Lowering the flag for slain soldiers?

[scribblet]

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

(in the Comments Section)

Comment from Kandahar:

I've been watching this debate on a number of different blogs and it is

guys like jdave who piss me off royally. How about this jdave. If you happen

to be so unlucky as to have someone from your family killed in an accident,

why don't you run to the nearest media outlet and let them stick a mike in

your face. Nothing like seeing the crying faces of the dead soldiers kids on

TV, or a grieving wife.

I am in the military, blogging from Kandahar. My comment to you is f---off.

The last thing that I'd want is my wife and kids seen across the country if

I am unfortunate enough to run into harm's way. This is not a media event,

but a very private time for the friends and family of those who have died

while serving their country.

Each of us has voluntarily signed on the line, even to put ourselves in

harm's way. But I sure in the hell didn't sign up to give the Liberals or

anti-Bushites some type of propaganda item as the result of my death. And

trust me every soldier that I've spoken to over here feels exactly the same.

You type of people make me sick.

Ed the Hun

[shoop]

Wow. Great post.

So much for Harper alienating members of the military.

[BubberMiley]

You have to remember that dead Canadian soldiers are still somewhat of a novelty. These four dead guys didn't get nearly the attention the first ones bombed by the Americans did. Soon enough such deaths will be met with total complacency, and I guess the CPCers will be happy.

[betsy]

Journalists and TV crews are imbedded in Afghanistan among our soldiers. They are recording as bodies are taken into trucks and during ceremonies as they are loaded into planes. Actually, one journalist commented that this has been the most "open" war that we've had.

So no one can say that this government is trying to hide the dead from the public.

Btw, a soldier told of the tasteless and insensitive question a reporter asked his son as they were bidding farewell:

"Do you think your daddy will ever come back home?"

[August1991]

In an ideal world, violations would only occur when it is in the best interests of the public to do so. However, the media's 'rights and duties' are now to serve Mammon, not 'the good of people'.

yes, yes, yes.

You're correct and Mammon needs his four squares a day, so Mammon must be served.

Not with the CBC. The CBC is above reproach. The CBC does not serve Mammon, it serves the public good. Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

CBC journalists have houses in Toronto's Annex with mortgages, and kids' orthodontal bills to pay. So, how do CBC journalists "serve Mammon"?

It is not Mammon that is the problem. It is how we serve.

[betsy]

Apparently the veterans are not in favor of lowering the flag. They say soldiers fight and die to keep that flag up!

Thats not what I hear them saying.

Well, that's what a Talk Radio guy said on MDuffy...and I gather he got the message directly from a rep!

The Canadian Legion also supports Harper decision. Also mentioned on MDuffy.

[betsy]

Harper had a good response to the Liberals/NDP who insists that some parents (Fathere of Dinning was the most prominent being used) want the press in Trenton, even after Harper said that there are parents who want to grieve in private and had express the wish not to have the press around: "Stop pitting families against each other!"

Liberals and NDPs are not only dis-honouring our fallen soldiers by using their death to politicize.....they are also showing utter insensitivity, poor taste and ruthlessness of using just about anyone or anything (in this case, the girefs of families)...just to farther their agendas. Despicable!

And they have the gall to sit infront of the cameras and trying to make you believe that their way is the way of honour.

Maybe these politicians just simply don't know the meaning of honour.

[Nocrap]

Harper had a good response to the Liberals/NDP who insists that some parents (Fathere of Dinning was the most prominent being used) want the press in Trenton, even after Harper said that there are parents who want to grieve in private and had express the wish not to have the press around: "Stop pitting families against each other!"

Liberals and NDPs are not only dis-honouring our fallen soldiers by using their death to politicize.....they are also showing utter insensitivity, poor taste and ruthlessness of using just about anyone or anything (in this case, the girefs of families)...just to farther their agendas. Despicable!

And they have the gall to sit infront of the cameras and trying to make you believe that their way is the way of honour.

Maybe these politicians just simply don't know the meaning of honour.

I think we are missing the point. Dinning is a good example because he wrote a letter to the Prime Minister just weeks before the death of his son, asking Harper to reconsider lowering the flag. Two weeks later, his son is killed in the line of duty and once again Harper spit in his face.

Allowing cameras to photograph the return of our fallen soldiers, in flag draped coffins, reminds the rest of us of the enormity of what we are asking them to do.

This is not the same as sticking mikes in the families' faces. Comrades mourn the loss with the ceremonies in Afghanistan and Canadians mourn the loss as we see our sons and daughters returned, with proper and well earned ceremony.

From there they are given over to their families for private burial.

Harper is trying to follow Bush's lead, but look where it got him.

[margrace]

Mr. Harper has made it very plain that Like Mr. Bush if you are not with him you are against him. What Mr. Harper decrees is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. He will not change his mind on anything because he knows he is right and the people of Canada need to be shown the right way.

[Army Guy]

Nocrap:

I think we are missing the point. Dinning is a good example because he wrote a letter to the Prime Minister just weeks before the death of his son, asking Harper to reconsider lowering the flag. Two weeks later, his son is killed in the line of duty and once again Harper spit in his face.

Lowering the flag for our fallen soldiers is a fairly new thing (just over a year) in which the liberals started, it has not been tradition, It has been reserved for heads of state, or VIP's. Mr Harper did not spit in Mr Dinning face but declined his request for the reason stated above. There is a protocol for this type of thing that has been in place for as long as i can remember.

Allowing cameras to photograph the return of our fallen soldiers, in flag draped coffins, reminds the rest of us of the enormity of what we are asking them to do.

I'm hoping, as a soldier that our Government and the people of Canada has already taken that into account before you send us on these missions. The media has already sent you images of flag draped coffins and images military cerimony and of them being loaded onto aircraft. and them being offloaded on the tarmac in trenton. What more do the people want ?

This is not the same as sticking mikes in the families' faces. Comrades mourn the loss with the ceremonies in Afghanistan and Canadians mourn the loss as we see our sons and daughters returned, with proper and well earned ceremony.

Your right it's not the same but it happens, and it's disrespectful. These soldiers have done thier jobs our country has asked them to do, and the last thing "they" would want is for thier family and friend harrass during this time...And they will get the proper ceremony they deserve, but that it should be done without the media, without turning it into a circus , but keeping it focus on what it truely is.

Soldiers have asked why is it now that Canadians are so concerned over the deaths of our Comrads, what ever happen to all thier support in the past ?. Why all the need for additional ceremony for the dead, when was the last time the media made a big deal about the arrival of our soldiers coming home from tour.

When was the last time Canadians lined the tarmac in support of the troops just to say thanks, to shake a few hands. When was the last time Canadian people demanded they march in thier parades, invite them to public events, When was the last time you just walked up to a soldier and shook his hand to say thanks...

I'm not saying that Canadians do not support the troops but actions speak louder than words. Soldiers have become accustom to lack of fanfare, and now question WHY ? now. What are your motives and are we being used for someones elses gain.

Harper is trying to follow Bush's lead, but look where it got him

PM Harper is following his own lead, those that can not see that are just using him as an excuse to slam Bush and CO, there is no similar methods, to how we bring our fallen comrads home and how they are covered. Again it's another example on how these deaths are being used for political gain, And it is disrespectful. Why can we not just honour these men, lay them to rest, then debate on what went right and wrong and come up with a solution on how do we get it right. We owe them at least that much.

[BubberMiley]

When was the last time Canadians lined the tarmac in support of the troops just to say thanks, to shake a few hands.

I live in Winnipeg, and I think it was spring of 1997.

[Michael Hardner]

Toronto Sun

Opinion piece by Peter Worthington on Harper's missteps in this controversy. You can't accuse Worthington of being a left-lib biased journalist. A major part of the criticism was that Harper didn't go to Trenton.

I still think that this issue is squarely in the realm of politics, and it doesn't really matter much what the policy is with regards to these things. In that respect, Harper isn't being very smart politically right now.

[Black Dog]

Is it not a touch hypocritical for Harper and his acolytes to use living, breathing troops as props in political theatre and then turn around and declare them off-limits when they are killed?

[Army Guy]

Michael Hardner:

Opinion piece by Peter Worthington on Harper's missteps in this controversy. You can't accuse Worthington of being a left-lib biased journalist. A major part of the criticism was that Harper didn't go to Trenton

Perhaps you are right, the PM should have been there. What i disagree is his statement

and are entitled to see their homecoming.

. From a soldiers piont of view "what entitles them" to anything.

he also says " He's wrong. Their arrival "home" is also a vital part of the story". Again where do we draw the line, where does the the story stop, when do we say we've seen enough, and allow the family to grieve in thier own way.

While many families don't want reporters prying into their grief, others realize that Canadians want to share this moment and share the pain. The dead are our countrymen, serving our interests, and these days Canadians appreciate their soldiers as they haven't since the days of World War II

While true that our military has more support than it did 10 years ago, it is no where near the support the had in WW II. Military members are constantly reminded during training that actions speak louder than words. The people of Canada have yet turned thier words into action..and to date most Canadians will say they support our military, but that is where thier support ends...

By shrouding events in secrecy, it's as if there is shame attached. But the only shame is to prevent Canadians from witnessing the return of their honourable dead.

Again what secrecy, nobody is hiding anything.

I still think that this issue is squarely in the realm of politics, and it doesn't really matter much what the policy is with regards to these things. In that respect, Harper isn't being very smart politically right now.

Mr cretian was not there for all those that had fallen during his term in office either. does that make it right NO but i'm sure there is a reason.

[Black Dog]

For the record, I don't really care if they lower the flag. I don't think soldiers should be singled out over any other profession where the job involves an element of personal risk. For the same reasons, I definitely don't care if the media gets to cover the funerals or even the return of the remains of the soldiers or not.

This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot that obscures the very valid questions of whether our mission in Afghanistan is seving any real purpose (or indeed if its serving the purpose we'r etiold is being served).

[betsy]

I think we are missing the point. Dinning is a good example because he wrote a letter to the Prime Minister just weeks before the death of his son, asking Harper to reconsider lowering the flag. Two weeks later, his son is killed in the line of duty and once again Harper spit in his face.

Sorry, but what makes Dinning different from all the rest of spouses/parents who've lost a loved one?

Why should his request be given any preferential treatment over others? Besides, if he wants the photo-op...why doesn't he invite them to his son's funeral?? I gather the coffin will still be draped in a flag.

Does writing a letter elevates one to a higher status than the rest?

Dinning is reacting with his emotions....and I wouldn't be surprised if he is being skillfully manipulated.

If there's anyone doing the spitting here, it's those who are trying to use the soldiers and the families' grief to politicize the issue. The Liberals and the NDP! In this score, they're just one and the same...made from the same fabric! They're spitting on the slain soldiers!

As for anyone wanting to see flag-draped coffins....somebody from MDuffy had volunteered to lend footage of films, just so to let the dead soldiers be and have them laid to rest in peace.... with honour, respect and dignity.

[shoop]

That's the point. If he really wants the media present he can choose to do so.

Sorry, but what makes Dinning different from all the rest of spouses/parents who've lost a loved one?

Why should his request be given any preferential treatment over others? Besides, if he wants the photo-op...why doesn't he invite them to his son's funeral?? I gather the coffin will still be draped in a flag.

[betsy]

Allowing cameras to photograph the return of our fallen soldiers, in flag draped coffins, reminds the rest of us of the enormity of what we are asking them to do.

Exactly!

That's why the anti-war activists are politicising this to the utmost! They want to show the death toll...the body count!

[Black Dog]

That's why the anti-war activists are politicising this to the utmost! They want to show the death toll...the body count!

And Harper wants to hide it. This is a political issue: politiking on either side of the debate is to be expected.

[geoffrey]

That's why the anti-war activists are politicising this to the utmost! They want to show the death toll...the body count!

And Harper wants to hide it. This is a political issue: politiking on either side of the debate is to be expected.

Not really. You can look up the death toll on CBC. Every solider death will be on TV.

Gordon O'Connor made a statement that flags will be lowered at the bases that the soliders were stationed at, like it was traditionally. This is only about the flag on the peace tower, which traditionally is only lowered on Nov 11 and for a death of a peace officer or PM in Canada.

[Black Dog]

Not really. You can look up the death toll on CBC. Every solider death will be on TV.

Then let's say Harper does not want to give any undue publicity. Obviously, the death of a Canadian serving abroad is a news story and cannot be completely silenced. But one gets the feeling (and statements from the government and DoD have said as much) that there's no sense making a big deal out of these deaths when we can expect many more.

[Freshinit]

Not really. You can look up the death toll on CBC. Every solider death will be on TV.

Then let's say Harper does not want to give any undue publicity. Obviously, the death of a Canadian serving abroad is a news story and cannot be completely silenced. But one gets the feeling (and statements from the government and DoD have said as much) that there's no sense making a big deal out of these deaths when we can expect many more.

That's just it though, we SHOULD be making a big deal about it. If we are going to wave off Canadian casualties like they do in the American media then where does that leave us ethically? We have a peacekeeping image and we should maintain it. War should be a rare reality in Canada, not something we pass off as an inevitability because our Government says it is. I commend the media for taking an independant stand away from that of our Government.

[shoop]

Independent stand?

Hmmm, the Liberals under Paul Martin, as was typical, had no standard policy about lowering the flag on Parliament Hill after the death of a soldier. Sometimes they did it and sometimes they didn't. Every single case was a decision of the PMO.

This is merely a case of the Government setting a protocol and sticking to it.

That's just it though, we SHOULD be making a big deal about it. If we are going to wave off Canadian casualties like they do in the American media then where does that leave us ethically? We have a peacekeeping image and we should maintain it. War should be a rare reality in Canada, not something we pass off as an inevitability because our Government says it is. I commend the media for taking an independant stand away from that of our Government.

[Freshinit]

Well if he wants an integral stand on this kind of issue maybe he shouldn't lie about the alternative motives. One of the mothers of the fallen as publicly came out and criticized the non-publication of her son's casket. How can the conservatives claim they are protcting the privacy of the family members when the family members don't want the privacy in the first place?

[Black Dog]

That's just it though, we SHOULD be making a big deal about it. If we are going to wave off Canadian casualties like they do in the American media then where does that leave us ethically?

For all the ink spilled these last few days on this subject, I'd say we're far from waving off these casualties (heck: I'd even dispute your point about the U.S media ignoring casualties, but that's a different debate).

We have a peacekeeping image and we should maintain it. War should be a rare reality in Canada, not something we pass off as an inevitability because our Government says it is. I commend the media for taking an independant stand away from that of our Government.

I don't believe we should be in Afghanistan. I certainly don't buy the party line about why we're there. But I don't see the need to kick up such a fuss over the deaths of people who's job it is to kill and die (how's this for perspective: the four day battle for Vimy Ridge cost more than 3,950. More than 900 died in one day in the raid on Dieppe). But the reality is we're there right now and people are going to die. Emotional debates about flag-draped caskets and the proper position of a piece of fabric on a stick won't change that.