Robert F Kennedy Lays Out the Whole Start of the Ukrainian War. How Long Before He Becomes the 3rd Kennedy....?

[myata]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

someone like you, a moral crusading lunatic

we'll have to put the likes of you in your place, simply by realpoltik

You've got it, no moral anymore. Glad that we're clear on that. Really there's nothing to add here, and no point either.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

people who love Vladimir Putin and want to change their gender so they can have his babies.

But it's important to give them the opportunity to spill it and show who they really are, pumping their chests, playing anthems and saluting to standards. This is what's real and true, about them.

[WestCanMan]

15 hours ago, User said:

Sigh... you conspiracy theory types are all the same. You have some desire to believe everything and anything other than reality. 

You said: "in exchange for a promise that NATO never moves east of there."

James Baker had no such authority to promise that, and he even said as much afterward. A final agreement was signed after this that included no such language. It was NEVER part of any deal or commitment. 

Trying to push that in the context you did or RFK did is just total bullshit. 

 

James Baker was the secretary of state, dummy. 3rd-highest ranking American politician and the country's primary representative to foreign countries. 

The Sec of State absolutely holds a high enough office that their representations are that of America, and it wasn't just Baker who gave that guarantee. Other countries, like Germany, did as well.

The facts are quite simple, WE gave Russia a guarantee and then we reneged on it. 

[Dougie93]

20 minutes ago, myata said:

You've got it, no moral anymore.

the higher morality is in preventing a thermonuclear war

which is not an exact science

[User]

40 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

James Baker was the secretary of state, dummy. 3rd-highest ranking American politician and the country's primary representative to foreign countries. 

The Sec of State absolutely holds a high enough office that their representations are that of America, and it wasn't just Baker who gave that guarantee. Other countries, like Germany, did as well.

The facts are quite simple, WE gave Russia a guarantee and then we reneged on it. 

OMG, you really are a stooge for Putin. 

The facts are quite simple, negotiations are negotiations, until it is a formal agreement, it was just a discussion. 

This is nothing more than Russian propaganda Putin uses to try to justify the invasion of Ukraine. NATO had been expanding East since its inception and after that meeting as well. 

There was never any agreement not to move East. 

And again, even James Baker said as much after this, that he was over his skis and didn't have that authority to ever make such a promise. 

 

 

[myata]

47 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the higher morality is in preventing a thermonuclear war

But you already made your choice. You will justify submitting to the thugs to please them, in the hope that they would behave themselves that they surely will not, in the full knowledge that you can't and wouldn't stand to them. And when the world is run by thugs with nukes as a direct consequence of your cowardice disguised only thinly as wisdom, would it be a safer one? Don't even dream. There's no wisdom in cowering to the thugs - only weakness and cowardice.

[Nationalist]

19 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

RFK? The guy that took a whale head off a beach, strapped it on his cars roof  and drove onto the city knows more???

"

describes how he watched a nearby car hit and kill a bear cub while on a day trip hunting with a falcon.

"He said he initially wanted to take the dead animal home and skin it. After his schedule changed, he decided to discard the carcass in New York City’s Central Park – along with an old bicycle, in an effort to make it look like a cycling accident."

"eposition Kennedy said doctors found a dead worm in his brain, which contributed to memory loss and mental fog. "

"

Kennedy’s dark past that included an accusation that he sexually assaulted a family babysitter. Eliza Cooney alleged that in 1998, when she was 23, Kennedy came up behind her in the kitchen pantry and groped her breasts. On another occasion, a shirtless Kennedy allegedly asked her to rub lotion on his back.

The crazy part is that Kennedy did not deny the allegations. “Listen,” he responsed on a podcast, “I’ve said this from the beginning. I’m not a church boy."

and there is a lot more....

 

And you westconman are using him as credible source of information....

I think the low IQ dipshit is you.. the one that hero worships RFK and get information form him LOL

 

Lol...Flyer...why don't you address the message instead of attacking the messenger?

Answer: because that's all you got.

[Nationalist]

19 hours ago, User said:

This is bogus garbage. NATO never made any such commitment. Holy crap, this is all just one big mess of lies from there. 

Just total garbage. 

 

 

Yet it continues to come up.

You can deny this all you like but "officially" nobody denied that the deal was made. Just that it was never in print.

Edited September 8 by Nationalist

[User]

31 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Yet it continues to come up.

You can deny this all you like but "officially" nobody denied that the deal was made. Just that it was never in print.

There was no deal to deny. This is just awful circular logic. The fact that you and other Putin propagandists keep pushing this is not evidence of it being anything more than a stupid point you and others keep pushing. 

[WestCanMan]

18 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

James Baker had no authority to promise anything

President Bush never promised anything

the Congress never legislated anything

the Evil Empire finally collapsed under its own weight

America  never legislating anything in the wake, not did America sign any treaties

what you are invoking, is all myth

What's the point of having a Secretary of State go around and talk to people and talk on TV if their word is meaningless?

It seems like Tory Nuland's political appointments in Ukraine all got their allotted jobs. 

The VP is only 1 level up from Sec State, and Biden was able to order the Ukrainian gov't to fire their top prosecutor, and Biden even claims to have selected the new one. 

Also, the US wasn't the only top NATO country to make such assurances.

AND EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE WORD OF BAKER AND THOSE OF THE LEADERS FROM OTHER NATO NATIONS DIDN'T MEAN SQUAT... just take my word for this: if Russia organized a coup in Canada, appointed the new leaders of our gov't, and then Canada went to join a military alliance with Russia, China, NoKo and Iran, the US would invade us and seize full control of Ottawa instantly. The timeline would go like this: our new PM would say something stupid on TV, and by the time you could make yourself a bowl of popcorn, the star-spangled banner would be flying over the HoC. Book it. 

The Ukrainian war was ABSOLUTELY instigated by the US and Putin is in now way to blame. You can pretend that's not the case, but you'll be lying. 

[Nationalist]

7 minutes ago, User said:

There was no deal to deny. This is just awful circular logic. The fact that you and other Putin propagandists keep pushing this is not evidence of it being anything more than a stupid point you and others keep pushing. 

Ya ya yaaa...

Look even Baker admitted what he agreed to.

All you do is accused people expressing the truth, of being some sort of Russian spy. It's not shutting out truth.

[User]

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What's the point of having a Secretary of State go around and talk to people and talk on TV if their word is meaningless?

Negotiations are just that. Until an actual deal is signed and agreed to, they hold no weight. 

9 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The Ukrainian war was ABSOLUTELY instigated by the US and Putin is in now way to blame. You can pretend that's not the case, but you'll be lying. 

Putin is no way to blame?! He is the one who invaded a sovereign country. 

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Ya ya yaaa...

Look even Baker admitted what he agreed to.

All you do is accused people expressing the truth, of being some sort of Russian spy. It's not shutting out truth.

No, he didn't. He admitted he was outside the scope of his authority... nothing was ever formally agreed to. 

There is no truth to your repeated lies of trying to frame this as an actual formal deal that was in anyway binding. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, User said:

OMG, you really are a stooge for Putin. 

The facts are quite simple, negotiations are negotiations, until it is a formal agreement, it was just a discussion. 

This is nothing more than Russian propaganda Putin uses to try to justify the invasion of Ukraine. NATO had been expanding East since its inception and after that meeting as well. 

There was never any agreement not to move East. 

Listen dummy, I get that our gov't is going to run with propaganda during a war. They'd be stupid if they weren't. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe it.

You can even call this a strategic victory if you want, because America forced Russia into a war which America is "winning":

1. The American military industrial complex is making money hand over fist
2. Russia is using up weapons and losing vehicles and firing expensive missile and Russian soldiers are dying
3. No American soldiers or civilians are dying
4. just tens or hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are dying.

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, User said:

Negotiations are just that. Until an actual deal is signed and agreed to, they hold no weight. 

Putin is no way to blame?! He is the one who invaded a sovereign country. 

No, he didn't. He admitted he was outside the scope of his authority... nothing was ever formally agreed to. 

There is no truth to your repeated lies of trying to frame this as an actual formal deal that was in anyway binding. 

Blah blah blah...

The Russians were definitely naive and got what they asked for. But this is an obvious political slime move by the Americans and NATO. It's even possible the Russians knew it was all bullshit, but couldn't do anything about it at the time.

Nothing in international politics happens by accident. Baker knew it was bullshit when he made the statement I'd venture.

When you deny facts, truth and honesty like this, you become no better than robo-dweeb.

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Listen dummy, I get that our gov't is going to run with propaganda during a war. They'd be stupid if they weren't. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe it.

You can even call this a strategic victory if you want, because America forced Russia into a war which America is "winning":

1. The American military industrial complex is making money hand over fist
2. Russia is using up weapons and losing vehicles and firing expensive missile and Russian soldiers are dying
3. No American soldiers or civilians are dying
4. just tens or hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are dying.

3. Not really true. There are a lot of Americans fighting in this war.

4. Hundreds by all accounts.

[User]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Listen dummy, I get that our gov't is going to run with propaganda during a war.

You are the one pushing the pro-Russia/Putin propaganda here to justify a Russian invasion. 

17 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You can even call this a strategic victory if you want, because America forced Russia into a war

No one forced Russia into anything. 

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Lol...Flyer...why don't you address the message instead of attacking the messenger?

Answer: because that's all you got.

How can anyone take a person serious when they invoke RFK LOL

Are you implying you are the messenger... of RFK's weirdness?

I only pointed out how weird RFK is, by his and his own familys admission LOL

What I got is enough smarts and intelligence to never invoke RFK as a person with knowledge. LOL

Edited September 8 by ExFlyer

[User]

11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Blah blah blah...

The Russians were definitely naive and got what they asked for. But this is an obvious political slime move by the Americans and NATO. It's even possible the Russians knew it was all bullshit, but couldn't do anything about it at the time.

There was nothing to think was bullshit. The Russians agreed to a formal deal that did not include any of that language. 

11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

When you deny facts, truth and honesty like this, you become no better than robo-dweeb.

You are the one ignoring that Baker himself said he didn't have that authority and the formal deal agreed to by the Russians included no such language. 

But yeah, this is where you cry about being accused of being Pro-Russia and cheering them on as you are here making excuses to justify their invasion... 

 

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

How can anyone take a person serious when they invoke RFK LOL

Are you implying you are the messenger... of RFK's weirdness?

I only pointed out how weird RFK is, by his and his own familys admission LOL

What I got is enough smarts and intelligence to never invoke RFK as a person with knowledge. LOL

I think RFK is a very knowledgeable person. As a Kennedy, he is privy to inside info. His family are devout Libbies. The Libbies screwed RFK. 

I think I'll give more credence to RFK...thank you very much.

[Nationalist]

28 minutes ago, User said:

There was nothing to think was bullshit. The Russians agreed to a formal deal that did not include any of that language. 

You are the one ignoring that Baker himself said he didn't have that authority and the formal deal agreed to by the Russians included no such language. 

But yeah, this is where you cry about being accused of being Pro-Russia and cheering them on as you are here making excuses to justify their invasion... 

 

I have never justified the Russian invasion. 

I do have the intellect and honesty to know there are 2 sides to every war. I will never just wave my flag at the expense of reality.

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

What's the point of having a Secretary of State go around and talk to people and talk on TV if their word is meaningless?

It seems like Tory Nuland's political appointments in Ukraine all got their allotted jobs. 

The VP is only 1 level up from Sec State, and Biden was able to order the Ukrainian gov't to fire their top prosecutor, and Biden even claims to have selected the new one. 

Also, the US wasn't the only top NATO country to make such assurances.

AND EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE WORD OF BAKER AND THOSE OF THE LEADERS FROM OTHER NATO NATIONS DIDN'T MEAN SQUAT... just take my word for this: if Russia organized a coup in Canada, appointed the new leaders of our gov't, and then Canada went to join a military alliance with Russia, China, NoKo and Iran, the US would invade us and seize full control of Ottawa instantly. The timeline would go like this: our new PM would say something stupid on TV, and by the time you could make yourself a bowl of popcorn, the star-spangled banner would be flying over the HoC. Book it. 

The Ukrainian war was ABSOLUTELY instigated by the US and Putin is in now way to blame. You can pretend that's not the case, but you'll be lying. 

if the Russians don't got it on paper, they got nothing

if America signed some sort of agreement with them, they could produce those documents

where is the treaty wherein America agreed to prop their empire up for them ?

the Soviet Union and assoicated Warsaw Pact collapsed under its own weight

when was the summit wherein America agreed to cut them slack,  and what is that treaty called ?

because the last time America met with the Soviets was at Iceland in 1986

and the Soviets did in fact reject America's proposals therein

to wit, if the Soviets wanted to cut a deal, they had their chance, but simply refused to take it

the idea that America is in any way bound to some "promise" made to the Soviets ?

that's an urban myth

the Soviet Communist dictatorship blew itself up

America doesn't owe the KGB one single thing

if they want to have a nuclear war about it ?

let them come, the TRIAD will retaliate as necessary

same old, same old Balance of Terror at 15 minutes notice to launch on warning

if the Russians escalate to the high seas, perhaps America will want to parley

but so far they are just beating up on the Ukrainians

no reason for America to capitulate in any way at that juncture

it's not like America is forcing the Ukrainians to fight

we know from Vietnam that America can't actually force anybody to fight

if / when the Ukrainians want to sue for an armistice, let's cross that bridge when we get there

frankly, a stalemate is entirely to America's advantage

Edited September 8 by Dougie93

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I think RFK is a very knowledgeable person. As a Kennedy, he is privy to inside info. His family are devout Libbies. The Libbies screwed RFK. 

I think I'll give more credence to RFK...thank you very much.

RFK is knowledgeable??? That says a lot about you LOL

His own family is not supporting him LOL. https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/16/politics/robert-f-kennedy-family-biden-2024/index.html

 

Yup, of course you think RFK is legitimate...you are a Trumpian LOL

Like I said, ypur support of RFK says a lot about you...too much about you LOL

 

 

 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, User said:

You are the one pushing the pro-Russia/Putin propaganda here to justify a Russian invasion. 

Answer this question honestly: if Canada tried to sign on to a military alliance with China, Russia, NoKo and Iran, what do you think the US would do?

Answering ^that^ correctly doesn't require a whole lot of historical knowledge, you just need to have an IQ over 40 to get that one right. What would the US do, dummy? 

[robosmith]

6 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

James Baker was the secretary of state, dummy. 3rd-highest ranking American politician and the country's primary representative to foreign countries. 

The Sec of State absolutely holds a high enough office that their representations are that of America, and it wasn't just Baker who gave that guarantee. Other countries, like Germany, did as well.

The facts are quite simple, WE gave Russia a guarantee and then we reneged on it. 

Russia gave Ukraine a security guarantee IN WRITING (unlike your alleged verbal commitment) along with the US, in the Budapest Memorandum. Russia reneged and WE are KEEPING OUR COMMITMENT by coming to Ukraine's defense AS PROMISED.

Your ALLEGED verbal promises aren't worth the paper they WERE NOT written on.

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I think RFK is a very knowledgeable person. As a Kennedy, he is privy to inside info. His family are devout Libbies. The Libbies screwed RFK. 

I think I'll give more credence to RFK...thank you very much.

RFK JNR's WORM must have EATEN YOU BRAIN. LMAO

[robosmith]

11 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Answer this question honestly: if Canada tried to sign on to a military alliance with China, Russia, NoKo and Iran, what do you think the US would do?

Answering ^that^ correctly doesn't require a whole lot of historical knowledge, you just need to have an IQ over 40 to get that one right. What would the US do, dummy? 

YOU would be kicked out of NATO.

[WestCanMan]

51 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

if the Russians don't got it on paper, they got nothing

• U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).

1. As you can see, they don't "got nothing".
2. The US doesn't have any assurances on paper from China, NoKo, Iran and Russia about them not signing off on military alliances with Canada and Mexico. That being said, if Canada and Mexico attempt to enter into a military alliance  with those countries, what do you think the US will do? If the US attacks under those circumstances, do you think that's an example of "the US going on an empire-building spree"? Would you say that the US attacked for that specific reason?

I know US propaganda when I see it. You do too. 

All of the blood from these dead Ukrainians is on Biden's hands, and no one else's. He's the one who was sitting in the big boy chair when this went down.