no endgame in sight. At the very least, Trump's plan offers some type of endgame although the details are still rather sketchy. Both sides are likely going to have to give things up, and a means to finance the rebuild of Ukraine. I cant speak for Ukrainians but at this point I fail to see any better alternatives. There's no spin. What I described is exactly what happened. A democratic country asked the international community for aid as they fell under the attack of a acquisitive dictator. And the democratic world responded. Nobody asked Ukraine to fight a war. They could have --and can still -- quit any time they've decided it's not worth it. But a people who have living memory of what it's like to live under an oppressive regime don't take freedom for granted in the way that's now very trendy in conservative circles. The Republicans haven't suddenly become pacifists holding every life dear. They simply aren't invested in democracy anymore. Edited February 28 by Hodad 1 1 Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, Hodad said: It should be bizarre. We used to have values, like actual ideological values to which the parties aligned. Now the republicans are realigned not by value, but by style of government. They've simply come to believe that autocrats and oligarchs are the best way to get what they want and that pesky democracy can be dispensed with. These aren't real Republicans in office. The real ones are in shock...writing articles for the Atlantic and probably wondering how the hell they lost control of their party so easily. 2 1 Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 4 minutes ago, Deluge said: Which means not at all. Stop looking for conflict where there isn't any. It makes you look like a f*cking Karen. Oh, so you don't actually bear any real animosity towards the left - you're just negotiating a deal or something? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hodad said: There's no spin. What I described is exactly what happened. A democratic country asked the international community for aid as they fell under the attack of a acquisitive dictator. And the democratic world responded. the regime in Ukraine was not founded by democracy there was a CIA backed violent revolutionary overthrow of the elected government in Kiev the Maidan Revolution of February 2014 Edited February 28 by Dougie93 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 8 minutes ago, eyeball said: how the hell they lost control of their party so easily. Iraq, Afghanistan, 2008 GFC Quote
Deluge Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, eyeball said: Oh, so you don't actually bear any real animosity towards the left - you're just negotiating a deal or something? Oh, there's animosity. When a group of a$$holes weaponize the legal system and try to disrupt a presidential campaign, there's definite animosity. lol The left is bad; the right is not. Let that settle in your brain for a while. Quote
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Matthew said: How utterly embarrassing for the US. NOTHING has befouled "our cherished Oval Office" like the presence of the man who currently occupies it. Zelensky could have spat on the floor and still lost that race. The embarrassment is only beginning. 1 1 Quote
gatomontes99 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 53 minutes ago, eyeball said: I suspect phones are ringing off the hook around NATO too. I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwan is asking if it can become a member. Do we have anything to gain by keeping Taiwan free? Quote The Rules for Liberal tactics: If they can't refute the content, attack the source. If they can't refute the content, attack the poster. If 1 and 2 fail, pretend it never happened. Everyone you disagree with is Hitler. A word is defined by the emotion it elicits and not the actual definition. If they are wrong, blame the opponent. If a liberal policy didn't work, it's a conservatives fault and vice versa. If all else fails, just be angry.
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: the regime in Ukraine was not founded by democracy there was a CIA backed violent revolutionary overthrow of the elected government in Kiev the Maidan Revolution of February 2014 That is some top-notch Russian propaganda you've got there. Very fresh. 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Hodad said: That is some top-notch Russian propaganda you've got there. Very fresh. I remember watching it in real time I remember saying on another forum at the time, that it was going to incite a war with the Russians bear in mind that I am not opposed to fighting the war against the Russians but to say that the overthrow of the favoured Russian government in Kiev in 2014 was democratic that's just bullshit on the face of it, it was a revolution imposed by force, backed by the CIA not everything the Kremlin says is a lie, otherwise their propaganda would be ineffective it is in fact the Democrats who have lost the propaganda war, because they feel the need to lie Edited February 28 by Dougie93 Quote
eyeball Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, Deluge said: Oh, there's animosity. When a group of a$$holes weaponize the legal system and try to disrupt a presidential campaign, there's definite animosity. lol Then why doesn't Trump take out that animosity against the a$$holes directly? How does throwing gasoline on a wildfire burning in Europe help you as an American? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Dougie93 Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, eyeball said: Then why doesn't Trump take out that animosity against the a$$holes directly? How does throwing gasoline on a wildfire burning in Europe help you as an American? all the Woke Progressive sacred cows will be slaughtered payback is a b!tch Quote
Hodad Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I remember watching it in real time I remember saying on another forum at the time, that it was going to incite a war with the Russians bear in mind that I am not opposed to fighting the war against the Russians but to say that the overthrow of the favoured Russian government in Kiev in 2014 was democratic that's just bullshit on the face of it, it was a revolution imposed by force, backed by the CIA Suuuuuuure it was. All those murdered protestors are just "crisis actors" too? Ukrainians wanted to be free. They rejected Putin's proxy. So other democratic people cheer for such change? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean they caused it. 1 1 Quote
robosmith Posted February 28 Report Posted February 28 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: at the end of the day, the MAGA base does not want to fight Russia for Ukraine and views Zelesnky as a bad actor essentially, Ukraine became the cause celebre of the international Woke Progressive left now Ukraine is simply caught in the inevitable Go Woke Go Broke effect therein You don't know what you're talking about. No one is asking the MAGAT base to fight Russia. Ukraine had BIPARTISAN support until Trump came along. NYT is right that Trump is siding with Russia. It's been obvious for YEARS. 2 hours ago, Scott75 said: Exactly. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, USSR leader Khrushchev decided to make a deal with JFK: Russia would remove its nukes from Cuba and in return, the U.S. would remove its nukes from Turkey. A wise move on both leaders part to avoid further escalation: Business Insider published an article in 2018 that posited that there were 9 times that the world was on the brink of nuclear war- 4 of those times were during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It looks like the Ukraine crisis has had at least one such incident and I suspect Trump would like to ensure that there aren't any more. I believe most sane people would want to avoid the U.S. having a nuclear war with Russia. They even made an acronym for it- MAD, short for Mutually Assured Destruction. Cuba 1960 bears ZERO relationship to Ukraine now. Quote
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