Why Trudeau Liberal's and NDP two-state solution for Israel demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

What are you thinking - take off and nuke them from orbit? it's the only way to be sure right?

Nope. Regime change in Iran, international peacekeeping forces between Israelis and Palestinians, billions upon billions on a economic recovery and rebuilding 'Marshal' style plan for Palestinian territories and negotiate a treaty settlement.  Be willing to commit decades if not longer to treaty negotiations if needs be.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

What a surprise you can't answer a simple question.

Question was answered clearly.  Your problem is you can't really read anything without pictures.

Quote

Well they lied, repeatedly and enthusiastically.

Uh huh. No dead children huh? No dead women? They just made up? Got a bunch of actors and some ketchup?

Just like those nazi gas chambers right? All faked. Gosh those jews, always claiming massacre when there isn't any.

 

If you can't accept even the basic truths of the situation, truths that have been verified by several countries now, then there's no point in discussing it much with you, other than to point and laugh.  As always you live in your own little fantasy world

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Nope. Regime change in Iran, international peacekeeping forces between Israelis and Palestinians, billions upon billions on a economic recovery and rebuilding 'Marshal' style plan for Palestinian territories and negotiate a treaty settlement.  Be willing to commit decades if not longer to treaty negotiations if needs be.

I think nuking them from space may turn out to be more practical.

[Black Dog]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Question was answered clearly.  Your problem is you can't really read anything without pictures.

Lying again, huh.

Quote

Uh huh. No dead children huh? No dead women? They just made up? Got a bunch of actors and some ketchup?

Just like those nazi gas chambers right? All faked. Gosh those jews, always claiming massacre when there isn't any.

If you can't accept even the basic truths of the situation, truths that have been verified by several countries now, then there's no point in discussing it much with you, other than to point and laugh.  As always you live in your own little fantasy world

This is a very poor effort even by your pathetic standards. Nobody said no women or children were killed, we're talking about specific incidents involving atrocities that Israel claimed took place that you and other stooges enthusiastically parroted and have subsequently been proven to be false or at least uncorroborated. Your pitiful attempt to shift the goalposts here says a lot about the quality of your argument and the veracity of those claims.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Thats not what genocide is.

Whatever the terms you use, inflicting brutal war on them in response to a vicious attack during a cease-fire is not among them.

[Black Dog]

17 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Whatever the terms you use, inflicting brutal war on them in response to a vicious attack during a cease-fire is not among them.

Sorry but being attacked does not entitle anyone to One Free Genocide.

Also it's insane that you consider, a large scale terrorist assault that killed a few hundred people to be genocide, but not an intensive military campaign characterized by the deaths of tens of thousands of noncombatants, the forced relocation of millions of people (possibly never to return), the almost routine commission of war crimes, the deliberate withholding of food and medical aid, and the widespread an intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure.

 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Lying again, huh.

 

I"m sure it makes you feel better to tell yourself that   It's there in black and white tho so....

Quote

This is a very poor effort even by your pathetic standards. Nobody said no women or children were killed,

Yeah you basically did.  And now you're admitting they were but trying to argue about how BADLY they were killed.

Dude - that kind of makes you not only scum but uneducated scum.

The people in question were mutilated and burned.  Sorry your heros turned out to be such scumbags.  Maybe don't idolize terrorists moving forward and you won't get so disappointed.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

Sorry but being attacked does not entitle anyone to One Free Genocide.

It does if they don't surrender.  that's how it works - the fighting goes on till they give up. Ask the japanese about that.

Hamas and gaza can end the war this afternoon - surrender. Surrender and let israel take hamas and hold them to account instead of hiding behind your children. 

But they don't. So- it continues.

[I am Groot]

51 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Sorry but being attacked does not entitle anyone to One Free Genocide.

Also it's insane that you consider, a large scale terrorist assault that killed a few hundred people to be genocide, but not an intensive military campaign characterized by the deaths

I understand your confusion when someone relies on logic and principles. Let me attempt to explain it to you. The war Israel is making on Hamas is designed to destroy Hamas' ability to inflict murderous attacks upon its people. It's unfortunate that when you make war on an armed group with tens of thousands of fighters with an immense tunnel system to hide and move around in a lot of civilians will die, too, but largely unavoidable. That is not, however the goal.

When Hamas attacked Israel, they had no military objective. Their objective was to murder every Jew they could get their hands on - though they first stopped to rape the younger women and commit torture on them and on children. Had they not been stopped, they would have continued to slaughter every single man, woman and child they came upon.

That is what genocide is all about, Charley Brown.

 

51 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

the forced relocation of millions of people (possibly never to return), the almost routine commission of war crimes, the deliberate withholding of food and medical aid, and the widespread an intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure.

This is all just babbling and sputter. They haven't relocated anyone, in no small measure because no one else will take these unpleasant people.

Edited March 19 by I am Groot

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I think nuking them from space may turn out to be more practical.

An asteroid would be more natural and in keeping with Who originally created this catastrophe.

But seriously, the countries that put this together including ourselves should be held to far greater account for what is arguably the greatest act of modern geopolitical vandalism of all time bar none.

[I am Groot]

Trudeau government says it will stop sending arms to Israel just like it stopped sending arms to the Canadian military eight years ago.

[CdnFox]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

An asteroid would be more natural and in keeping with Who originally created this catastrophe.

 

God? LOL - fair point, i'll give you that one

Quote

But seriously, the countries that put this together including ourselves should be held to far greater account for what is arguably the greatest act of modern geopolitical vandalism of all time bar none.

Yeah life sucks and whitey is terrible.  Yawn. 

At this point it's not relevant.  It's done and has been for almost 100 years. Today we've got decisions to make and it would be nice if they were talking about what we did right 100 years from now and not what we screwed up again.

Regime change always assumes the new regime will be better - that's the thinking that gave us saddam hussein. So it's not so easy to just topple iran and hope it'll work out, we'd have to be actively involved in picking the new regime and hope we did better

Peacekeeping only works if both sides want peace. One side DEFINITELY doesn't in this case (tho getting bombed back to the stone age may make them think it's not such a bad idea) and the other is pretty leery of it.

I think your ideas would work if possible but i don't think you can get there from here.

[Black Dog]

15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I understand your confusion when someone relies on logic and principles. Let me attempt to explain it to you. The war Israel is making on Hamas is designed to destroy Hamas' ability to inflict murderous attacks upon its people. It's unfortunate that when you make war on an armed group with tens of thousands of fighters with an immense tunnel system to hide and move around in a lot of civilians will die, too, but largely unavoidable. That is not, however the goal.

Well, when you listen to Israeli military leaders and politicians, they say a very different thing. I'll take their word over yours. Also their actions bely your claims of benevolent slaughter.

Quote

 

When Hamas attacked Israel, they had no military objective. Their objective was to murder every Jew they could get their hands on - though they first stopped to rape the younger women and commit torture on them and on children. Had they not been stopped, they would have continued to slaughter every single man, woman and child they came upon.

That is what genocide is all about, Charley Brown.

 

No, not every mass slaughter is genocide, dipshit, and pretending it is cheapens the word.

Quote

This is all just babbling and sputter. They haven't relocated anyone, in no small measure because no one else will take these unpleasant people.

This is just denialism.

[I am Groot]

42 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Well, when you listen to Israeli military leaders and politicians, they say a very different thing. I'll take their word over yours. Also their actions bely your claims of benevolent slaughter.

Again, your vast ignorance of the politics involved, which requires Netanyahu's minority government to cater to tiny, often fanatical religious parties, is showing. Under Israel's system when you make a deal with other parties to form a majority the minority parties don't just sit there like lumps. You have to give them places in government. That includes cabinet positions. This is why you often hear members of the 'government' saying stupid things that are not government policy but merely the opinion of religious fanatics.

42 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

No, not every mass slaughter is genocide, dipshit, and pretending it is cheapens the word.

Right back at you, you far left twat.

42 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

This is just denialism.

They've moved large numbers of people without the media finding out? Perhaps you have a particular connection to  Hamas or one of the other terrorist groups there that gives you better insight?

Edited March 20 by I am Groot

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Again, your vast ignorance of the politics involved, which requires Netanyahu's minority government to cater to tiny, often fanatical religious parties, is showing. Under Israel's system when you make a deal with other parties to form a majority the minority parties don't just sit there like lumps. You have to give them places in government. That includes cabinet positions. This is why you often hear members of the 'government' saying stupid things that are not government policy but merely the opinion of religious fanatics.

It's coming from cabinet ministers and Netenyahoo himself but keep f*cking that chicken.

Quote

Right back at you, you far left twat.

Nah you're the one arguing an attack that killed a few hundred people is in the same category as the holocaust, which s a laughable position. Offensive even.

Quote

They've moved large numbers of people without the media finding out? Perhaps you have a particular connection to  Hamas or one of the other terrorist groups there that gives you better insight?

They've forcibly displaced the Palestinian population into small patches of land in Gaza to create densely populated 'safe zones', which they then bomb. If you somehow missed this, then don't know what you've been reading or if the information just leaked out of the holes in your skull.

[Black Dog]

19 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Yeah you basically did.  And now you're admitting they were but trying to argue about how BADLY they were killed.

Dude - that kind of makes you not only scum but uneducated scum.

"Basically" lol get f*cked dummy.

Quote

The people in question were mutilated and burned.  Sorry your heros turned out to be such scumbags.  Maybe don't idolize terrorists moving forward and you won't get so disappointed.

Nope, you don't get to make specific claims and then backpedal and pretend you're talking about general victims, you stupid f*cking clown.

Edited March 20 by Black Dog

[CdnFox]

Just now, Black Dog said:

"Basically" lol get f*cked dummy.

 

Ohe NOES - triggered leftie is triggered! LOL

I get why you're trying to walk back what you said - it does make you look like a disgusting human being.

Quote

Nope, you don't get to make specific claims and then backpedal pretend you're talking about general victims, you stupid f*cking clown.

 I didn't mention specific claims.  I made a general reference to how some of the bodies were found and you were the one who claimed it was all faked.

YOU don't get to make general statements like that and then backpeddal.  Once again the left's favourite tactic is to accuse others of what they do.

Sorry kiddo - women and children were slaughtered by the guys you support and they were burned and they had nails driven into their private parts. Those things happened. That has been verified. Your heros are human scum and really that says a lot about you too.

[Black Dog]

On 3/20/2024 at 11:10 AM, CdnFox said:

Ohe NOES - triggered leftie is triggered! LOL

I get why you're trying to walk back what you said - it does make you look like a disgusting human being.

 I didn't mention specific claims.  I made a general reference to how some of the bodies were found and you were the one who claimed it was all faked.

You're lying again. Have you tried not being a liar?

Quote

Sorry kiddo - women and children were slaughtered by the guys you support and they were burned and they had nails driven into their private parts. Those things happened. That has been verified. Your heros are human scum and really that says a lot about you too.

More lies. These stories have not "been verified". For example, the "nails in the privates" claim was made by a single volunteer from Zaka, a private, Ultra-Orthodox  organization that was the source of numerous other debunked atrocity porn claims and that has also been found to have grossly mishandled evidence from Oct.7, and has not been corroborated, not even by the IDF. To be clear: obviously there was a significant loss of life and no doubt atrocities took place; it's just a tiny bit odd that so many specific claims have been proven to be horseshit.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

You're lying again. Have you tried not being a liar?

 

Anyone can go back and look kiddo again - lefties ALWAYS accuse others of what they do themselves

Quote

More lies. These stories have not "been verified".

They have in fact.

Quote

For example, the "nails in the privates" claim was made by a single volunteer from Zaka, a private, Ultra-Orthodox  organization that was the source of numerous other debunked atrocity porn claims and that has also been found to have grossly mishandled evidence from Oct.7, and has not been corroborated, not even by the IDF. To be clear: obviously there was a significant loss of life and no doubt atrocities took place; it's just a tiny bit odd that so many specific claims have been proven to be horseshit.

According to 'the intercept'?  They make fox news look unbias and constantly accurate.

Here's some more verified behavior of your little friends

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-776654

Gender-based violence

Mendes spoke Monday at a sidebar event at the United Nations in New York, organized by Israel’s mission to the world body. “Hear Our Voices: Sexual and gender-based violence in the October 7 Hamas terror attack” was meant to highlight stories of Hamas rape and gender mutilation during the attack, which have been largely swept under the rug by the international community, including the UN.

In a filmed testimonial played at the event, a survivor said she watched a terrorist who had cut off a woman’s breasts and played with them – after he had raped her.

This seemed to be a systematic genital mutilation of a group of victims,” Mendes said.

These  claims were not just from one person.  UN teams have discussed it with other witnesses.  THe bodies were documented.

This is 100 percent in keeping with what Greeneman found.  Heads blown off - genitals mutilated.

Here's the UN experts saying it probably happened

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/4/reasonable-grounds-to-believe-hamas-committed-sexual-violence-un

Credible circumstantial information, which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualised torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered,” read the 24-page UN report.

“The mission team found clear and convincing information that some hostages taken to Gaza have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual violence and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing,” the report also said

 

 

So what does all that mean? Well it means you're a lying sack of shit and your heros rape and mutilate women for fun. Verified

[I am Groot]

 

Ayaan Hirsi Ali's take on the Western liberals and their tolerance for Palestinian brutality vs their horror at Israel's retaliation seems rooted in the reality I see from discussions like this.

Immediately, for instance, it was forgotten that the greatest display of deviancy in this conflict came from Hamas. More than anything, October 7 illustrated in a single day how swift the descent from civilisation to barbarism can be. On that day, the heinous acts themselves were manifested in the massacre of innocent, unarmed and totally unprepared civilians. These were young people at a music festival, many of them peaceniks. Family members were shot, stabbed and mutilated in front of one another. Women were raped, homes were burned, and the perpetrators revelled in their acts. Their GoPro cameras were set to record, for they knew large audiences at home awaited that footage.

Celebrations ensued, not only by Palestinians but also by many Arabs, Muslims, and fellow travellers on Western university campuses. Top university administrators displayed a shocking level of moral confusion in response. The three Women of the Ivies could not even take courage before Congress simply to say: “This is not who we are. We condemn this.”

The ensuing demonisation of Israel for waging what is historically a standard siege, and the relentless calls for a ceasefire, have followed. And these calls have been so effective that now Israel’s great allies in the UK and the US are twisting Israel’s arm to concede. But even without the appeasement of a complete ceasefire, we know full well that it is only a matter of time before Hamas and her helpers reorganise and repeat the atrocities of October 7. We know it because this has been Hamas’s pattern. Attack, provoke a retaliation, complain of disproportionality. Then acquire the world’s sympathy, and negotiate ceasefire, aid, and the time to plan the next attack.

 

https://unherd.com/2024/03/the-west-has-a-deviancy-problem/

Edited March 22 by I am Groot

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 3/19/2024 at 10:51 AM, I am Groot said:

The Jews were open to a two-state solution and living peacefully among the Arabs. The Palestinians have repeatedly demonstrated they are not. It is virtually certain that an independent Palestine would become a mini-Iran, and would immediately load up on heavy weapons preparatory to a full-scale attack on Israel. And based on Oct 7 it would be an invasion where every Israeli civilian in land overrun by the attackers would die.

And you wonder why they aren't quick to accept this?

Things change. In 1917 there was no Hamas and Palestine was just an obscure backwater of the Ottoman Empire with a Jewish minority. Then the invading British had the bright idea to send the Eastern European Jews they and the rest of Europe didn’t want to another continent. These days, I hear a lot about the problems immigration can bring. Well that’s what happened. The Arabs revolted and the British put the revolts down brutally which greatly strengthened the position of Zionists in the territory. It takes a while to accept one has lost one’s land. Remember Churchill’s speech about fighting the Germans on the beaches and landing grounds and so on until ‘we shall never surrender’? Turns out most people on the planet think that way. 

There were always people looking for a solution on both sides but they had opponents on their side too. Barak and Olmert had to deal with Likud and we know what happened to Rabin. On the other side, things were naturally even more chaotic partly because Palestine isn’t a state and also because exiles can become marinated in the most extreme positions and were poisoned by Islamicist ideology. Abbas was once reasonable. The offer from Olmert was a good place to start but neither side had enough time to press it home before Bibi was facing off against Obama and the moment was lost. 

If you look at any tribal conflict that has been peacefully resolved you will usually see a long catalogue of failure before the deal. Peace in Ireland took 800 years. Obviously, the clock has been put way back now with the atrocities committed by Hamas but it is still ticking. Humans can change. Peace is possible. 

BTW I also believe that one day a mini-Iran will be something for any developing country to aspire to. I remember when it was a great place to visit - my school used to organize trips there. That can happen again. 

 

 

Edited March 22 by SpankyMcFarland

[I am Groot]

11 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

If you look at any tribal conflict that has been peacefully resolved you will usually see a long catalogue of failure before the deal. Peace in Ireland took 800 years. Obviously, the clock has been put way back now with the atrocities committed by Hamas but it is still ticking. Humans can change. Peace is possible. 

Sure. I don't disagree. The problem is that the people of Palestine have been indoctrinated with hatred, absolute raging hatred towards Jews and Israel since birth. That's particularly so in Gaza under Hamas. And not a lot better in the surrounding Arab states (as per PEW polls and surveys). To the point an awful lot of them, maybe even the majority are quite open to the idea of slaughters like Oct 7.

Meanwhile, people who've grown up in Israel have lived with the knowledge since birth that all around them is this great, seething mass of Arabs who hate them and want them dead at almost any cost. All of them waiting just beyond the wire, just beyond the walls, just beyond the barbed wire and mines. And if any had any doubt about that Oct 7 crushed that. Oct 7 was their background fears come to blinding, crystal-clear light. A significant number of them hated the Arabs right back even before Oct 7, and they will never EVER trust them to hold to a ceasefire or a treaty or an agreement.

And how do you think you convince them to let the Palestinians have a state? Especially given Iran's influence and the likelihood of an Islamist state taking shape the moment they pull out?

Would you, if you lived there?

 

Edited March 22 by I am Groot

[Moonlight Graham]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:44 AM, ExFlyer said:

The Palestinians are as entitled to a homeland as the Israelis are. 

It seems the Israelis that were so quick to accept the UN decree for them, are not so quick to accept the UN request for the Palestinians.

I agree with the NDP on this (the only time ever I agreed with NDP)

The Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution, have rejected every single proposal over the last century, attack Israel/Jews after they reject every proposal,  and would only ever accept a proposal if they thought it got them closer to their actual goal which is a 1 state solution and the destruction of Israel.

Statehood would give Palestinians the right to build a military and rights to trade with foreign countries, meaning importing weapons they would obviously use to attack Israel and innocent civilians to attempt destroy Israel. 

aAnyone who thinks Israel would or should allow this is a fool.  Anyone or any party who thinks countries like Canada should reward Oct 7 with calls to pressure for a 2 state solution is foolish.

[ExFlyer]

22 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution, have rejected every single proposal over the last century, attack Israel/Jews after they reject every proposal,  and would only ever accept a proposal if they thought it got them closer to their actual goal which is a 1 state solution and the destruction of Israel.

Statehood would give Palestinians the right to build a military and rights to trade with foreign countries, meaning importing weapons they would obviously use to attack Israel and innocent civilians to attempt destroy Israel. 

aAnyone who thinks Israel would or should allow this is a fool.  Anyone or any party who thinks countries like Canada should reward Oct 7 with calls to pressure for a 2 state solution is foolish.

First of all.Israel has only been around since 1948n s0\o , past century is BS.

Second, the Palestinians have never been offered a 2 state solution. Lots of talk but never a proposal.

Yes, statehood would give them the same rights and authorities and capabilities of any other country, just like Israel.

Anyone who thinks Palestinians do not deserve the respect and autonomy like Israel has is the one that are fools. Why is it good for one peoples but not the other??? Sounds like discrimination to me.

I personally could not care less about either one of them but, being one sided is unfair , foolish and very discriminatory.

Should Canada reward indiscriminate bombing an shelling and killing of more than 25,000 women and children and destroying homes, schools and hospitals and displacing millions more the past 5 months for a principal[la??

[I am Groot]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I personally could not care less about either one of them but, being one sided is unfair , foolish and very discriminatory.

Would you say it's unfair, foolish and discriminatory to be one-sided when discussing Adolph Hitler? Vladamir Putin? How about pedophiles? Should pedophiles be allowed to have their kiddie porn? Are you one-sided on the subject of whether ten year olds should be given the vote and allowed to drive cars? What about slavery? Are you one-sided or are you seriously willing to consider the benefits of slavery?

Sometimes, in other words, being one-sided is just the thing moral, intelligent thing to do.

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Should Canada reward indiscriminate bombing an shelling and killing of more than 25,000 women and children and destroying homes, schools and hospitals and displacing millions more the past 5 months for a principal[la??

Should we reward the rape, torture and murder of women and children?

Nothing Israel is doing hasn't been done in every war man has waged. You're just getting it shoved in your face on a daily basis by a hysterical progressive media, and a lot of online left wing news site plus a bunch of left wing activist groups likely financed by China or Russia or both.

By the way, the claim of all those women and children dying has been disproven purely on a statistical basis. I you believe the claims you have to believe the Israeli bombs and bullets are somehow veering around all the male civilians just to kill the women and children.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Would you say it's unfair, foolish and discriminatory to be one-sided when discussing Adolph Hitler? Vladamir Putin? How about pedophiles? Should pedophiles be allowed to have their kiddie porn? Are you one-sided on the subject of whether ten year olds should be given the vote and allowed to drive cars? What about slavery? Are you one-sided or are you seriously willing to consider the benefits of slavery?

Sometimes, in other words, being one-sided is just the thing moral, intelligent thing to do.

Should we reward the rape, torture and murder of women and children?

Nothing Israel is doing hasn't been done in every war man has waged. You're just getting it shoved in your face on a daily basis by a hysterical progressive media, and a lot of online left wing news site plus a bunch of left wing activist groups likely financed by China or Russia or both.

By the way, the claim of all those women and children dying has been disproven purely on a statistical basis. I you believe the claims you have to believe the Israeli bombs and bullets are somehow veering around all the male civilians just to kill the women and children.

What a stupid comparison. Not even worth addressing. Why not go back further...Genghis Kahn? Papa Doc, Stalin? Pol Pot? Comparing Palestiniens as a group to one individual? Not all Palestinians are Hamas. but....Neenyahoois one person...under his directions tens of thousands have died.  Bombs and rockets form Israel are nondiscriminatory, they kill everything in their range....Israeli soldiers , on the other hand know exactly what they are shooting at.

Are you saying the Israelis are raping and torturing women? Seems Hamas bombed but Israel invaded. Bombs and rockets cannot rape and torture.

That is my opinion, don't like it rough ass. Makes no difference if you agree or not.

Your opinion is worth just as mush as mine

Disproven on statistics?? Where?? Don't be so foolish to drink all that kool aid LOL

Your comments and claims really make you look foolish LOL

 

Edited March 22 by ExFlyer