Pro-Hamas Rallies in Canada

[Moonbox]

22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I've read a fair number of books discussing this and i don't recall any of them suggesting that people blamed democracy for the economic conditions per se. 

That's not what I said.  Versailles set the abysmal economic conditions that made it nearly impossible for democracy to succeed.  The Germans couldn't be sold on democracy, as you say, because they were given a rotten deal.  

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I think they were just very comfortable with the idea of a 'permanent ruler' model and thought hitler was doing great (remember a lot of their problems got better when he showed up) and were not sold on democracy. 

Saying problems got better under Hitler comes with some colossal, glaring caveats.  Economic expansion was bought and paid for with slave labour, confiscated property and longer working hours with no increase in wages. 

On 6/19/2024 at 4:18 PM, CdnFox said:

I can't prove you wrong in this case, but History is not in your favor and I'm not seeing anything to suggest that people would move to a democracy permanently even if it was given to them or that if they did the gov't they'd elect would have a more pro israeli or non interference policy.

I'd say a lot of history would suggest otherwise, considering that's exactly what ended up happening with Germany, almost the entire Warsaw Pact, and Iran itself in the 1950's prior to having their nascent democracy stamped out by foreign powers.  

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, User said:

I fully support being more aggressive in stopping Iran funding their proxies of terror around the world. 

In the meantime, I also fully support destroying Hamas. 

It is not an either/or. 

That's right, it's a matter of when but right now it's still leaning towards forever.

Declaring the IRG a terrorist group is a first step but maybe after the next Hamas or the one after that we'll start getting serious about the ME.

[taxme]

On 4/24/2024 at 10:28 AM, Black Dog said:

Old news, who cares, f*ck Israel.

Did the so-called Oct. 7th attack on Israel really happen or was that just another one of those Zionist lies that did not happen stories? I never do believe anything that Israel says. It's all pretty much bullshit. Just saying. 😇

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's not what I said.  Versailles set the abysmal economic conditions that made it nearly impossible for democracy to succeed.  The Germans couldn't be sold on democracy, as you say, because they were given a rotten deal.  

But democracy did succeed. Nothing about that treaty eroded democracy. Hitler was elected, and elevated to the top position through a democratic process and was very successfully dealing with the problems of the Treaty of Versailles.

You haven't shown any connection between the conditions they were living under and why people would not have wanted democracy. What about those conditions makes democracy untenable? Other countries have gone through severe financial difficulties and not given up democracy. Hitler, the person they trusted to fix it, was democratically elected. 

 

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Saying problems got better under Hitler comes with some colossal, glaring caveats.  Economic expansion was bought and paid for with slave labour, confiscated property and longer working hours with no increase in wages. 

Utterly false. Hitler stabilized the economy and brought inflation completely under control long before any 'slave labour' occurred and before the war broke out. He hadn't even got to the 'deporting jews and stealing their assets' stage. 

He got in, started a deal with the swiss to stabilize the german mark,  made a number of other changes and conditions significantly improved.  no slaves.  No reason to hate democracy at that point. 

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I'd say a lot of history would suggest otherwise,

Well you'd be wrong. 

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considering that's exactly what ended up happening with Germany, almost the entire Warsaw Pact, and Iran itself in the 1950's prior to having their nascent democracy stamped out by foreign powers.  

You're proving my point rather than the other way around. Germany only became a democracy in 1991 again and now once again we're seeing a political movement that's suggesting that might not be a great idea gaining ground. 

The soviets did not have democracy foisted on them, they "chose" it and as you know, and a lot of people did not support it and voila - it's currently not a democracy in reality at all. They've "elected" the same gov'ts they used to have.

And Iran's democracy failed in short order and has never come back. 

if democracy is not strongly driven by the people then it doesn't tend to last. And there is no particular reason to believe that if Iran once again was "Gifted" a democracy that they would retain it or that they wouldn't vote in exactly the same type of government with exactly the same sort of policies. Polling suggests that the dozens would revote hamas in and Hamas is currently getting them blown into small bite-sized pieces.

A lot of people around the world just don't like democracies, and they do believe in authoritarianism. There just isn't anything to suggest that would not be the case here as well, even if a democracy was installed tomorrow

[User]

50 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's right, it's a matter of when but right now it's still leaning towards forever.

Declaring the IRG a terrorist group is a first step but maybe after the next Hamas or the one after that we'll start getting serious about the ME.

And in the meantime... you want to leave Hamas to keep killing Israelis. 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, User said:

And in the meantime... you want to leave Hamas to keep killing Israelis. 

Fu ck you I do.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Fu ck you I do.

Do you notice that pretty much everybody thinks this of you? Do you think maybe you need to examine how you're communicating with people if this isn't actually how you feel?

[User]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Fu ck you I do.

So... you support Israel fighting to eliminate Hamas, then?

[Moonbox]

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But democracy did succeed. Nothing about that treaty eroded democracy.

Nobody said it did.  The treaty made life in Germany shit, and a shit life is the only sample of Democracy the German people ever got.  It doesn't matter if democracy wasn't responsible for the poor conditions - distinguishing between causal and coincidental relations is too much nuance for the average rube.  

16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Hitler was elected, and elevated to the top position through a democratic process and was very successfully dealing with the problems of the Treaty of Versailles.

A "democratic" process tainted by tens of thousands of thugs policing the election ballots, and the imprisonment and murder of his political opponents, whose assets and forced labor were used to fund his later "successes".  

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Utterly false. Hitler stabilized the economy and brought inflation completely under control long before any 'slave labour' occurred and before the war broke out. He hadn't even got to the 'deporting jews and stealing their assets' stage. 

I think you need to go reread some of those books you were talking about.  Look up the DAF, and what happened in 1933/1934. 

Trade unions were outlawed, their assets and offices confiscated and leaders imprisoned (or killed).  The work week was increased to 72 hours, striking was made illegal, workers couldn't negotiate their wages, and they weren't even allowed to leave their jobs unless their employers gave them written permission (which they typically didn't). 

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

if democracy is not strongly driven by the people then it doesn't tend to last. And there is no particular reason to believe that if Iran once again was "Gifted" a democracy that they would retain it or that they wouldn't vote in exactly the same type of government with exactly the same sort of policies.

Nobody's proposing Iran should be "Gifted" with democracy.  I'm suggesting that the people are not as happy with their government as you presume they are.  

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Nobody said it did. 

Moonbox - that's about enough of your cheezy bullshit.  You need to learn to say what you mean and stick by it.

You have very clearly offer the opinion that democracy was not viable because the people were mad about the Treaty of Versailles. In one way or another. That's what you have said, quit dancing around And trying to rewrite what you say every time you get boxed into a corner with logic and reason.  But dont' keep saying you didn't say the treaty was the problem immediately after you say the treaty is the problem 

The Treaty of Versailles had absolutely nothing whatsoever in any way shape or form directly or indirectly by cause or effect to do with the end of democracy in germany. So stop trying to pretend it does and then backtracking and trying to say you said something other than what you very clearly said when it turns out you weren't correct. If you can't say what you mean don't say anything at all.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

A "democratic" process tainted by tens of thousands of thugs policing the election ballots, and the imprisonment and murder of his political opponent

Nope. Try again.

Oh  and even if you were correct what you're saying is that they never had democracy in the first place. Which defeats your argument and does prove my point that democracies don't tend to last unless strongly supported by the people. 

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think you need to go reread some of those books you were talking about.  Look up the DAF, and what happened in 1933/1934. 

You mean when Hindenburg was president? After winning that election in 1932 that you claim hitler rigged with violence?

And the nazi's were already the second largest party in the Reichstag by 1930. So nothing they did in 1933 made that happen. 

Swing and a miss again. 

 

Democracy failed in Germany because the people didn't strongly support it. And that tends to happen everywhere it's tried where it's not the people who are pushing for it. And there's no reason to believe it would be any different in Iran, where democracy already happened and failed. 

[PIK]

On 6/20/2024 at 1:14 PM, eyeball said:

Sure, but only until such time as you stop supporting Hamas' patrons and put them out of business.

So does Palestine.

How so?

Who was the president of Palestine?

[eyeball]

10 minutes ago, PIK said:

Who was the president of Palestine?

Okay put it this way then...Palestinians have a right to resist their subjugation that is equal to Israel's right to defend itself.

Of course it goes without saying, or should, that neither have the right to commit war crimes when doing these things.

[CdnFox]

Just now, eyeball said:

 

Of course it goes without saying, or should, that neither have the right to commit war crimes when doing these things.

But the Palestinians did. So their rights went out the window.

And no, the rights to "Resist subjugation"  is not the same to write to defend your existence. I'm the Palestinians weren't being subjugated, they chose the mess that they were in. They could have done things differently and had a good existence. What they are tempting to do is suppress the Jews. Suppressing another group is not resisting subjugation

[Moonbox]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Moonbox - that's about enough of your cheezy bullshit.  You need to learn to say what you mean and stick by it.

I think you need to start debating what people are actually arguing, rather than what you want their arguments to be.  🙃

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You have very clearly offer the opinion that democracy was not viable because the people were mad about the Treaty of Versailles.

Here's what I actually said, in 3 different ways:

If you can't see the difference between those three quotes, and your muddled version of it, that's not my problem.  

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You mean when Hindenburg was president? After winning that election in 1932 that you claim hitler rigged with violence?

And the nazi's were already the second largest party in the Reichstag by 1930. So nothing they did in 1933 made that happen. 

Swing and a miss again. 

LOL!  What does any of this have to do with the DAF and the labour policies of the Nazi party?  🤣

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I think you need to start debating what people are actually arguing, rather than what you want their arguments to be.  🙃

I debate the arguments you present. The problem is you then insist you never presented them, then go on to present them again. 

It's the same every time, You say something, then say you didn't say it, then say it. 

 

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Here's what I actually said, in 3 different ways:

Yes  you said that people blamed their shittty conditions brought about by the treaty on democracy 

That's ALSO what i said you said. 

So you actually said what i said you said.  What a shock. 

What i ALSO said is that you have not demonstrated why they would blame democracy when it was the kaizer who started the war and the allies who imposed those conditions.  Things actually got BETTER by FAR under hitler, who came into power during the 'democracy'. 

So quit pretending you didn't say what you said ffs. If you say something that is stupid or wrong just move on instead of denying it and then repeating the stupid 

The treaty had NOTHING to do with the rejection of democracy. Zero zip nada. So lets stop pretending that it did and quit denying that's' what you said. 

 

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LOL!  What does any of this have to do with the DAF and the labour policies of th e Nazi party?  🤣

Sigh.  You literally attribute the nazi's rise to power to events that took place AFTER they rose to power.  And you don't see how that's relevant to your agument.   

Let me guess - you believe the nazi's had a time machine?   LOLOLOL

Or better yet, you never said they rose to power!!! ROFLMAO!! 

 

[User]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Okay put it this way then...Palestinians have a right to resist their subjugation that is equal to Israel's right to defend itself.

Of course it goes without saying, or should, that neither have the right to commit war crimes when doing these things.

Exactly what resistance is it you are supporting here? Is it Hamas?

Talk to Hamas about the war crimes. They are the ones committing them. 

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, User said:

Exactly what resistance is it you are supporting here? Is it Hamas?

No, I support resistance to the subjugation of Palestinian's.

Like you, Hamas can go fu ck itself. They support Iran.

[User]

19 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Like you, Hamas can go fu ck itself. They support Iran.

Hamas is going to keep killing Israelis. That is what they are going to do and, apparently, exactly what you support letting them do. 

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, User said:

Hamas is going to keep killing Israelis.

Probably, but I've told you what you need to do about Hamas. In the meantime do you support Israel's subjugation of Palestinians?  Wouldn't you resist that if it was you?

I've yet to get an answer to that question from anyone around here.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, I support resistance to the subjugation of Palestinian's.

Like you, Hamas can go fu ck itself. They support Iran.

Has have been noted many times, the Palestinians are Hamas. They Embrace hamas, they believe in hamas's ideals, they are inseparable.

And the Palestinians are self subjugating. They are the only ones subjugating themselves. If they stopped trying to commit genocide and decided to live in peace they would have everything they wanted.

[User]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Probably, but I've told you what you need to do about Hamas.

Nothing... you want to leave them in power so they keep killing Israelis. 

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

In the meantime do you support Israel's subjugation of Palestinians?  Wouldn't you resist that if it was you?

What subjugation is it you think is happening?

What resistance is it you are supporting here?

 

[Venandi]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

In the meantime do you support Israel's subjugation of Palestinians?

And I'd like to know if you've stopped beating your wife?

IMO, you've deliberately framed the question in a manner that fails to acknowledge Israeli efforts to minimize collateral damage. Like it or not, they have established a new standard that will become the model for other nations involved in high population density theatres. 

Apparently I'm not the only one who sees it that way:

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286

Hamas has a religious ideology... not a political one. They are not advocating for the Palestinian people, their political aspirations or even trying to address legitimate grievances.

You can negotiate with that. What you can't negotiate with is  the Hamas objective to kill Jews, annihilate the Jewish state and rebuild on the rubble. 

Given the inherent bias in your question, the only answer I can offer you then is YES. I support the subjugation of Palestinians... as much subjugation as it takes for as long as it takes to subjugate Hamas and remove it (for the sake of clarity I'll say CRUSH IT) as a governing entity. 

How do ya like me now?

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

I've told you what you need to do about Hamas

Must have missed that part... I'm all ears.

If it doesn't involve removing Hamas from power then don't bother reiterating it. I always ask people who don't support removing Hamas as an entity a simple question, so far no one has answered it:

How would you negotiate with the murderous neighbour next door who just got out of jail for poisoning your dog and fire bombing your house. He wants you out of the neighbourhood because you happen to be gay (or have blue eyes, what ever).

To appreciate the magnitude of the problem, simply look at the people (right here) who can't even discuss this topic (or any other topic for that matter) politely on a political forum, using an anonymous screen name, with zero accountability for outcomes and/or unintended consequences... how exactly do they plan to achieve world peace? Or any other negotiated outcome on any other issue?

How are you going to smooth things over with that neighbour when you can't even get through Christmas dinner with your in-laws? From what I've seen, people with the strongest opinions of what others should be doing can't seem to muster the will power it takes to lose 10 pounds... they make the same resolution every January, they flood into the gym, they tie up equipment playing on their phones, and come Feb 15th... POOF, they vanish. During their brief yearly tenure, the number one question these folks have is: "what supplements should I be taking?

And the worst part of it is they're actually serious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23 by Venandi

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, User said:

What subjugation

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Venandi said:

IMO, you've deliberately framed the question in a manner that fails to acknowledge Israeli efforts to minimize collateral damage.

IMO you people constantly frame answers in a manner that fails to acknowledge legitimate Palestinian grievances. In this case by pretending Israel's subjugation of Palestinians is benign. Some of you even think it's beneficial.

[I am Groot]

I think a lot of the answer to these Hamas-supporting protests has to involve going after the moneymen organizing and funding them. Almost all of them are from outside Canada so we can start with a total ban on receiving outside funds for the purpose of demonstrating, protesting or lobbying government or industry for anything whatsoever. 

After that, we close down organizations in Canada that sympathize and work for terrorist entities and deport them if not born here, and then arrest those protesting illegally.

 

Research conducted by the U.S.-based Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy (ISGAP) — which, over more than a decade, has uncovered “billions of dollars of unreported funds” transferred from the Middle East to anti-Israel student groups in the U.S. — found that American non-profits have been funding SJP chapters to the tune of US$3 million a year. ISGAP also showed that AMP has been a key source of funds for Jewish Voice for Peace, a rabid anti-Zionist organization active in Canada and the U.S. that purports to represent Jews, but which Bazian has been accused of playing a key role in.

 

The student protests have also received considerable funds from the Samidoun Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network, a Canadian non-profit that’s closely associated with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), a listed terrorist entity in Canada with ties to Hamas, and has organized many of the vile anti-Israel protests on Canadian streets. Samidoun was classified as a terrorist organization by Israel in 2021 and banned in Germany late last year, but has been allowed to operate freely here in Canada.

https://archive.is/OSvoP

 

Edited June 23 by I am Groot