Dougie93 Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: That’s about where I’m at. If Canadians have become so soft and dependent on big government that they aren’t willing to assert Canadian culture and make the sacrifices to defend it, let the Yanks run it. It might be better than the current arrangement. We can’t even win at men’s hockey anymore. WTF?! the Neoliberal Globalist Post National State is an entirely cosmopolitan society ; Citoyens du monde Old Stock Canadians are now ruled over by an urbane managerial class therein but unless & until these ridiculous fops pass an Order in Council formally declaring war with a Conscription Act singed by HM The King himself we are not bound to go to war for them, let them reap what they have sowed Canada is not a republic, nobody in Canada answers to the public ; that's the saving grace thus in the meantime, stand by, wait out, smoke em' if you got em' Quote
CdnFox Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 On 2/9/2025 at 5:08 AM, Aristides said: Money was invented so you don't have to trade a chicken for a hammer. Actually that's not true. Originally money was invented for consistency, so that we all had a common hammer and there was no question about the quality of the hammer. Then money underwent another fundamental change whereby you didn't actually need the hammer anymore, you just had to have a note saying that the government had your hammer and would exchange it for this piece of paper. And all the way along it was really about power. Governments printed their own coins so that they would have the ability to control commerce, and governments went further to create the paper money system to facilitate credit creation and other things to increase the wealth of the government and nation without actually having to do so. So in the end money was invented for power. Quote
eyeball Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 51 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Actually that's not true. Originally money was invented for consistency, so that we all had a common hammer and there was no question about the quality of the hammer. You sorta get it, money meant you didn't have to cut your chicken in half if there was a question about the quality of the hammer. 54 minutes ago, CdnFox said: So in the end money was invented for power. That's certainly what people in power like to believe. Hammers were a great invention, they were also handy for bashing in the heads of people when they got too full of their own power - there's more than one way to deal with questionable qualities. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 21 hours ago, PIK said: Navies are now using AIP. Yes we are slow, but with this Trump BS, maybe the SKs or Japanese will put us hi on the list. Lol Seem the Japanese have 4 AIP units, that gives them 60 days. AIP is the latest / greatest on the market, with some very good boats being offered South Korea is offering a world class solution , who are talking to Canada as we speak....Germany's new type 212CD is also a good choice but is still under development and will take years for the first boat to be built.... However if your going to spend the money why not buy something that has more capabilities such as American or UK nuclear subs, and go the route Australia went, once faced with the enormous bill for conventional they found it might be better to go nuclear, and i'm sure the US and UK offer them some discounts along the way... Problem with all of that is UK is almost done with sub production...and is heavily invested into the next generation sub for the UK....US production lines are full swing to make up for lost time, even opened a third production line...or so say Naval review...Australia is more likely getting american made subs, with America squeezing them in some place and then buying the next generation of UK subs...only time will tell... UK subs are supposedly on par or better than their american counterpart, according to what i read, Not a navy guy....but their production lines could meet Canadas request in a few years, as the UK is waiting for the next gen sub which might take a decade to get here... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 22 minutes ago, Army Guy said: UK subs are supposedly on par or better than their american counterpart, according to what i read, Not a navy guy....but their production lines could meet Canadas request in a few years, as the UK is waiting for the next gen sub which might take a decade to get here... Canada could simply join the UK SSN program starting with joint Royal Navy / Royal Canadian Navy crews not a new class, simply an RCN Astute class maintained under contract by BAE Systems at Barrow-in-Furness doesn't even have to be part of the AUKUS agreement just go straight to London and negotiate a bilateral deal with the UK Canada doesn't need 12 SSK's, that's too many subs with too little capability 6 SSN's trumps 12 SSK's by orders of magnitude, actual strategic deterrent; way more bang for the buck SSN-880 (RCN) Astute class ; SSN-880 HMCS Algonquin SSN-881 HMCS Athabaskan SSN-882 HMCS Annapolis SSN-883 HMCS Assiniboine SSN-884 HMCS Acadia SSN-885 HMCS Aurora PERATI VERO PARATI Quote
PIK Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 22 hours ago, PIK said: Navies are now using AIP. Yes we are slow, but with this Trump BS, maybe the SKs or Japanese will put us hi on the list. Lol Seem the Japanese have 4 AIP units, that gives them 60 days. We will never see nukes subs being bought. Also very expensive to keep. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Dougie93 Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 8 minutes ago, PIK said: We will never see nukes subs being bought. Also very expensive to keep. if Canada will never assert its sovereignty at the geopolitical level then what is the point of Canada ? speech banning, gun banning & socialist healthcare ? I'd rather be the 51st State Quote
PIK Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: if Canada will never assert its sovereignty at the geopolitical level then what is the point of Canada ? speech banning, gun banning & socialist healthcare ? I'd rather be the 51st State I'm all for N subs.Should done this yrs ago. But at $10B a boat, its a hard sell in this country. But I've done some reading up on it, since I didn't have a clue about the sub world. It seems the Japanese are out. Leaves the Korean KSS - III which seems to be the front runner Read that the navy is pushing for AiP. They say it will quicker, cheaper and we don't have the personal for Nuke subs, but can fill more AiPs Edited February 11 by PIK Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Army Guy Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 59 minutes ago, PIK said: We will never see nukes subs being bought. Also very expensive to keep. Yes but we are looking for someplace to at least make it to 2 %, nato is talking about raising it to 3 to 3.5 % so Nuke subs is still on the table... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 1 minute ago, PIK said: I'm all for N subs.Should done this yrs ago. But at $10B a boat, its a hard sell in this country. they just spent $600 billion in one year on COVID they are talking about spending the same on the Trump War $10B is chump change for the GoC Canadian Normies are not actually fiscal conservatives; they pay no mind at all to what the government spends Quote
Army Guy Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 3 minutes ago, PIK said: I'm all for N subs.Should done this yrs ago. But at $10B a boat, its a hard sell in this country. But I've done some reading up on it, since I didn't have a clue about the sub world. It seems the Japanese are out. Leaves the Korean KSS - III which seems to be the front runner . Price of a Virgina class Nuclear sub is 11.3 billion for two, or 5.65 per boat....things just got cheaper... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
PIK Posted February 11 Report Posted February 11 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: they just spent $600 billion in one year on COVID they are talking about spending the same on the Trump War $10B is chump change for the GoC Canadian Normies are not actually fiscal conservatives; they pay no mind at all to what the government spends Why not both then? Replace the vics with the 1st diesels till the nukes come on line. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 8 minutes ago, PIK said: Leaves the Korean KSS - III which seems to be the front runner . 12 KSS-III is what Justin Trudeau pulled out of his ass at the NATO summit ; no intention to actually follow through Pierre Poilievre needs to differentiate himself from the Liberal same old same old thus why Brian Mulroney & Perry Beatty wanted SSN's in the 1980's now that the Canadian Normies are panicked by Donald Trump ; anything is possible Confederacy which won the war and lived to tell the tale ; in the face of them New York Yankees go big or go home Quote
PIK Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 Just now, Dougie93 said: 12 KSS-III is what Justin Trudeau pulled out of his ass at the NATO summit ; no intention to actually follow through Pierre Poilievre needs to differentiate himself from the Liberal same old same old thus why Brian Mulroney & Perry Beatty wanted SSN's in the 1980's now that the Canadian Normies are panicked by Donald Trump ; anything is possible Confederacy which won the war and lived to tell the tale ; in the face of them New York Yankees go big or go home Didn't the gov saying nuke subs? Seems the navy has been talking with builders for a while now and they are pushing for KSS. Manning the smaller subs will be hard enough let alone nuclear. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 10 minutes ago, PIK said: Why not both then? Replace the vics with the 1st diesels till the nukes come on line. DND has not even chosen a design nor a vendor for the RCN SSK replacement at the normal pace of DND procurement, you'll be lucky to see a new SSK by 2040 Canadian Normies are panicked by Donald Trump right now strike while the iron is hot join the UK SSN program while the production line is available at Barrow-in-Furness ; window of opportunity run the SSK-876 to the end of its lifespan in 2035 roll the SSN's out in parallel at the same time with crisis comes opportunity : chaos is a ladder Quote
Army Guy Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 7 minutes ago, PIK said: Why not both then? Replace the vics with the 1st diesels till the nukes come on line. Sure, but a lot of things need to be changed, like how our procurement is done, a new white paper put out, sort out critical needs for the military like,pay, benefits, housing, base infrastructure, updating our military justice system, Updating everything really like QR&O, DAOD's, every TO&E for every unit out there, replace capabilities that were lost or taken away... add to those TO&E new capabilities such as drones, anti drone equipment, etc etc...procure other much needed equipment and supplies...how about a new sleeping bag.....and anyone that had anything to do with buying the last one needs to be fired....well i could go on and you could write a book about it....But sure getting to 3 % could include two types of subs... we could also fix up our artic defences, increase our man power levels, step up in helping outside of Canada....give the world more Canada is'nt that what justin said.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 (edited) 7 minutes ago, PIK said: Didn't the gov saying nuke subs? Seems the navy has been talking with builders for a while now and they are pushing for KSS. Manning the smaller subs will be hard enough let alone nuclear. you build it and they will come....heard that in a movie....todays recruits are looking for a challenge, new equipment and job opportunities does that....free job training on a nuclear reactor...i mean come on not to mention SUbies have the best accommodations while in port, all that extra pay... who could resist...now today we offer a 40 year old sub that may or may not come up to the top...That's not very attractive.... Edited February 12 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 8 minutes ago, PIK said: Manning the smaller subs will be hard enough let alone nuclear. build them and they will come it will take a decade to build 6 SSN's recruit the crews, one at a time as you go once the RCN acquired SSN's ; playing in the big leagues with the Great Powers young men would want to enlist to serve on them Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 11 minutes ago, Army Guy said: you build it and they will come.... the RCN could also hire experienced crew from the RN Brits love serving in the CAF the CAF is pampered compared to serving in the UK Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 33 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Sure, but a lot of things need to be changed, like how our procurement is done, Donald Trump is at the gates State of Emergency Advanced Contract Award Notice (ACAN) to bypass the peacetime procurement process War Measures Act Quote
herbie Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 (edited) keep him more than 3500m from the border! Edited February 12 by herbie Quote
PIK Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Sure, but a lot of things need to be changed, like how our procurement is done, a new white paper put out, sort out critical needs for the military like,pay, benefits, housing, base infrastructure, updating our military justice system, Updating everything really like QR&O, DAOD's, every TO&E for every unit out there, replace capabilities that were lost or taken away... add to those TO&E new capabilities such as drones, anti drone equipment, etc etc...procure other much needed equipment and supplies...how about a new sleeping bag.....and anyone that had anything to do with buying the last one needs to be fired....well i could go on and you could write a book about it....But sure getting to 3 % could include two types of subs... we could also fix up our artic defences, increase our man power levels, step up in helping outside of Canada....give the world more Canada is'nt that what justin said.... I know i have friends in the military, they need everything. Look how long it took for new pistols. Recruitment is a mess. Yes the list doesn't end. But I think for the 1st time in a long time, Gov can start spending more on the military without getting voted out for doing it. 1 Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
PIK Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Dougie93 said: the RCN could also hire experienced crew from the RN Brits love serving in the CAF the CAF is pampered compared to serving in the UK I was thinking that earlier,just buy a couple already manned subs from the British. Lol Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 17 hours ago, Army Guy said: Price of a Virgina class Nuclear sub is 11.3 billion for two, or 5.65 per boat....things just got cheaper... an S119 Astute class SSN is $2.2 Billion USD the PBO estimates the costs of Canada buying 12 AIP SSK's at $60 billion USD so the AIP SSK custom designed & built from scratch would cost $5 billion USD each more than twice what an Astute class SSN would cost; purchased off the shelf the most cost efficient submarine option is to buy off the hot production line with the already full designed & developed platform no modifications, just train the RCN crews to the RN standard no need for logistics infrastructure in Canada, the maintenance will be done in the UK Canada would have to switch to the Royal Navy Spearfish torpedo, small price to pay back to the future ; more British than the British; in the face of the American Fenians at the gates VRI - VP 1 Quote
Dougie93 Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 On 2/10/2025 at 6:16 PM, Zeitgeist said: Basically if Canada refuses to step it up by making the sacrifices necessary for independence, including having a formidable military, it’s better off folding itself into the U.S. Stephen Harper has just declared ; "If I was still Prime Minister, I would be prepared to impoverish the country and not be annexed” 1 Quote
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