Boeing Crashes Planes and Kills 243M Fine. Trump Pays Back Loan On Property 350M Fine.

[User]

No seriously... but there is no lawfare going on here. 

Trump ordered to pay over $350M for business fraud

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/16/trump-fraud-case-verdict-350-million-00141990#:~:text=NEW YORK — The judge overseeing,to obtain favorable rates from

vs

The plea deal, which still must receive the approval of a federal judge to take effect, calls for Boeing to pay an additional $243.6 million fine.

https://apnews.com/article/boeing-guilty-plea-crashes-245a38dc6d3082f4ddff1f6f74f274f2 

[robosmith]

1 minute ago, User said:

No seriously... but there is no lawfare going on here. 

 

Because you don't know the difference between purposeful BANK FRAUD and accidental causes of death?

That's cause you've STILL not read NY state laws covering BANK FRAUD. 

㊙️ all you have to do is LIE on the application; it doesn't matter whether anyone suffered harm or not.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Because you don't know the difference between purposeful BANK FRAUD and accidental causes of death?

That's cause you've STILL not read NY state laws covering BANK FRAUD. 

㊙️ all you have to do is LIE on the application; it doesn't matter whether anyone suffered harm or not.

Apperently Robo doesn't know what negligence is and the banks say they weren't defrauded. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, robosmith said:

accidental causes of death?

Seriously?

This was deliberate.

Their MCAS system was designed and knowingly released while being faulty and due to timelines, specialized training wasn't offered to pilots. 

Once the aircraft "overtook" a pilots corrections, it was too late. You now had an incorrectly stalling aircraft, with poorly trained pilots on what to do.

This is criminal levels of deliberate negligence.

 

 

[robosmith]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously?

This was deliberate.

Their MCAS system was designed and knowingly released while being faulty and due to timelines, specialized training wasn't offered to pilots. 

Once the aircraft "overtook" a pilots corrections, it was too late. You now had an incorrectly stalling aircraft, with poorly trained pilots on what to do.

This is criminal levels of deliberate negligence.

No it isn't. You just don't know the levels of incompetence at Boeing management. I do, cause I worked there (not airliners) for 2 years. The most disorganized company I ever worked for. Monopoly in action.

Boeing accepts a plea deal to avoid a criminal trial over 737 Max crashes, Justice Department says

Both are CIVIL VIOLATIONS. Duh

[User]

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

Because you don't know the difference between purposeful BANK FRAUD and accidental causes of death?

That's cause you've STILL not read NY state laws covering BANK FRAUD. 

㊙️ all you have to do is LIE on the application; it doesn't matter whether anyone suffered harm or not.

The point, is that even if Trump were guilty (he is not) his punishment for evaluating his properties to get loans he paid back... is more than Boeing for crashing planes and killing people. 

 

8 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Both are CIVIL VIOLATIONS. Duh

Read the headline you just quoted here... for crying out loud, you can't possibly be this dishonest. 

[gatomontes99]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Seriously?

This was deliberate.

Their MCAS system was designed and knowingly released while being faulty and due to timelines, specialized training wasn't offered to pilots. 

Once the aircraft "overtook" a pilots corrections, it was too late. You now had an incorrectly stalling aircraft, with poorly trained pilots on what to do.

This is criminal levels of deliberate negligence.

 

 

100% incorrect. I'm a captain on a 737 and I'm telling you that the MCAS system was a piece of cake to override. The reason both accidents happened over seas is because their training and standards are sh1t.

Air Malaysia, for example, bought an improperly and uncertified AOA vane. They then installed it incorrectly. That airplane flew for over a month with pilots reporting the fault to the mechanics. The mechanics would "pencil whip" it and send it flying again. The pilots would keep flying it because the airline wouldn't pay the crew if the flight didn't go. The guys that crashed the airplane were told the stall warning was continuously alerting from takeoff to touchdown on the previous flight. The mechanic "pencil whipped" it. During the takeoff roll, the pilots got the stall warning well before the reject speed. They flew anyway. The captain called for the immediate action items, but neither pilot knew them. It was one switch. They just had to turn off one switch. The captain asked for the first officer to run the checklist, he couldn't find it because the checklist was in English and his English wasn't good enough. The captain asked the FO to fly. While the captain was looking for the checklist the FO crashed. The country of Malaysia investigate their state owned airline and their fellow countrymen and determined that the big, bad American company was to blame. $$$

To be fair, the system had a single point of failure and lacked redundancy. They fixed that. But we were given this problem, in flight, in a simulator and it took 10 seconds to diagnose and fix. Literally one switch.

Also, you might find it interesting that the fuselage of the Max that lost a door plug was manufactured in....Malaysia by Spirit Aero. Who used to be in Wichita KS.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You just don't know the levels of incompetence at Boeing management.

Actually, I do. Their levels of incompetence have caused their company to come under intense scrutiny.

Many employees have openly stated when and how this degradation has occurred.

Several deadly crashes occurred before they decided to do a thing about it. The latter highlights the incompetence on a global scale.

The fact they took a deal to avoid more serious charges, doesn't prove them being any less criminally negligent.

12 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

lacked redundancy.

This is negligence. You're thousands of feel above ground, and you as pilot should know how critical redundancies are for your safety systems.

I know someone who sued a car brand, for getting in a crash while driving far faster than the posted speed limit in a residential area. Hit a light post, and was permanently brain damaged.

The airbags were faulty, and the crash barely would have left him with a scratch if the airbags deployed.

What you're saying, is he is at fault for speeding. Yes, he is. But the car not functioning like it was supposed to during an emergency, is fully the fault of the automaker.

But what am saying, is had their system been designed properly, that this would have easily been corrected during flight. Boeing would have zero responsibility. 

Maybe they aren't fully responsible, but should bear a significant penalty for the lack of oversight.

The car brand ended up having to give nearly half a million to this person for his injuries.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

Also, you might find it interesting that the fuselage of the Max that lost a door plug was manufactured in....Malaysia by Spirit Aero. Who used to be in Wichita KS.

Sounds like cost cutting measures, all while amplifying the pressure on suppliers to build more, faster and cheaper.

They got greedy, and shot themselves in the foot.

Airbus and even potentially other brands may start eating from their pie, based on this incompetence. 

[gatomontes99]

14 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Actually, I do. Their levels of incompetence have caused their company to come under intense scrutiny.

Many employees have openly stated when and how this degradation has occurred.

Several deadly crashes occurred before they decided to do a thing about it. The latter highlights the incompetence on a global scale.

The fact they took a deal to avoid more serious charges, doesn't prove them being any less criminally negligent.

This is negligence. You're thousands of feel above ground, and you as pilot should know how critical redundancies are for your safety systems.

I know someone who sued a car brand, for getting in a crash while driving far faster than the posted speed limit in a residential area. Hit a light post, and was permanently brain damaged.

The airbags were faulty, and the crash barely would have left him with a scratch if the airbags deployed.

What you're saying, is he is at fault for speeding. Yes, he is. But the car not functioning like it was supposed to during an emergency, is fully the fault of the automaker.

But what am saying, is had their system been designed properly, that this would have easily been corrected during flight. Boeing would have zero responsibility. 

Maybe they aren't fully responsible, but should bear a significant penalty for the lack of oversight.

The car brand ended up having to give nearly half a million to this person for his injuries.

Yeah, no. I'm saying both pilots were poorly trained and incapable of doing their job. I'm also saying that the investigation was incestuous. The people that owned the airline and would be financially responsible for their role determined they were not at fault.

As for the system, yes it should have had redundancy. But that system does very little that can't easily be overcome by the crew. And, BTW, it was an updated version of the system on the 737NG. It did the same thing as the system on the older airplanes.

17 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Sounds like cost cutting measures, all while amplifying the pressure on suppliers to build more, faster and cheaper.

They got greedy, and shot themselves in the foot.

Airbus and even potentially other brands may start eating from their pie, based on this incompetence. 

If you knew how many systems were not working on your Airbus, you wouldn't fly on it. They are veey prone to system failures.

[gatomontes99]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

What you're saying, is he is at fault for speeding. Yes, he is. But the car not functioning like it was supposed to during an emergency, is fully the fault of the automaker.

But what am saying, is had their system been designed properly, that this would have easily been corrected during flight. Boeing would have zero responsibility. 

Maybe they aren't fully responsible, but should bear a significant penalty for the lack of oversight.

The car brand ended up having to give nearly half a million to this person for his injuries.

Actually, what I'm saying (to use your example) is the driver removed the airbag system, replaced it with a cheaper, uncertified system, didnt test it to see if it worked, ignored repeated malfunctions and failed to stop at the light while ignoring warning signs and drove off a cliff. But the original design had a slight flaw.

It is interesting that you will argue with me, the expert on the airplane, because the narrative you've been told is so ingrained in your skull.

Edited July 8, 2024 by gatomontes99

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

Actually, what I'm saying (to use your example) is the driver removed the airbag system, replaced it with a cheaper, uncertified system, didnt test it to see if it worked, ignored repeated malfunctions and failed to stop at the light while ignoring warning signs and drove off a cliff. But the original design had a slight flaw.

It is interesting that you will argue with me, the expert on the airplane, because the narrative you've been told is so ingrained in your skull.

And fair enough but they didn't go with a plea deal to avoid criminal charges because they did nothing wrong 

[gatomontes99]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And fair enough but they didn't go with a plea deal to avoid criminal charges because they did nothing wrong 

They were the monster the press was slaying. Who was going to believe them?

There was a lack of redundancy. That was true. But there was a dozen mistakes made by the airline, the supplier and the pilots that would have stopped the whole thing.

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

They were the monster the press was slaying. Who was going to believe them?

 

A judge? If they were able to prove their claims?  I mean seriously. 

Quote

There was a lack of redundancy. That was true. But there was a dozen mistakes made by the airline, the supplier and the pilots that would have stopped the whole thing.

I'm not disputing what you're saying at all. But I do know with certainty that large corporations like that do not do plea deals for that much money unless they believe there is at least some validity to the case against them. Obviously I don't know what specifically that validity would be in this case, But I would find it extremely difficult to believe that they were not substantially guilty of something for the courts to even have been considering criminal charges. That's not something that happens lightly. 

[gatomontes99]

46 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

A judge? If they were able to prove their claims?  I mean seriously. 

I'm not disputing what you're saying at all. But I do know with certainty that large corporations like that do not do plea deals for that much money unless they believe there is at least some validity to the case against them. Obviously I don't know what specifically that validity would be in this case, But I would find it extremely difficult to believe that they were not substantially guilty of something for the courts to even have been considering criminal charges. That's not something that happens lightly. 

That plea was far less than many thought they would pay at trial. They probably did a risk analysis and determined the payout was better than the chance. After all, the "authority" wrote a report blaming them. Every leader of every nation grounded their aircraft. It would have been very difficult to overcome all that.

[WestCanMan]

The unfair fines are not surprising...

Remember when GM's faulty ignitions killed 40+ people before they started recalling them? Recalling them after deaths 35 through 40 somehow wasn't necessary... they had to be sure.... They got a fine of a few hundred million. 

Then VW rigged some of their cars to cheat during emissions tests and they were fined $13,000,000,000 lol. 

American manufacturer kills dozens of people: "Meh."

A bit of pollution: "DESTROY THEM!"

[Nationalist]

This is truly insane and I hope he gets his funds back after the appeal.

[robosmith]

On 7/8/2024 at 8:17 AM, Perspektiv said:

Actually, I do. Their levels of incompetence have caused their company to come under intense scrutiny.

Many employees have openly stated when and how this degradation has occurred.

Several deadly crashes occurred before they decided to do a thing about it. The latter highlights the incompetence on a global scale.

The fact they took a deal to avoid more serious charges, doesn't prove them being any less criminally negligent.

Actually it DOES. The DoJ gave them the deal cause it was unlikely they could PROVE criminal negligence instead of MISTAKES.

[Rebound]

On 7/8/2024 at 2:12 AM, User said:

No seriously... but there is no lawfare going on here. 

Trump ordered to pay over $350M for business fraud

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/16/trump-fraud-case-verdict-350-million-00141990#:~:text=NEW YORK — The judge overseeing,to obtain favorable rates from

vs

The plea deal, which still must receive the approval of a federal judge to take effect, calls for Boeing to pay an additional $243.6 million fine.

https://apnews.com/article/boeing-guilty-plea-crashes-245a38dc6d3082f4ddff1f6f74f274f2 

You’re comparing the penalty assessed after a jury verdict to a plea bargain.  Trump did not accept any plea bargain offers in this case.  In the Trump University fraud case, Donald Trump the Fraudster agreed to a plea and paid out just $25 million.  

[User]

16 minutes ago, Rebound said:

You’re comparing the penalty assessed after a jury verdict to a plea bargain.  Trump did not accept any plea bargain offers in this case.  In the Trump University fraud case, Donald Trump the Fraudster agreed to a plea and paid out just $25 million.  

It was a bench trial. No jury. 

This is a meaningless difference in the absurdity of the consequences here for what was done, regardless of a plea bargain or not. 

 

[Rebound]

19 hours ago, User said:

It was a bench trial. No jury. 

This is a meaningless difference in the absurdity of the consequences here for what was done, regardless of a plea bargain or not. 

 

What legal basis do you have for stating this?

Donald Trump committed many millions of dollars of fraud, over years and years and years.  He’s committed a lot of fraud in his life.  So he defrauded and there are statutory penalties for doing this.  

Boeing made an airplane that crashed.  They still aren’t even sure why.  

[User]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

What legal basis do you have for stating this?

Donald Trump committed many millions of dollars of fraud, over years and years and years.  He’s committed a lot of fraud in his life.  So he defrauded and there are statutory penalties for doing this.  

Boeing made an airplane that crashed.  They still aren’t even sure why.  

Who did he defraud?

He took out loans and paid them back with interest. 

The stupidity of this has always been that the value of something is subjective. If both parties agree on the terms, that the value of a home is X... 

The stupidity of this is that you are here dismissing that hundreds of people died in plane crashes as if that is not a big deal. This isn't even a serious discussion when we do know why they crashed. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about as you didn't even know this was a bench trial either. 

[Fluffypants]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

What legal basis do you have for stating this?

Donald Trump committed many millions of dollars of fraud, over years and years and years.  He’s committed a lot of fraud in his life.  So he defrauded and there are statutory penalties for doing this.  

Boeing made an airplane that crashed.  They still aren’t even sure why.  

He didn't commit fraud he made his valuations based on what he thought they were worth and even had a disclaimer stating that, the banks took those valuations, did their own and made adjustments. He got his interest rates based on banks valuations, not Trumps. So where was the fraud?

All the states claims were BS but you got a hack democrat judge who decided on his own before there was even a trial that he was guilty and the proceedings were just to determine what punishment they were going to give him.

All the trials against Trump will get overturned but justice was never the point. It was to tie him up in court, make him use up all his money fighting it and make it so they can say he was convicted of things.

[Rebound]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:27 AM, User said:

Who did he defraud?

He took out loans and paid them back with interest. 

The stupidity of this has always been that the value of something is subjective. If both parties agree on the terms, that the value of a home is X... 

The stupidity of this is that you are here dismissing that hundreds of people died in plane crashes as if that is not a big deal. This isn't even a serious discussion when we do know why they crashed. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about as you didn't even know this was a bench trial either. 

Trump’s fraud is not connected in any way to airplane crashes.  

On 7/12/2024 at 9:35 AM, Fluffypants said:

He didn't commit fraud he made his valuations based on what he thought they were worth and even had a disclaimer stating that, the banks took those valuations, did their own and made adjustments. He got his interest rates based on banks valuations, not Trumps. So where was the fraud?

All the states claims were BS but you got a hack democrat judge who decided on his own before there was even a trial that he was guilty and the proceedings were just to determine what punishment they were going to give him.

All the trials against Trump will get overturned but justice was never the point. It was to tie him up in court, make him use up all his money fighting it and make it so they can say he was convicted of things.

Explain how Trump “thought” his penthouse was 30,000 square feet when it was only 11,000 square feet. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

Trump’s fraud is not connected in any way to airplane crashes.  

Explain how Trump “thought” his penthouse was 30,000 square feet when it was only 11,000 square feet. 

Explain how the bank didn't ask for verification if it mattered to them.  I go to borrow money as an equity loan, the bank sends someone to survey it. 

So the bank obviously didn't care that much. And they never complained, haven't complained now and say they'll lend him money again.  

Freuqently people complile a package of their assets as a general 'net worth' statement and they keep sending it  out again and again and frequently with errors. 

In my experience a huge percent of the properties on MLS have errors on their square footage. You see cases where they've accidentally included things like the garage and back patio in the living space. 

 

So nobody relied on this info, nobody cared about the info, nobody's complaining about being defrauded and the 'victims' would happily lend to the guy again. 

And you want us to believe this is ANYTHING but an attempt to take out a political rival?