Women's Olympic Boxing

[CouchPotato]

42 minutes ago, Boges said:

Would you estimate a women like Serena Williams has more testosterone than a Justine Henin? 

 

Perhaps. I mean individuals do have different testosterone levels than others. Things are relative. But to totally dismiss any conversation over this sort of thing is pretty ridiculous. Does Serena Williams have a condition which makes her testosterone so high that she ought to be in a different league?

The OP has admitted that this particular case is a bit muddy given that the boxer is not actually a man.

There is a reason we put men in different leagues than women in the first place. There is a reason we put people of different ages or weight classes in different leagues.  We do make decisions like this based on advantages and physical differences, even though to some extent you could argue that they are relative. We do this for the sake of a safety as well maintaining a reasonable level of competitiveness.

What is the point to having women's boxing when a woman can't last an entire minute against this person? She is an experienced female boxer. She made it to the Olympics. She says she has never felt a punch like that before. Do you not see the obvious detrimental effects this can have on women's sports?

Edited August 2, 2024 by CouchPotato

[WestCanMan]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well you seem to be listening to my opinion, so I guess I have some impact. 

Unfortunately about 50% of what's said in public places comes from people like you, who lack clear, unbiased, intelligent, and fair opinions. It's not important to listen to you, but it is important to lay the things that you say to rest.

 

Bottom line: Sports are important because exercise and competition are important in the development of healthy humans. For that reason, women's sports are important. Taking women's sports away is like saying that women and women's health issues don't matter at all. 

[Black Dog]

20 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

You should read my link. People with this abnormality are genetically male, but appear to be female. 

So that's all it means to be a woman then: genetics?

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If they have male levels of testosterone, they will have male levels of muscle development.

Incorrect. Androgens (the hormone people with this condition don't respond to) is what triggers muscle development. 

Quote

Just like putting LeBron in the WNBA isn't fair, it isn't fair to have women with male testosterone competing in women's sports.

Women with male testosterone aren't men though, so you analogy sucks.

[impartialobserver]

The boxer was born female and alert, alert... she comes from Algeria where being trans is illegal. This is what happens when you wait, do some research, take time to think, etc instead of reflexively reacting  and doing so emotionally. 

[Black Dog]

5 minutes ago, CouchPotato said:

What is the point to having women's boxing when a woman can't last an entire minute against this person?

You know this person has lost several times to other women, right? This isn't a clear cut case of someone absolutely dominating the competition because of their genetic advantages.

Quote

Do you not see the obvious detrimental effects this can have on women's sports?

Do you not see how narrowly policing the boundaries of who is a woman based on physical appearance or rare conditions where someone has elevated hormone levels is detrimental to women in general?

Edited August 2, 2024 by Black Dog

[robosmith]

54 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

 Not at the same level as men. In fact, women have very low levels compared to men:

Testosterone Levels in Men vs. Women

Normal testosterone levels are usually described as:

300–1,000 ng/dL for men

So, yes, a test would be a valid way to determine if a woman has a comparative, biological advantage due to a genetic abnormality.

You said:

1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said:

Women's sports should be limited to people that are born female and have no testosterone. If they have this 46, XY DSD, they should be required to take testosterone suppression treatments.

The FACT is some women have naturally higher levels of testosterone, and some men have naturally low levels.

Your FAUX issue is ridiculous.

50 minutes ago, Boges said:

Would you estimate a women like Serena Williams 

has more testosterone than a Justine Henin? 

You can get higher levels just by working out a lot.

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said:

I'm not sure why we don't have a thread on this. There has been a lot of controversy over two boxers in the women's event, that are men.

It is clear cut, women and men are not on the same level physically and women should not fight with men in any situation. It is dangerous.

But, allow me to muddy the water. Apparently both boxers have a genetic mutation called 46, XY DSD:

“Morris syndrome is now called 46,XY DSD: androgen insensitivity syndrome. These people have an extremely high level of testosterone and other male sex hormones, but the testosterone does not affect the foetal cells that usually develop into male sexual organs because of a mutation in the androgen receptor gene. These people therefore have male chromosomes but are women socially and in external appearance. They do not have internal female sexual organs, and they form testicles that remain concealed in the abdominal cavity.”

That is a lot harder to parse, in my opinion. They are women in their lives because they have every aspect of a women. Some can even get pregnant and have kids. But they are enjoying a lot of the physical advantages that men have because they produce testosterone at a higher level.

I'll throw this out for the debate: Women's sports should be limited to people that are born female and have no testosterone. If they have this 46, XY DSD, they should be required to take testosterone suppression treatments.

Wait… what?

You guys have been telling us over and over that there are only two genders.  Now there are other genders? 

[CouchPotato]

2 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Wait… what?

You guys have been telling us over and over that there are only two genders.  Now there are other genders? 

A rare genetic anomaly is not a gender.

[gatomontes99]

9 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

1. So that's all it means to be a woman then: genetics?

2. Incorrect. Androgens (the hormone people with this condition don't respond to) is what triggers muscle development. 

3. Women with male testosterone aren't men though, so you analogy sucks.

1. Yes. It is called science

2. Testosterone is an androgen.

3. Yes they are. But they have a genetic abnormality that prevents male genitalia from forming.

[Rebound]

Just now, CouchPotato said:

A rare genetic anomaly is not a gender.

So you’re saying some people are neither male nor female? 

Just now, gatomontes99 said:

1. Yes. It is called science

2. Testosterone is an androgen.

3. Yes they are. But they have a genetic abnormality that prevents male genitalia from forming.

Some athletes have genetic abnormalities which make them very tall. Michael Phelps has abnormalities which make him an extraordinary swimmer. 
 

[Goddess]

[Black Dog]

3 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

1. Yes. It is called science

2. Testosterone is an androgen.

3. Yes they are. But they have a genetic abnormality that prevents male genitalia from forming.

They don't go through male puberty in the same way, they don't develop male sex organs, they don't develop male musculature.

Hell your entire link is about  the higher than expected number of people who go through life not even knowing they have this condition.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2024 by Black Dog

[robosmith]

22 minutes ago, Hodad said:

This comes up every Olympic cycle, and there is usually a lot of misinformation to go with the misplaced outrage.

I wont' pretend to know the medical situation of the specific athletes in question, but regarding the OP, people with Morris syndrome can't become pregnant. They don't have the parts.  But they also don't have usable testosterone. Androgen insensitivity is core of the mutation to begin with. If they were able to use testosterone they would have developed as males in utero. In fact, typical women have far more usable testosterone. 

So testosterone doesn't really seem to be the issue at all. IIRC, there was a large study of elite athletes connected to this topic a few years back and, surprisingly, testosterone didn't seem to have any direct correlation with elite athletic ability. A lot of the male athletes had abnormally low testosterone and a some of the women had high testosterone. 

But, women with androgen insensitivity (and indeed, they have been women all their lives) are overrepresented in elite athletics, so there is seemingly some other advantage being conferred, even if it's not testosterone. 

But in any case, it's not a new phenomenon. Women with and without AIS have been competing as long as there have been women's sports. Some win and some lose. Those with AIS clearly don't have an unbeatable advantage or anything. It's NOT like competing against men or even someone who developed as a male and then transitioned.

 

What I find interesting about this topic is that it forces people to come face-to-face with the reality of a gender spectrum. There's a lot of chemistry going on in our bodies that makes us who we are, and a huge spectrum across most of it, much of which we don't entirely understand. I know people are, by nature, reductive. We like simple, binary situations that don't make us think too much. But every time this topic comes up it rather forces the issue. Thinking must occur. And in that thinking process people are more inclined to make room in the world, society and sport for our fellow humans.

Except for right wingers who have a natural aversion to thinking and a strong affinity to simplistic binarism. LMAO

[gatomontes99]

2 minutes ago, Rebound said:

So you’re saying some people are neither male nor female? 

Some athletes have genetic abnormalities which make them very tall. Michael Phelps has abnormalities which make him an extraordinary swimmer. 
 

We arent talking about differences among one sex. We are talking about the differences between two genders. The people with this abnormality lack the male genitalia that should have formed as a result of the  chromosomes they carry. They are actually male.

[robosmith]

18 minutes ago, CouchPotato said:

Perhaps. I mean individuals do have different testosterone levels than others. Things are relative. But to totally dismiss any conversation over this sort of thing is pretty ridiculous. Does Serena Williams have a condition which makes her testosterone so high that she ought to be in a different league?

The OP has admitted that this particular case is a bit muddy given that the boxer is not actually a man.

There is a reason we put men in different leagues than women in the first place. There is a reason we put people of different ages or weight classes in different leagues.  We do make decisions like this based on advantages and physical differences, even though to some extent you could argue that they are relative. We do this for the sake of a safety as well maintaining a reasonable level of competitiveness.

What is the point to having women's boxing when a woman can't last an entire minute against this person? She is an experienced female boxer. She made it to the Olympics. She says she has never felt a punch like that before. Do you not see the obvious detrimental effects this can have on women's sports?

What is YOUR role in what "we" have? I'd say just CASUAL OBSERVER. Or maybe not so casual outrage. LMAO

[CouchPotato]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

What is YOUR role in what "we" have? I'd say just CASUAL OBSERVER. Or maybe not so casual outrage. LMAO

I am not claiming that I make decisions, but I don't see anything wrong with using the word "we". If you would prefer I could rewrite the post and say "society" or something like that. 

[robosmith]

8 minutes ago, CouchPotato said:

A rare genetic anomaly is not a gender.

In fact if it makes you feel like neither a man nor a woman, then it IS something else.

[CouchPotato]

4 minutes ago, robosmith said:

In fact if it makes you feel like neither a man nor a woman, then it IS something else.

Feelings have nothing to do with reality. If a schizophrenic feels he was born on Pluto and was sent here to be our messiah it does not make it so.

Edited August 2, 2024 by CouchPotato

[robosmith]

8 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You  forgot to post a link to your "story."

[Black Dog]

9 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

We arent talking about differences among one sex. We are talking about the differences between two genders.

gender isn't sex btw

Quote

The people with this abnormality lack the male genitalia that should have formed as a result of the  chromosomes they carry. They are actually male.

Worth noting again we don't actually know if this individual has this alleged genetic condition.

[robosmith]

Just now, CouchPotato said:

Feelings have nothing to do with reality. If a schizophrenic feels he was born on Pluto it does not make it so.

It does when the issue is STATE of MIND. Do you not know there are male brains AND female brains?

Quote

 

How men's and women's brains are different | Stanford Medicine

Stanford Medicine Magazine

https://stanmed.stanford.edu › how-mens-and-womens-...

 

 

 

 

May 22, 2017 — In general, brain regions that differ in size between men and women (such as the amygdala and the hippocampus) tend to contain especially high .

Quote

Battle of the Brain: Men Vs. Women [Infographic]

Northwestern Medicine

https://www.nm.org › HealthBeat › Healthy Tips

 

 

 

 

Search for: Is there a difference in male and female brains?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[User]

13 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

The boxer was born female and alert, alert... she comes from Algeria where being trans is illegal. This is what happens when you wait, do some research, take time to think, etc instead of reflexively reacting  and doing so emotionally. 

Well, this is not quite the full story either. 

This looks like she might be intersex. In that she has all the characteristics of a female, but has male chromosomes and likely increased testosterone as well. 

So, no, she is not just a female or trans, but this is still an example for what being trans would be just as bad or wrong. 

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, User said:

Well, this is not quite the full story either. 

This looks like she might be intersex. In that she has all the characteristics of a female, but has male chromosomes and likely increased testosterone as well. 

So, no, she is not just a female or trans, but this is still an example for what being trans would be just as bad or wrong. 

Do you have some factual data.. actual medical tests? If not, your speculation is of no value. Lots of women have higher than average testosterone... does not make them male. 

[Goddess]

15 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You  forgot to post a link to your "story."

Here you go.  Although you've already decided there is no truth to it and that I just invented a "story".

Boxer leaves ring in tears after second Olympic fighter who failed gender test wins (msn.com)

Edited August 2, 2024 by Goddess

[User]

4 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Do you have some factual data.. actual medical tests? If not, your speculation is of no value. Lots of women have higher than average testosterone... does not make them male. 

I always have the receipts for what I say here, if I don't I will admit it. 

"Addressing Lin and Khelif's exclusions in 2023, the IBA's president, Umar Kremlev, said that gender and testorone tests "proved they had XY chromosomes (Y is the male chromosome)." However, neither Lin nor Khelif identify as transgender or intersex."
https://www.newsweek.com/olympic-boxer-lin-yu-ting-win-imane-khelif-1933862