Some Liberal MPs are mounting a new effort to oust Justin Trudeau

[herbie]

[Moonlight Graham]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. True but they're all declining, which is why world population will start to decline in 40 years.  I have been talking about this for years and people have been ignoring or disputing it.   I don't think that the human race will go extinct, but human history and our trajectory will change in ways we can't yet understand.  So - threat to humanity maybe but not to the west.

2. I work in "corporate".  While there are SOME options for corporate away from high prices they are far away from all of our friends and family.  Those factors, as well as economic, drive where people live.  I would have to live in the north and work for a government outfit.  Could I do it ?  I suppose.  But it's not our choice, as you say.  Economics includes something called BEHAVIOURAL economics, which is at play here.  More on this later i the post.

3. And the sub-saharans are better at dying, if you go by... life expectancy, infant mortality and so on.  They're poor and their economies are un-developed.  Their fertility patterns are simply another example of regressive cultural and economic practices of the regions.

4. I like that you are saying "we".  "We" need to have conversations.  This reveals a concern for the collective.  Not that I think you don't have this innately.  But the "we" type conversations have been rejected by a lot of people in a culture that elevates "individualism".

5. With behavioural economics, you have to use carrot AND stick.  The people I know in public professions - teachers, cops, military, medical - have followed in the footsteps of their families.  If you want to think that cops and soldiers are just better than the rest of us, fine.  But when you are talking about policy you have to think about carrot and sticks.  And for the record, having a gold plated pension, six figures not including overtime, and minimal schooling to get there is pretty sweet.  The soldiers I know don't have it quite that nice, but lots of other perks.  I don't have anything against these folks but in practical terms, it's carrots and sticks. 

6.  People don't want to make sacrifices, it's true.  But having children is an expensive nightmare... buying a house vs a 1-bedroom apartment ?  Daycare ?  Finding a doctor ?  Please.

7.  Yes, we make huge decisions constantly - you've hit the mark with this.  Technology is the biggest example but there are lots of other examples.  On the flip side, huge problems are reported for decades and are left unsolved.  Climate change, doctor shortages... 

8. Ok, how about Nietzsche ?  Mr. "God is dead" ?  Rock n Roll ?  People were complaining about "kids these days" in the 1950s for sure... and you can track it back through history to forever ago.  I maintain that "happiness" above responsibility is the driving force behind our western philosophy.  You seem to agree here.

9. So... HOW do we forget a new morality ?   WHAT will it be ?  WHO will lead the conversation ?   These are questions to ponder.

10. Sure but... Christianity also accepted the sinner and eschewed judgement.  But ok.

11. OK... you're veering in Rant territory.   You are looking for the emergence of a moral centre once again.  You notice that from time to time I express past hopes for Jordan Peterson to be this kind of figure.  His failings were his ego and his inability to be universal in his morality.  In short -> all types suffer from this ailment. 

You have to fix it, either the people, the environment - including the public sphere, or fix reality.  Of the 3, I think maybe the public sphere is the most realistically open to repair  

Good convo, long posts, I don't have as much time to edit so please forgive errors.

"To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities" amiright ?

I'll try to make this replies more concise.

1.  I don't think the human race will go extinct either.  My point is it will if trends don't reverse (which they will, or technology will change, e.g., vastly enhanced life expectancy from stem cells or who knows what - but we're playing God again).  I do think western societies are under threat of disappearing culturally.  e.g. Italy won't be very "Italian" anymore etc.  Ethnic Italians are going to become a minority in their own country after enough decades.  The odds this will also cause social and political schisms is 100%, and we're seeing it already.

2.  You could do it, you just don't want to.  This is a choice.

3.  Is this any different than how western societies were 150 years ago?  Poorer, lower life expectancy, infant mortality etc?  But the population in society was self-sustaining and actually grew.

4.  Yes.  My concern is society.

5.  My grandad was in the military.  They give you a card you can show to get personal discounts on hotels, restaurants, flights, insurance etc for the businesses that offer them.  He always refused to take any of these discounts because he said he didn't serve to get benefits and nobody owned him anything, he wanted to serve his country.  He had a sense of duty and honour.  Of course not everyone is like this, but I think this was more common in past times.

6.  Things were much more difficult economically for the vast majority of human history.  The most economically well-off societies in human history don't want to have children.  Think about that.

7.  Agree.  Selfish short-term thinking.

8.  "Pursuit of happiness" is subjective.  For most it used to mean having a job, a home, a spouse and a family.

9.  The new messiahs, prophets, and preachers.  Now they're thought leaders as you say.  Feminist thinkers through the decades have influenced a lot of women.  Now we're seeing the male version of that, like Peterson, which is interesting.  Feminism?  Nothing is more female and feminine than child-bearing & child-raising.  Maybe future feminists will start valuing that more.

10.  Progressive vs conservative isn't much different than Catholic vs Protestant.  Heretics will be burned at the stake.  "I'm progressive, I can't marry a conservative!".

11.  Yeah Peterson has been getting worse.  He's doing more of what you don't like, which is being a kooky arse.  His tweets are bad.

More and more young people seem to be rejecting social leftism and are looking for something else, sometimes a return to old values.  It's just like religion.  Your teachers and media brainwash you into a certain way of thinking growing up and then when you get older you realize you've been duped and start rejecting it.  I'm sorry that you're devout Christian and this may offend you 😂.  Call me a Nazi (Satan worshipper).

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. I'll try to make this replies more concise.

2.  The odds this will also cause social and political schisms is 100%, and we're seeing it already.

3.  You could do it, you just don't want to.  This is a choice.

4.  The most economically well-off societies in human history don't want to have children.  Think about that.

5. More and more young people seem to be rejecting social leftism and are looking for something else, sometimes a return to old values. 

6.  Your teachers and media brainwash you into a certain way of thinking growing up and then when you get older you realize you've been duped and start rejecting it.  😂

1. Me too.

2. The question is how much? And I contend that economic threats are more likely to cause instability.

3. Everything is as choice.  You can only ask so much of people.  I'll take up your theme of selfishness for one second to point out that people aren't even willing to switch to paper straws to reduce plastic use.  That's a choice too.  Don't tell me they're doing it for reasons other than comfort and convenience.

4. Those who want children will continue to want them.   The genes of people who can sacrifice for others will persist.

5. Cite?  Is this manifesting itself in less selfish behaviour somehow?

6. You call it brainwashing because you don't agree with it.  You didn't call the aforementioned return to conservatism in 5. above brainwashing.

---+

I maintain that the change you are looking for will happen upon the foundation of a new public sphere with common values and a return to self examination and humility.

[SpankyMcFarland]

It’s a regular problem in parliamentary democracies at the end of a mandate. I suspect dumping Trudeau would be better for the party in some ridings - he can’t campaign his way out of this - but it’s a tough way for a new leader to start. They should look on the bright side - they will do better than Kim Campbell and it will be up from there unless PP can change his tone considerably. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It’s a regular problem in parliamentary democracies at the end of a mandate. I suspect dumping Trudeau would be better for the party in some ridings - he can’t campaign his way out of this - but it’s a tough way for a new leader to start. They should look on the bright side - they will do better than Kim Campbell and it will be up from there unless PP can change his tone considerably. 

Sure, just look at what happened to Kim Campbell when she was elected leader shortly before an election. And any leader elected right now would still have to run the country it's not like they'd have a lot of free time to be putting their campaign together.

But they can't force him out. There's no mechanism in the liberal party constitution that allows them to remove a sitting prime minister. The rule has always been if you win you get to stay and nobody gets to say otherwise. So if he's going to stay there and suck up the free benefits and perks even if it drives them into the ground they have no choice other than to force an election right now by voting against their own party

[Army Guy]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

5. Cite?  Is this manifesting itself in less selfish behaviour somehow?

 

It's called a record of serviced card, issued by DND after released on behalf of veterans affairs, upon it is your last rank, how many years you served and if you were honorable released or not....it is a card that proves you served....and some companies do give a military discount if you ask, not all but some..

[Moonlight Graham]

12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Me too.

2. The question is how much? And I contend that economic threats are more likely to cause instability.

3. Everything is as choice.  You can only ask so much of people.  I'll take up your theme of selfishness for one second to point out that people aren't even willing to switch to paper straws to reduce plastic use.  That's a choice too.  Don't tell me they're doing it for reasons other than comfort and convenience.

4. Those who want children will continue to want them.   The genes of people who can sacrifice for others will persist.

5. Cite?  Is this manifesting itself in less selfish behaviour somehow?

6. You call it brainwashing because you don't agree with it.  You didn't call the aforementioned return to conservatism in 5. above brainwashing.

---+

I6.   maintain that the change you are looking for will happen upon the foundation of a new public sphere with common values and a return to self examination and humility.

2.  Why do you constantly repeat this whattaboutism?  It's a red herring logical fallacy.  This is like arguing that climate change is a more important than economic issues therefore let's stop talking about economic issues.  Inflation and debt problems in the US isn't a valid reason to ignore the rise of racism and decline in race relations in the US.  They're both problems and both need to both be solved.  Anyone who says rising multiculturalism won't cause social instability is wrong.  Period.  The evidence is so overwhelming, both now and through history, its not refutable.

3.  Ok?  Sounds like another whattaboutism.  Comfort and convenience are not the most important values in life.  People are getting lazier and more selfish, we seem to agree on this.

4.  Exactly.  These progressive values will go the way of the dodo bird because the people who believe them will cease to exist and pass on their ideas.  I'd prefer we realize how bad these ideas are before we go extinct.  No different than climate change.  Call me a birth-rate alarmist LOL

5.  Young men are getting red-pilled and turning to men's rights, Donald Trump, Jordan Peterson and the like.  Some progressive ideas, like some aspects of feminism that are anti-masculinity or even anti-male, or woke hiring policies that's leaving them out of the job market, isn't working for them.

6.  Sure, seems pretty vague though.  Not much in terms of actionable solutions there.

[taxme]

On 10/12/2024 at 12:31 PM, blackbird said:

This is all good news for the Conservatives.  Should obliterate the Liberals.  Well deserved.

Meanwhile Trudeau is busy jetting around the world and is now in southeast Asia giving away Canadian taxpayer money to help clean up a river in southeast Asia.  Also no doubt enjoying wining and dining with Asian leaders at taxpayer's expense.  He knows has limited time to milk taxpayers now.  The clock is running out.  Why would he voluntarily step down and give up the last days of luxury travelling and milking the system?  That would make no sense.

While our dear comrade leader in Ottawa borrows millions to blow and gets to travel the world for free, most Canadians have to stay at home because they cannot afford to be able to travel. That imbecile in Ottawa should be arrested and charged with crimes against Canadians and crimes against humanity.

Sorry, just joking. We all know that will never happen here in la la land called Canada. Canadian politicians can make asses of we the sheeple and will never really will pay for their sticking their fingers up in the air at us. 

The Bloc, liberals and the NDP will hold off from calling an election until next October because they do not want to see the Conservatives possibly winning the next election. There is still more sucking to be done off the taxpayer before it comes to an end. Aw well. 😷

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Why do you constantly repeat this whattaboutism? 
2. It's a red herring logical fallacy. 
3. This is like arguing that climate change is a more important than economic issues therefore let's stop talking about economic issues. 
4. Inflation and debt problems in the US isn't a valid reason to ignore the rise of racism and decline in race relations in the US.  They're both problems and both need to both be solved. 
5. Anyone who says rising multiculturalism won't cause social instability is wrong.  Period.  The evidence is so overwhelming, both now and through history, its not refutable.

6.  Ok?  Sounds like another whattaboutism.  Comfort and convenience are not the most important values in life.  People are getting lazier and more selfish, we seem to agree on this.

7.  Exactly.  These progressive values will go the way of the dodo bird because the people who believe them will cease to exist and pass on their ideas.  I'd prefer we realize how bad these ideas are before we go extinct.  No different than climate change.  Call me a birth-rate alarmist LOL

8.  Young men are getting red-pilled and turning to men's rights, Donald Trump, Jordan Peterson and the like.  Some progressive ideas, like some aspects of feminism that are anti-masculinity or even anti-male, or woke hiring policies that's leaving them out of the job market, isn't working for them.

9.  Sure, seems pretty vague though.  Not much in terms of actionable solutions there.

1. Because it's entirely relevant and responds to your pessimistic point.  
2. Those are two different things.  Red Herrings might be true, you know, but they're a distraction from the point.  Logical Fallacy is something that is logically incorrect.
3. I disagree.  Both sets of issues are closely linked.
4. Right but they're related in many areas of discussion.  If you tell me "the economy is in trouble because of these Mexicans taking the jobs" (you're not arguing that) then I can rightly explain why your argument is really about race and racism.
5. Bullsh1t.  100%.  Rome, America, Canada at their peak had buoyant economies and multiculturalism.  There's no reason you can't have both.
6. Yes, we agree.  It's not whatabout it's an example.  
7. I didn't say progressive.  I said people who don't want children will see their bloodlines and genetic markers and to an extent, their culture, end.
8.  This is a symptom.  I won't say of what because you get angry when I do.
9. I offer a roadmap to moving forward is all.

[Political Smash]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:40 AM, CdnFox said:

Some Liberal MPs are mounting a new effort to oust Justin Trudeau | CBC News

As is the story says a group of liberals are circulating an ironclad pledge to demand that Justin Trudeau go away. 

They can't force him, but they can demand it.

They're also pissed off that a new campaign manager has not been chosen since the last one step down in September. An election could be called at any minute and they have no election chair.

This is really going to tear out the liberal party. And it's very stupid to be honest.

Their chance to do this was a year ago when it became obvious that believer was building a ton of steam and the liberals were not going to win the next election with Trudeau. To elect a new leader and for that leader to get ready and do the things necessary to set up to win an election or at least deny the conservatives a majority.

Now if he leaves they're screwed. There is no time to fight a leadership race and for that person to get ready for the next campaign. It is less than a year until the start of the new campaign. Even if they rush a leadership race it's still 6 months and that's going to be sloppy and fast, and then they would only have about 5 months to get ready for the next election and right now they don't even have an election chair who could pass on the work that have been done. Not only would such circumstances probably not do any better than Trudeau would have done, but it could collapse the vote entirely

Even more concerning if I were them would be the fact that Justin can now become thoroughly enraged with them, not step down and wait until the summer before announcing he will step back much like his father did. Now they wouldn't even have time for a leadership race before the election started, it would be an unmitigated disaster

Justin Trudeau has probably led the liberal party to ruin. It may well be three elections before they get their act back together, similar to what we've seen in Ontario

Toilet paper is far more valuable than the so called liberal party 

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 10/30/2024 at 8:16 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Because it's entirely relevant and responds to your pessimistic point.  
2. Those are two different things.  Red Herrings might be true, you know, but they're a distraction from the point.  Logical Fallacy is something that is logically incorrect.
3. I disagree.  Both sets of issues are closely linked.
4. Right but they're related in many areas of discussion.  If you tell me "the economy is in trouble because of these Mexicans taking the jobs" (you're not arguing that) then I can rightly explain why your argument is really about race and racism.
5. Bullsh1t.  100%.  Rome, America, Canada at their peak had buoyant economies and multiculturalism.  There's no reason you can't have both.
6. Yes, we agree.  It's not whatabout it's an example.  
7. I didn't say progressive.  I said people who don't want children will see their bloodlines and genetic markers and to an extent, their culture, end.
8.  This is a symptom.  I won't say of what because you get angry when I do.
9. I offer a roadmap to moving forward is all.

1.  How does a rough economy and its potential to cause instability in any way refute the point that cultural schisms can cause instability?  One being more of less than the other doesn't mean the other shouldn't be a concern.  It's a red herring.  It's a logical fallacy.  You want to stick your head in the sand and ignore issues because they make you uncomfortable to talk about them and don't align with your ideology.  Progressives are great at espousing how inclusive we should be and how great multiculturalism is but they never acknowledge the problems that can occur with multiculturalism.  They're and you are naive idealists who just assume everything will work out fine.

2.  No they aren't.  A red herring is a type of logical fallacy.  You're not addressing the argument, you're saying "X is another problem that I think is bigger, therefore we should not talk about Y".  If water pollution is a problem and climate change is an even bigger problem you don't just ignore water pollution.

3.  You missed my point entirely.

4.  And what if there were a situation where Mexicans were actually taking people's jobs?  What about where big increases in immigration and temporary residents is increasing demand for housing and contributing to a housing crisis?

5.  So multiculturalism hasn't been a problem in Canada and hasn't caused schisms and instability?  Quebec says you're wrong.  The indigenous would argue as well.  And Muslims and Britain and France, the Irish and Scottish in the UK, Punjabis/Sikhs in India, Buddhists in China. Coptic Christians in Egypt. Tamils in Sri Lanka etc

7.  Exactly, so basically most people in the west.  You agree with my main point then.  Suicidal death cult.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  How does a rough economy and its potential to cause instability in any way refute the point that cultural schisms can cause instability? 

2.  It's a red herring.  It's a logical fallacy. 

3. You want to stick your head in the sand and ignore issues because they make you uncomfortable to talk about them and don't align with your ideology. 

4. Progressives are great at ...

5.  A red herring is a type of logical fallacy. 

6. You're not addressing the argument, you're saying "X is another problem that I think is bigger, therefore we should not talk about Y".  If water pollution is a problem and climate change is an even bigger problem you don't just ignore water pollution.

7.  You missed my point entirely.

8.  And what if there were a situation where Mexicans were actually taking people's jobs?  What about where big increases in immigration and temporary residents is increasing demand for housing and contributing to a housing crisis?

9.  So multiculturalism hasn't been a problem in Canada and hasn't caused schisms and instability? 

10. Quebec says you're wrong.  The indigenous would argue as well.  And Muslims and Britain and France, the Irish and Scottish in the UK, Punjabis/Sikhs in India, Buddhists in China. Coptic Christians in Egypt. Tamils in Sri Lanka etc

11.  Exactly, so basically most people in the west.  You agree with my main point then.  Suicidal death cult.

1. It's much worse under a bad economy.  An extreme example is Nazi Germany, with Germans tolerating Jews for a long time until the economy tanked after WW1.  People quietly griped about multiculturalism but nationalism in Canada always becomes a bigger issue during economic downturns.  

2. I think I stated already that those are different things.

3. I think you said this already too.  It's HORSESH1T.  You might be identifying symptos, but not a root cause.  Check your assumptions.  And even though I explain it to you again and again, you come back at me and accuse me of a personal failing.  You don't assume you might be wrong, and you don't look at what I'm saying: you say "MH is wrong because he's blinded by progressivism".  It's insulting and arrogant on your part.

4. I stopped reading this paragraph at "at".  It's another insult, and I don't need it.  I don't accuse you of being a racist who argues because ... whatever etc. etc... I want to find out what's really happening in the world, and what your analysis of the facts are.  That's why I'm discussing with you.

5.  Didn't I already post the definitions ?  If not go google it.  They're different things.  It doesn't matter anyway.  If we can't agree on that part, then let's move on.

6. Ok except your analogy is bad because climate change doesn't cause water pollution and vice versa.  We have already seen that when the economy is good Canada is perfectly able to support multiculturalism.  Other countries, like France, probably less so but still gave up nationalistic models when the EU showed them the way to prosperity.

7. See #6.  You can't separate discussion of two things when they're closely linked.

8. Well, there are these things called trade-offs.  Do you think Mulroney, Chretien, Marti, Harper and now Trudeau expected NO job losses through immigration and trade policy ?  Of course not.  They traded off jobs in some sectors for jobs in others, the idea being that overall the deal would help the economy.  

9. Schisms ?  Sure to some degree.  Instability ?  As in... mass demonstrations, riots, falling governments, insurrections ?  No.  The biggest insurrections we've had in the last 50 years were from Quebec Separatist Terrorists and a bunch of Anti-Vax Truckers.  So I wouldn't say instability.

10.  Yes, you are right that I should be careful not to overstate my case here.  My framing is in Canada, and that doesn't apply to Ireland/N. Ireland, Israel/Palestine and longstanding ethnic conflicts.  Point tken.

11. I think everybody on earth is going this way.  You can't deny that this is a cross-cultural thing.  Japan is way ahead of us.  And they don't have immigration, so it's going to be lights-out in Japan at some point.  I read that the population will decline by 50% by 2100.