Will Trump destroy NATO?

[User]

4 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Article 5 of the nato treaty is in fact a formal commitment. Trump's weakness in communicating an unwavering policy of upholing that agreement is not nit picking.

I did not say it was not a formal commitment. 

You have moved the goal posts from him not saying the magic words to a broader claim of him not communicating an unwavering policy. Sorry, you lose. 

5 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Its not officially a formal commitment. In 2014 it was a 10 year goal that counties informally agreed to work towards. No treaty was signed or any other kind of binding agreement.

And?

Try to address my point this time:

the 2% commitment is still in fact a commitment NATO members have agreed to several times starting in 2006 and again in 2014.

6 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Not true, the strategic value of the alliance is first in the solidity the agreement. Second the sum total of our alliance's populations and economic capacities. Third the upkeep and preparedness of our arsenal. Weakening the most important item in order to marginally improve preparedness is deeply ignorant.

I did not say anything about the "strategic value of the alliance." Nice strawman. You lose again. 

 

[CdnFox]

40 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Article 5 of the nato treaty is in fact a formal commitment. Trump's weakness in communicating an unwavering policy of upholing that agreement is not nit picking.

 

Its not officially a formal commitment. In 2014 it was a 10 year goal that counties informally agreed to work towards. No treaty was signed or any other kind of binding agreement.

Not true, the strategic value of the alliance is first in the solidity the agreement. Second the sum total of our alliance's populations and economic capacities. Third the upkeep and preparedness of our arsenal. Weakening the most important item in order to marginally improve preparedness is deeply ignorant.

You can't pick and choose. Either people live up to their commitments, formal or not, or all of the commitments may be set aside.

That was trump's message, it's a perfectly valid message, and it motivated most of NATO to action. NATO is stronger as a result

[Nationalist]

If Trump decides to pull US troops out of Europe, NATO would become...decentralized. Would England or France post troops and arms to replace US absence? I wonder.

[Matthew]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Either people live up to their commitments, formal or not, or all of the commitments may be set aside.

Exactly. Tell this to Donald Trump when he deliberately sows seeds of doubt about our commitments to the NATO treaty.

[Matthew]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

If Trump decides to pull US troops out of Europe, NATO would become...decentralized. Would England or France post troops and arms to replace US absence? I wonder.

If/when Trump gets his way and the US abandons NATO, Europe would lead their own reduced defense and the US would sit in isolation. Russia and China would escalate their territorial expansions.

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, User said:

You have moved the goal posts

Nope the goal post is still the 1949 NATO treaty. Your attempt to invent new nato requirements to justify Trumps faithlessness has failed.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Matthew said:

Exactly. Tell this to Donald Trump when he deliberately sows seeds of doubt about our commitments to the NATO treaty.

There's no need. Donald trump is quite clear on the point.

He said he was quite happy and prepared to live up to the terms of the agreement, but that it seemed to him that the others didn't want to. So he was prepared to walk away seeing as the others weren't prepared to keep their word

See how that works? You don't get to break your commitment and then get mad when someone else says if you're breaking the commitment I might too. That position is logically and morally indefensible.

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Matthew said:

If/when Trump gets his way and the US abandons NATO, Europe would lead their own reduced defense and the US would sit in isolation. Russia and China would escalate their territorial expansions.

Who said Trump wants to abandon NATO? Give it a rest Tweenkie-Poo...it's chickenshit statements like this that lost you freaks the election. Grow up.

[DUI_Offender]

[DUI_Offender]

 

Canada must do it's part, and commit to the 2% GDP threshold for NATO. I have always been in favour of building up our military. Now is the time to do so. We spend 1/30 of thee amount of the Americans. We need to double our contributions by 2030.

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

He said he was quite happy and prepared to live up to the terms of the agreement, but that it seemed to him that the others didn't want to.

The "terms of the agreement" is the 1949 treaty and only Trump and his team have thrown that treaty into doubt.

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Who said Trump wants to abandon NATO?

Trump's actions as president, statements he's made, policy proposals of his team. Republicans and Democrats in Congress literally passed a law to try to prevent Trump from leaving NATO, which Trump will simply violate with impunity.

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, Matthew said:

The "terms of the agreement" is the 1949 treaty and only Trump and his team have thrown that treaty into doubt.

You got into that magic stage where you repeat yourself like a bit of an child.

Well dumb it down and see if that helps. So little countries weren't living up to what was expected of them. Trump said do it or we're out.

That is absolutely the correct thing to do. And you can cry baby to your heart's content but neither was stronger as a result

[Nationalist]

10 hours ago, Matthew said:

Trump's actions as president, statements he's made, policy proposals of his team. Republicans and Democrats in Congress literally passed a law to try to prevent Trump from leaving NATO, which Trump will simply violate with impunity.

So...demanding all NATO nations live up to their obligations was a bad thing to do in your opinion?

Trump doesn't need to formally leave NATO. He could simply pull US forces out of Europe. Then what?

Edited November 11, 2024 by Nationalist

[User]

14 hours ago, Matthew said:

Nope the goal post is still the 1949 NATO treaty. Your attempt to invent new nato requirements to justify Trumps faithlessness has failed.

It is not a NATO requirement to say the magic phrase either. Glad you have finally conceded this dumb argument you have been trying to make here. 

 

[Matthew]

11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Trump said do it or we're out.

Yep, good job. Trump suggesting we're going to leave NATO is the topic of this thread. The trump fans here have been arguing that he has never suggested leaving NATO. So thanks for backing my side comrade.

[Matthew]

1 hour ago, User said:

It is not a NATO requirement to say the magic phrase either.

It's not about saying a phrase, its about wondering what the US policy is.  If people ask the president if he supports article 5 and offers no clear answer, and then he cuts the part of a NATO speech that would have answered that question, and his strategist craft policy plans for changing our stance with NATO, then it creates justifiable narrative of doubt.

[Matthew]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

demanding all NATO nations live up to their obligations was a bad thing to do in your opinion?

Nope that's a normal thing that's been done for decades.

Doing it by threatening to end the alliance is itself an act that weakens the national security of the US.

[User]

Just now, Matthew said:

It's not about saying a phrase, its about wondering what the US policy is.  If people ask the president if he supports article 5 and offers no clear answer, and then he cuts the part of a NATO speech that would have answered that question, and his strategist craft policy plans for changing our stance with NATO, then it creates justifiable narrative of doubt.

Yeah, that is exactly what you are on here complaining about. Now it isn't?

Where did people ask Trump specifically if he supports article 5? You are on here complaining he just didn't say it. Not that anyone directly asked him and he refused. 

If you want to bring up more circumstances, stop ignoring all the ones that don't support your case that I have brought up. 

 

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Nope that's a normal thing that's been done for decades.

Doing it by threatening to end the alliance is itself an act that weakens the national security of the US.

Weakens national security of who?

Germany?

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Matthew said:

Yep, good job. Trump suggesting we're going to leave NATO is the topic of this thread. The trump fans here have been arguing that he has never suggested leaving NATO. So thanks for backing my side comrade.

ROFLMAO  what a sad little man you are to consider that some sort of victory  

If it makes you happy i suppose it's true i misspoke, what he said is "YOU'RE out"  

kid you have lost this one so hard, and yet you go back to your usual routine of when you've lost an argument and can't make a point you continue blathering like an !diot and just make yourself look dumber and dumber.

Trump strengthened NATO. NATO was Stronger when trump left than when trump showed up. Learn to cope.

[Matthew]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Weakens national security of who?

The US leads the biggest military alliance in all of world history. That alliance is a large part of US strength as a global power. Weakening our own alliance therefore weakens the US.

[Matthew]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

it's true i misspoke

No problem, it happens.  Let me know if you think of anything else to worthwhile to contribute to the topic. 👍

[Legato]

9 minutes ago, Matthew said:

No problem, it happens.  Let me know if you think of anything else to worthwhile to contribute to the topic. 👍

Here you go.

Trump coerced NATO members to act on their obligations by threatening to withdraw, and they did, now NATO is stronger than before. That my friend is the end of the story.

[Nationalist]

49 minutes ago, Matthew said:

The US leads the biggest military alliance in all of world history. That alliance is a large part of US strength as a global power. Weakening our own alliance therefore weakens the US.

Matt...the US military IS NATO. Wakey wakey.