Will Trump destroy NATO?

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, Matthew said:

By what measure are you referring to? we lead.

They are militarily stronger alliance and they are more bound together than ever before.

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Trump refused to confirm US commitment to article 5 of the nato treaty

Bullshit ,

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After Trump, the US has once again coordinated support among NATO allies in support of Ukraine,

You mean after Russia invaded. Which did not happen nor would it have ever with trump and power.

The last time it was Obama who was in charge when Russia took a hunk of the Ukraine wasn't it?

And the US abandoned ukraine. They only jump back in went by some miracle Ukraine managed to hold on when America was certain it was going to fall within a week

As usual you're all about the lies and dishonesty. NATO was beginning to fall apart and had suffered badly under Obama who let Ukraine lose a hunk of their territory without a word. Spending was down, the commitment was down and trump went out there and shook the tree till just about everybody except Canada agreed to smarten up and reaffirmed their commitment to the cause. Biden had a decent NATO to work with because trump made that happen.

Again, this is white the democrats lost the election. Stupid lies and stupid conspiracy theories that everybody knows are complete bull crap. I guarantee you in 4 years when trump steps down NATO will be just fine. 

And if you don't want to spend the next 4 years after that under a republican government can I suggest that you learn how not to lie and bring up bullshit conspiracies and find legitimate things to criticize the Republicans about?

 

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

He functions as one,

Stopped here. There is no point reading past here because you start with the most ridiculous assumption.

[Aristides]

6 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

And what do they do if we increase penalties against them? Does Russia suddenly realize that is bad?

Why do you think they are motivated to learn what the countries that are aligned against them are thinking?

They aren't trying to learn, they are trying to influence.

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

By what measure are you referring to?

Trump refused to confirm US commitment to article 5 of the nato treaty, which is something all presidents do. Failing to do this itself weakened the alliance. Its the US saying "we may not have your back."

After Trump, the US has once again coordinated support among NATO allies in support of Ukraine, and actually helped expand the alliance to include Finland and Sweden. Meanwhile Trump's inner circle proposed a "dormant nato" policy idea, suggesting that the US take a back seat role and only ever help if it becomes an emergency, which again is akin to weakening the actual power of the alliance that we lead.

If that happens, the US won't be leading NATO anymore.

[Matthew]

3 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

Stopped here.

[Matthew]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Bullshit

Trump is the only president since 1949 who has not publicly endorsed article 5 of the nato treaty. This is quite well known. If you think it's wrong just show me him doing this.

[CdnFox]

Just now, Matthew said:

Trump is the only president since 1949 who has not publicly endorsed article 5 of the nato treaty. This is quite well known. If you think it's wrong just show me him doing this.

Really doesn't matter kid. Is there a clause or contract that says NATO falls apart or ceases to exist if he doesn't? His goal was to strengthen NATO and by casting a little doubt he successfully managed to get everyone who was slacking the exception of Canada to start paying their fair share. That strengthens NATO.

Funny how you claim he doesn't like NATO and is thinking of disbanding NATO, and yet he put all that energy and time into making it stronger and ensuring that everybody was doing their fair share for it. It's almost as if you're entirely wrong and in fact he actually approves of NATO and wants it to be stronger. Because that's what happened.

You just got your asses handed to you heartily in an election because you couldn't tell the truth. Maybe that's what you need to be focusing on moving forward. Trump Is not going to be dismantling NATO. You and I both know that 4 years from now we will be sitting here and NADA will still exist. If you guys can't learn to tell the truth and stop with the conspiracy bullshit you're going to keep losing election after election until people forget that you're even a party

[Matthew]

20 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Really doesn't matter kid. Is there a clause or contract that says NATO falls apart or ceases to exist if he doesn't?

Yes. The issue at hand is whether trump weakened NATO. The strength of the alliance is the promise that 32 countries have made in article 5 of the treaty. Any doubt as to whether the US will uphold that promise weakens the alliance dramatically. Which is what China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran want to happen.

[CdnFox]

37 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Yes. The issue at hand is whether trump weakened NATO.

Exactly. He didn't. 

Quote

The strength of the alliance is the promise that 32 countries have made in article 5 of the treaty.

not if they're not doing the things necessary to be able to honour that commitment.  If it's just on paper and they don't have any firepower it's utterly useless. 

Now they're stronger.  So there you go. 

[Matthew]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

not if they're not doing the things necessary to be able to honour that commitment.

That is true, and if trump did contribute toward shaking europe out of their complacency I have no problem giving him some credit where it is due. But in turn any firepower is useless as a deterrent against Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran if it is not backed by solid diplomatic mutual protection agreement. Trump adding ANY doubt to that promise by deliberately refusing to endorse artitle 5 ONLY serves the interest of Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran.

[Nationalist]

Lol...such a silly thread.

Trump did what he did because he was tired of the USA footing the entire bill while the EU screwed the USA in trade.

NATO has shown that their teeth are dentures.

[User]

3 hours ago, Matthew said:

That is true, and if trump did contribute toward shaking europe out of their complacency I have no problem giving him some credit where it is due. But in turn any firepower is useless as a deterrent against Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran if it is not backed by solid diplomatic mutual protection agreement. Trump adding ANY doubt to that promise by deliberately refusing to endorse artitle 5 ONLY serves the interest of Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran.

If?

He clearly did. He pushed them to meet their obligations. 

You know what makes NATO a credible defensive alliance? NATO countries actually contributing to that defense.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-16/nato-members-ramp-up-defense-spending-after-pressure-from-trump

 

[Aristides]

32 minutes ago, User said:

If?

He clearly did. He pushed them to meet their obligations. 

You know what makes NATO a credible defensive alliance? NATO countries actually contributing to that defense.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-16/nato-members-ramp-up-defense-spending-after-pressure-from-trump

 

Putin has done far more to increase NATO defence spending than anything Trump has done.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Matthew said:

That is true, and if trump did contribute toward shaking europe out of their complacency I have no problem giving him some credit where it is due. But in turn any firepower is useless as a deterrent against Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran if it is not backed by solid diplomatic mutual protection agreement. Trump adding ANY doubt to that promise by deliberately refusing to endorse artitle 5 ONLY serves the interest of Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran.

Trump never abandoned NATO and at one point or another gave warnings to virtually all of those groups.

Well I'm happy to grant you that his methods are mostly unconventional (but not acutally original, other presidents have been like this) At the end of the day the result is that nobody was willing to take a risk and invade or attack anybody else and nato was Stronger at the end of it. 

And he's not going to destroy NATO now.

Trump subscribes to the unpredictability theory of negotiation and international relations. He wants to be seen as crazy and that he might do anything at any moment, and then there's people rushing behind him and say "holy crap my boss is crazy and could go nuts any second, you HAVE to help me to prevent something bad from happening and give him what he wants!!!! (think of the children!!!)"  

Because they can't predict what he will do the other side tends to play it safe. As the saying goes you can't play chess with someone who's got a smith & Wesson.

That leads him to say things to the public which aren't really true and to allies and to enemies that aren't really true but you can never be 100% sure which part isn't true   It's kind of a dangerous way to do business but if you can pull it off it's extremely effective

 

[herbie]

He will make it stronger. They will all, including Canada increase their militarys now that the UHA has proven itself an untrustworthy ally

Should he propose a Ukraine settlement whereby it cedes territory to Russia the other members will consider booting the USA out of NATO and considering it a potential threat.

[User]

39 minutes ago, herbie said:

He will make it stronger. They will all, including Canada increase their militarys now that the UHA has proven itself an untrustworthy ally

Should he propose a Ukraine settlement whereby it cedes territory to Russia the other members will consider booting the USA out of NATO and considering it a potential threat.

What planet do you live on?

We have no formal military defense alliance with Ukraine and they are not a member of NATO. 

I swear, you guys come up with the absolute dumbest crap. 

[herbie]

2 hours ago, User said:

What planet do you live on?

The one America just excused itself from.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

The one America just excused itself from.

Ahhh - planet disinformation then, with the rest of the die hard democrats  

[Matthew]

19 hours ago, User said:

If?

Yes, if he did that's great. But either way its irrelevant since he has refused to endorse article 5 and has allowed his team to make policy proposals for reducing our role in NATO.

Not only does China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran love what he's done but so do leftists worldwide, who have long viewed NATO as an instrument of capitalist imperialism.

 

[User]

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

Yes, if he did that's great. But either way its irrelevant since he has refused to endorse article 5 and has allowed his team to make policy proposals for reducing our role in NATO.

Not only does China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran love what he's done but so do leftists worldwide, who have long viewed NATO as an instrument of capitalist imperialism.

 

There is no if, I even gave you a source. Which you have ignored. 

You are not a serious person interested in any truth here. 

[Matthew]

37 minutes ago, User said:

There is no if, I even gave you a source

Because it's irrelevant. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that the other 31 nations of NATO have quintupled their defense spending and that it's solely because of Donald J Trump's brilliant negotiating tactics, 5d chess moves, and intense learned expertise of all things known to mankind. Lets just assume it was the greatest diplomatic accomplishment of the previous 248 years of US history--nay, the single greatest feat in the last 10,000 years of civilization. No source needed, its just a given.

Alright but then next he also greatly undermines the core basis NATOs deterrence power by deliberately refusing to affirm America's commitment to article 5. What good is all the spending in the world if the actual greatest power of the alliance is thrown into doubt?

[User]

26 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Because it's irrelevant.

It is not irrelevant. You were the one who said, "If" he did it and even claimed you would give him credit where credit is due. I showed you he did. 

Yet, here you are, still acting like it didn't even happen, playing hypotheticals as if we must assume he played a role in increasing their spending. He did. 

 

28 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Alright but then next he also greatly undermines the core basis NATOs deterrence power by deliberately refusing to affirm America's commitment to article 5. What good is all the spending in the world if the actual greatest power of the alliance is thrown into doubt?

Who is doubting this other than some fringe people on the left using this as some oddball talking point?

Trump met with NATO nations routinely, he was even praised by NATO sec gen about his commitment to NATO. Trump himself praised the alliance publically at NATO meetings. 

Hell, back in 2019 it was France criticizing and bringing into doubt NATO resolve that Russia praised and it was Trump who called out France and defended NATO publically after. 

You are just playing some dumb gotcha game that Trump didn't say the magic phrase, so lets ignore all the things he actually did to strengthen NATO. 

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

Because it's irrelevant. Let's just assume for the sake of argument that the other 31 nations of NATO have quintupled their defense spending and that it's solely because of Donald J Trump's brilliant negotiating tactics, 5d chess moves, and intense learned expertise of all things known to mankind. Lets just assume it was the greatest diplomatic accomplishment of the previous 248 years of US history--nay, the single greatest feat in the last 10,000 years of civilization. No source needed, its just a given.

Alright but then next he also greatly undermines the core basis NATOs deterrence power by deliberately refusing to affirm America's commitment to article 5. What good is all the spending in the world if the actual greatest power of the alliance is thrown into doubt?

They absolutely did significantly increase their spending and it absolutely was because of trump. I don't know that I'd call it 5D chess, he basically just threatened the shit out of them and they said "WOAH he big mad" and decided to fix the issues. 

Except Canada, somehow we've managed to get off the hook

[Matthew]

4 hours ago, User said:

Who is doubting this other than some fringe people on the left using this as some oddball talking point?

Trump attended multiple NATO meetings and refused to affirm our article 5 commitments for years.

In one speech he gave, he refused to read the sentence in his prepared remarks that confirmed our commitment to article 5.

He eventually did do so a month later in a fairly low profile way. But unnecessarily making it an issue for years suggests reluctance and projects to the whole world weakness in the alliance.

And the trump strategists have apparently been allowed to continue making proposals for weakening our nato commitments, which further fuels doubts as to his sincerity on the issue.

[robosmith]

On 11/6/2024 at 10:17 AM, Legato said:

https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-releases-third-bank-memo-detailing-payments-to-the-bidens-from-russia-kazakhstan-and-ukraine/

Selling "influence" is NOT ILLEGAL. Delivering policy contrary to American interests CAN BE illegal.

Do you know the difference? LMAO

[Legato]

4 hours ago, robosmith said:

Selling "influence" is NOT ILLEGAL. Delivering policy contrary to American interests CAN BE illegal.

Do you know the difference? LMAO

Influence peddling is often associated with corruption. Maybe not illegal in the US in the technical sense.

No matter how you cut it, the stink permeates everyone.