Canada, NATO & Trump

[August1991]

In 1815, in Vienna, an elite got together, met and agreed. Peace.

In 1945 or so, an elite got to together, met and agreed. Peace.

In the 2020s, we need such a sit-down.

 

[CdnFox]

47 minutes ago, August1991 said:

NATO was part of the 1945 Potsdam/Yalta structure of peace.

Like the Congress of Vienna.

And?

1 minute ago, August1991 said:

In 1815, in Vienna, an elite got together, met and agreed. Peace.

In 1945 or so, an elite got to together, met and agreed. Peace.

In the 2020s, we need such a sit-down.

 

There was war aplenty after both meetings of "an elite".   So what are you hoping to resolve?

[August1991]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

And?

There was war aplenty after both meetings of "an elite".   So what are you hoping to resolve?

I disagree.

The events/wars between 1789-1815 were a disaster for ordinary people.

Between 1815-1914, ordinary people generally lived well.

And then, between 1914-1945, ordinary people suffered so much.

====

I fear that our current elite (bureaucrats/diplomats/politicians/etc) are about to create a 1914 situation.

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, August1991 said:

I disagree.

That is historic fact. You can't disagree with it. It's what really happened. It's like disagreeing that the surface of the sun is hot. It's not really up for debate. 

5 minutes ago, August1991 said:

The events/wars between 1789-1815 were a disaster for ordinary people.

Between 1815-1914, ordinary people generally lived well.

There was roughly the same level of violence. The Napoleonic Wars may have gotten a lot of fame, but there were still endless conflicts across the globe between 1815 and 1914. If you do a quick search you will see literally hundreds of conflicts. Some small and some large. Japan and Russia went to war during that time there was all of the Spanish conflicts numerous civil wars, it was not a particularly peaceful time.

Quote

And then, between 1914-1945, ordinary people suffered so much.

Sure. You had two world wars, those are the largest single connected conflicts in the history.

But a lot of people suffered around the world in between those conflicts and after those conflicts too. The Spanish war that everybody jumped in on, vietnam, korea, on and on it goes

So again I will ask what is it you are trying to achieve?

[August1991]

22 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

... but there were still endless conflicts across the globe between 1815 and 1914. If you do a quick search you will see literally hundreds of conflicts. Some small and some large. Japan and Russia went to war during that time there was all of the Spanish conflicts numerous civil wars, it was not a particularly peaceful time.

...

 

True. Between 1815 and 1914 there were conflicts. (I have wondered about 1848, stability and Russia/Austria-Hungary.)

But ordinary people lived largely in peace during this time.

====

In the summer of 1914, the life of ordinary people radically changed.

NIxon was  born in 1913.

Kennedy in 1917.

Trudeau Snr in 1919.

====

Brezhnev in 1906. Andropov in 1914.

Reagan in 1911.

As children. they remembered the outbreak of August 1914.

Edited July 4, 2024 by August1991

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

True. Between 1815 and 1914 there were conflicts. (I have wondered about 1848, stability and Russia/Austria-Hungary.)

But ordinary people lived largely in peace during this time.

Ordinary people died in these conflicts the same as ordinary people do in every conflict. the russian japan war killed about 150,000 people as well as 20,000 chinese who weren't even involved in that fight.  And that's just one of the conflicts. 

You seem to have an idealic misunderstanding about the conflicts of that era. I assure you if you look back in history you'll find it was a time of unrest, violence, conflict and civilian death. Which is pretty much the same for any other era as well.

Hence the old joke that peace is a theoretical state whose existence we postulate because there are occasionally pauses between wars.

[August1991]

32 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ordinary people died in these conflicts the same as ordinary people do in every conflict.

....

Every conflict? Economic crisis?

The conflicts/panics between 1914-1945 were markedly different from any conflict before.

You have to go back to 1789-1815 to see such an upheaval.

=====

Kennedy was born in 1917. When deciding what to do in 1962, he read Tuchman's "The Guns of August".

For Trudeau Snr and Kissinger, the collapse of Austria-Hungary - the events of 1914 - was a pre-occupation.

 

Edited July 4, 2024 by August1991

[CdnFox]

39 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Every conflict? Economic crisis?

 

An economic crisis is not a conflict. 

Quote

The conflicts/panics between 1914-1945 were markedly different from any conflict before.

not really. Technologically a little but other than that, not so much. 

You're just babbling nonsense at this point. 

You realize it seriously erodes your credibility when you insist things are true that are easily demonstrably and verifiably not true right?

You need to read some history. 

And you still can't answer the simple question asked of you multiple times now. 

[Army Guy]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:23 PM, August1991 said:

Many Canadians (French, English, whatever) don't like Trump. Often, these English-Canadians don't like America - CBC, Atwood, NDP etc.

Yet these same Canadians think that NATO is a good thing. They want Ukraine to join NATO.

What if Trump (or someone like him -Nixon, Reagan...) is elected US President?

=====

To me, NATO was an arrangement to defeat the Soviet Union. As Reagan said, we won.

We no longer need NATO.

Nowadays, despite what Trump says, NATO is a way to make Canadians taxpayers buy military equipment made in the US.

 

Here we go again , August's obsession with NATO..and how it is no longer valid...NATO like any organization grows and changes with time, NATO is now being turned into a more global organization, that now grows to meet other threats in the globe such as china, other dictators, the middle east...etc...

Ukraine is not joining NATO anytime soon, it might be able to get into the european union, but not NATO, not for a while...

With the globe full of threats why would you feel the need to get rid of one organization that polices the globe...and if it has a proven record of as you say defeating the warsaw pact, during the cold war, without firing a shot, why would we not use it...

most people who advocate to dismantle NATO normally have no clue what NATO offers to all of it's membership..benefits that that reach into other organizations such as the UN, and many others...we no longer need NATO would be akin to Canada saying we no longer need Quebec...it is a bad idea to part ways with something that is working...

I think this has already been explain to you, what US made weapons we do buy is becasue they make the best on the market, such as the F-18, griffon helos, chinooks,  but Canadian military uses tanks from germany, IFV from switzerland, Supply ships designs from Germany, frigates designs from the UK, small arms from Belgium, SMP trucks from germany, Italy and france the list goes on...maybe a 1/3 of our military kit is from the US...your statement is false... 

 

[PIK]

And Trudeau canceled the standing offer with 2 Canadian manufacturers making 155 ml shells. Trudeau thought we didn't need a stable supply of ammunition.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, PIK said:

Trudeau thought

That seems very very unlikely. 

[Army Guy]

14 hours ago, PIK said:

And Trudeau canceled the standing offer with 2 Canadian manufacturers making 155 ml shells. Trudeau thought we didn't need a stable supply of ammunition.

US is now pumping 1.5 billion dollars into several nations ammo manufacture capacity...including Canada's manufacturers to send ammo to Ukraine...bullets we don't need any stinking bullets..

[August1991]

On 7/5/2024 at 8:45 AM, Army Guy said:

Here we go again , August's obsession with NATO..and how it is no longer valid...NATO like any organization grows and changes with time, NATO is now being turned into a more global organization, that now grows to meet other threats in the globe such as china, other dictators, the middle east...etc...

...

NATO was designed (like SEATO) to achieve two things: a) confront Marxism (world hegemony of an ideology) and b) restrict Stalinism/Soviet Union.

Since the 1990s, we face neither problem.

But Army Guy, in these 2020s, our various world players seriously need a new sustainable structure of peace. IMHO, NATO is not a part of the picture.

At present, NATO is just a way to force foreigners to buy US-made military equipment. It is mercantilism at the dumbest level.

 

[August1991]

On 7/5/2024 at 8:38 AM, CdnFox said:

An economic crisis is not a conflict. 

not really. Technologically a little but other than that, not so much. 

You're just babbling nonsense at this point. 

You realize it seriously erodes your credibility when you insist things are true that are easily demonstrably and verifiably not true right?

You need to read some history. 

....

CdnFox,

In the 1970s, everyone alive could speak of how the period of world history between 1914-1945 devastated/affected their family history: Whether wars or economic collapse,

The people alive today in these 2020s are like fish that escape the net.

 

[blackbird]

On 6/25/2024 at 4:23 PM, August1991 said:

We no longer need NATO.

What alternate reality do you live in?  Just because the USSR dissolved in about 1989, Russia did not disappear.  The same threat to the west is still there.  We also have the rising power of China.  Europe and the west still face the same threat.  We see what happened with the Ukraine and Russia.  There is good reason to believe Russia would not stop with Ukraine.  Why do you think Sweden joined NATO?   They joined because they realize the threat Russia poses to Europe and the world.  Yes we definitely need NATO.  Canada is a very weak country and has not been doing its part in supporting the military in Canada and in NATO.  Canada is a huge country that stretches up to the Arctic ocean and has massive amounts of natural resources that other countries want.  If we are going to claim this geographical area, we need to be able to defend it and stop riding on the coat tails of our southern neighbour all the time.  We shouldn't expect America to defend us and defend our Arctic area if we don't do our part in the world.  The world is a dangerous place and will get worse. 

Edited July 10, 2024 by blackbird

[blackbird]

On 6/25/2024 at 4:23 PM, August1991 said:

NATO is a way to make Canadians taxpayers buy military equipment made in the US.

What a strange way of looking at the world.  I would suspect you are in Quebec where many people have a very insulated, naive view of the real world.

The U.S.A. being the most powerful and democratic country in the world, has the most advanced military equipment, ships, and aircraft.  Of course we need to buy from them.  We do not have the ability to produce that kind of equipment.  We benefit and have much better equipment when we buy it from America.  They have the most advanced and powerful navy ships and aircraft and other military equipment in the world.  We would be fools not to take advantage of it.  They are our key ally in the world.

This video shows some of the things about the U.S. navy's powerful navy ships.  Watch this and learn.  We have nothing in comparison.  The federal government has been a disaster for Canada's military.  We need to wake up.

Bing Videos

 

Edited July 10, 2024 by blackbird

[blackbird]

The U.S. navy has the most powerful ships in the world.  Canada needs to take advantage of that.  We have three seas on three coast to protect.  We should be doing our part.  In today's world, the best way to do that is to have some of the most powerful navy ships in the world and the way to do that is to get them from the U.S.   Canada cannot look inward and expect to be able to build these kinds of ships ourselves.  That is the Socialist/union ideology which will keep Canada weak and we will have nothing.   We need to get with it and wake up.  We don't have the technology and resources to produce those kind of naval ships ourselves and never will.  We have a small population.   The U.S. is the most powerful country in the world.  We can take advantage of it.   Canada could negotiate some kind of special deal to get them and also start meeting our NATO commitments.  2% was to be a minimum goal, not a maximum.  Get with it Canada.  Watch this amazing video of U.S. naval power.

Bing Videos

Edited July 10, 2024 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, August1991 said:

CdnFox,

In the 1970s, everyone alive could speak of how the period of world history between 1914-1945 devastated/affected their family history: Whether wars or economic collapse,

The people alive today in these 2020s are like fish that escape the net.

 

And? IF we're being honest we could say the same of the Napoleonic wars and such. Hell, lets go back a thousand years or so and talk about the mongol's and all of eastern and much of western europe.  Or shall we look at the roman era?  How about the wars between britain and spain? that wound up affecting everyone from russia to the aztecs. 

Yeah, the guns have gotten bigger and the cavalry is faster and made of steel, and we can fly now, but in the end nothing really changes and hasn't for 2200 years. At best you can cherry pick little moments when the wars died down to be small enough that not everyone was impacted. 

So what is your point exactly?  Are you not able to say what your point is? Do you have one?

[Army Guy]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:46 AM, August1991 said:

NATO was designed (like SEATO) to achieve two things: a) confront Marxism (world hegemony of an ideology) and b) restrict Stalinism/Soviet Union.

Since the 1990s, we face neither problem.

But Army Guy, in these 2020s, our various world players seriously need a new sustainable structure of peace. IMHO, NATO is not a part of the picture.

At present, NATO is just a way to force foreigners to buy US-made military equipment. It is mercantilism at the dumbest level.

 

Why is so many countries seeking membership, is it because of Russia is taking this opportunity to expand its empire...regardless of global opinion or actions...and it has them scared... why is that?...I've asked you this many times and yet you either don't know or can't answer....

When was the last time a NATO country was attacked....again why is that...I'll tell you why this organization provides security to all members...an attack on one is an attack on all....and in many nations that in itself is a stable and sustainable structure of peace...I get it your opinion is states that NATO is dead...no longer viable...while millions of other opinions say it does...perhaps you have an alternative organization you could recommend to the millions of people already enjoying peace under this organization... 

We have already stated this answer is false...there is more to the NATO alliance than just keeping your defence budget at 2% , it has many other economic benefits such as trade agreements, tech sharing, even sharing of manufacturing processes...i know all dumb...very dumb maybe micheal can help explaining how dumb it really is...and what would be a more beneficial arrangement....Justin did say he was going to the NATO submit for trade... 

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

i know all dumb...very dumb maybe micheal can help explaining how dumb it really is...and what would be a more beneficial arrangement....

I wouldn't say dumb

but who would want to kill & die for that ?

I'm not so inclined to send our native sons to kill people and/or die themselves

for trade agreements which actually harm the working class to the benefit of multinational cartels

is this really why the Shock Troops of the Empire fought the First & Second World Wars ?

I mean, the people who run these technocratic corporations actually hate the troops

the Woke corporations are literally a fifth column in league to destroy our entire way of Western life

[Dougie93]

On 7/10/2024 at 11:41 AM, blackbird said:

What a strange way of looking at the world.  I would suspect you are in Quebec where many people have a very insulated, naive view of the real world.

The U.S.A. being the most powerful and democratic country in the world, has the most advanced military equipment, ships, and aircraft.  Of course we need to buy from them.  We do not have the ability to produce that kind of equipment.  We benefit and have much better equipment when we buy it from America.  They have the most advanced and powerful navy ships and aircraft and other military equipment in the world.  We would be fools not to take advantage of it.  They are our key ally in the world.

This video shows some of the things about the U.S. navy's powerful navy ships.  Watch this and learn.  We have nothing in comparison.  The federal government has been a disaster for Canada's military.  We need to wake up.

Bing Videos

 

but if America is defending global freedom of navigation

there is no reason for Canada to expend resources on a power projection navy

furthermore, there is no conventional maritime threat in Canadian waters

the only foreign forces operating in Canadian waters are operating against the Americans

Canada is largely irrelevant therein, simply being the no man's land in between

 

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

but if America is defending global freedom of navigation

there is no reason for Canada to expend resources on a power projection navy

furthermore, there is no conventional maritime threat in Canadian waters

the only foreign forces operating in Canadian waters are operating against the Americans

Canada is largely irrelevant therein, simply being the no man's land in between

 

Since we do have one of the largest and longest coasts in the world, it would make sense to have a half-way decent navy.  But we also desperately need a strong military or army and air force with the aircraft and equipment needed.  

[Dougie93]

Just now, blackbird said:

Since we do have one of the largest and longest coasts in the world, it would make sense to have a half-way decent navy.  But we also desperately need a strong military or army and air force with the aircraft and equipment needed.  

Canada simply cannot afford that, considering the Canadian population's appetite for socialist government waste

[Chrissy1979]

On 6/29/2024 at 3:19 AM, betsy said:

 

Another "Hitler?"   The spawn of Hitler are sitting across the aisle! 😁

They're the ones who always invoke racism (divisive), dictate what's good for you.....and force you to do as they say thru legislation!

Oh boy- why do you wreck your thread with such ignorant opinion?

 

One thing I can think of right now that shows you hardly know what you're on about: 

what dictator would give back the decision to the people/states (abortion issue)?

Trump was God's test of His believers. The so-called "evangelicals" failed. 

 

[August1991]

On 7/10/2024 at 12:44 PM, CdnFox said:

And? IF we're being honest we could say the same of the Napoleonic wars and such. Hell, lets go back a thousand years or so and talk about the mongol's and all of eastern and much of western europe.

....

So what is your point exactly?  Are you not able to say what your point is? Do you have one?

CdnFox,

My point is that it takes three generations of European males (a century more or less) to forget a war. Then, they fight again.

=====

We Canadians get along.

Since 1865, the Americans seem to get along.

Edited December 23, 2024 by August1991