FPTP is extreme danger in uncertain and volatile times

[myata]

Just look, no need to go far. Folks are pretty fed up with pompous prolific talkers that this generation of Liberals appears to be. Quite understandably.

But what is the fix, the alternative? We "vote", the other bunch gets 41% and all of a sudden, it's a "landslide". You came to h-te this full of self face here so you just have to love that other one, there. Right? Makes sense?

But wait, there's more. They'll take that "landslide" 41%, in a normal political system not enough to form a government why would it, not a majority and not even close and push it down your throat like you prayed and danced for everything they say, enthusiastically. Not because you were bored and disappointed with the other guy, no. Because all of a sudden you developed a deep and trusting affair with them, handing them you checkbook, and keys to the future. That's how they will see it, and no other way. This is how they made this cute system for themselves, over the decades and centuries.

You thought that supporting principles and justice was important? Forget it. Not our business, you voted.

You thought that lying for lying, and power sake is wrong? Forget it. The lying Clown possibly soon, convicted felon is our best friend.

You thought that the state has no business in ideology? No, it has to be the right kind of ideology.

This house of cards pseudo democracy is becoming more dangerous by the day. And there will be no miracles. That much you know.

[myata]

Enough of that nonsense, already. In this age, and century a government cannot be democratic unless it is supported by the majority of voters. No mambo jumbo voodoo moodoo fancy counting. Votes. Every one of them is counted and counts. Simple. The right and the one way, only.

Hand tricks, don't count. Fake "landslides", not a bit. Prerogatives and privileges assigned upon themselves (aga grabbed) based on non-existent, phantom, faked "majorities" count for nothing in a real, responsible citizens democracy of today. Easy. We, citizens can see it, and decide it. No more nonsense.

[Queenmandy85]

8 hours ago, myata said:

You thought that lying for lying, and power sake is wrong? Forget it. The lying Clown possibly soon, convicted felon is our best friend.

Who are you referring to?

There really isn't a viable alternative to FPTP. Basically, the closest alternative would be to have run-off elections in those ridings where the winner doesn't receive a majority. Would that alter who is asked to form a government?

Some people suggest proportional representation, but it is unworkable in the Canadian context.

The other alternative is a complicated ballot system but that still doesn't solve the issue of how to avoid minority governments. 

We could adopt the American system of two parties by eliminating the splinter parties such as the Bloc, NDP and Greens.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Queenmandy85

[Queenmandy85]

The problem with the Canadian government is not the system, but how we treat the people who are willing to serve. People of merit are more important than ideology, yet we are becoming more ideological in how we engage in politics, at the expense of respect and pragmatism.

[Queenmandy85]

4 hours ago, myata said:

Enough of that nonsense, already. In this age, and century a government cannot be democratic unless it is supported by the majority of voters.

Why are you so fixated on the concept of "democracy?" Just look at the people elected in a democracy or a republic. Trump, Netanyahu, et al.

[blackbird]

18 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Just look at the people elected in a democracy or a republic. Trump, Netanyahu, et al.

I'm not a big fan of Trump, but you have to admit at least he seems to oppose some of the radical progressive/woke liberal left policies.  These left liberal policies under Trudeau are costing Canadians billions of dollars and wrecking Canada.  Did you see the article explaining how the parliamentary budget officer report that the liberal left has increased the amount that Canada could be liable for to aboriginals from 11 billion dollars to 76 billion dollars.  This is destroying Canada and contributing to the national debt, higher cost of living, housing crisis, and creating huge divisions in Canada.

I won't get into Israel's internal politics as that is a waste of time right now.  They can choose whoever they wish as their leaders.

[myata]

57 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There really isn't a viable alternative to FPTP.

This is one of the best here. Let it just remain for the posterity. And for the reality: all of the democratic world, with exactly two exceptions, is using a different system.

The UK is an exception, history-level: it has the first democratic system in the modern world; it lasted almost a millennium: the first ever, in history.

The USA is an exception: the foundations of its democracy were established in the post-medieval world, before the age of Empires in Europe. It was designed thoughtfully and meticulously, with effective framework of checks and balances checking and preventing abuse and usurpation of power. Still, it is approaching the state of an extreme partisan division and paralysis, as we can observe in real time.

And Canada, in comparison was never a democracy. The governments simply never had earned the necessary popular support through open and honest competition, rather than fancy counting tricks. This is the reality. Simple. If it doesn't have the majority of votes, all votes, it cannot be a majority. Fancy tricks are just that, tricks of paper and finger. They cannot count for anything real.

Edited December 14, 2023 by myata

[PIK]

Its not perfect , but it's the best system. Just the last 8 yrs showed the ugly side of it.

[myata]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

but it's the best system

Right because we know.. wait, how exactly?

1 hour ago, PIK said:

Just the last 8 yrs

It's called "the chaos mode". And it won't be wished or ignored away. "Simple" doesn't mean "best". Never in this, real world things that work and survive are promised and guaranteed to be simple.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

radical progressive/woke liberal left policies.

You seem to be trapped by an ideology. The best solutions are pragmatic. It doesn't matter if a solution is right or left, as long as it works. The drawback to democracy is everybody wants government services but they don't want to pay for them, so we have constant deficits. 

 

 

[Legato]

FPTP is a committee of many opposites elected to design a horse and after 2 years ended up with a Camel. As a consensus they decided it could possibly have one or two humps but reserved their decision based upon input from fourteen exploratory sub-committee's.

[myata]

17 minutes ago, Legato said:

horse and after 2 years ended up with a Camel

A good analogy. Totally different people with different ideals and principles are forced together by the sheer need to gain power: really they haven't much or anything else in common. OK three centuries back two may have been better than one absolute ruler. But a dozen generations on doesn't look like a smart or even acceptable idea.

[myata]

One can illustrate the problem with a not purely imaginary situation. The society is uncertain and split between the main parties, around 48-52 margin. "The best of the bad ones", heard that?

Proportional system: the two get similar share of representation, and the other parties more votes and higher share. So the main ones have to explain, convince find compromises, bargain for support. Such novel ideas.

In the FPTP its starkly different: one gets all the representation, all 100% in the pure theory example. Just this one case shows that not only it doesn't make any sense, it's just not sane. The only reason it exists now is that two, three centuries back folks thought that two is better than one (or, Canada style: just copied the other folks' stuff blissfully), and in ten or so generations no one bothered to notice that the time moved.

Then they'll dance and cry about the fake "landslide" mandate and then, shove it down your throat want it or not, what, you "voted".

One thing you can't do now though is to keep wondering and complaining why they are doing that and why it cannot be fixed. Here, explained.

[Queenmandy85]

How do you make a PR system work in Canada. You have 3 or 4 people running for election in your riding. When the votes are counted, A gets 35%, B gets 32%, C gets 17% and D gets 16%. There is just one seat, so how do you proportion that out between the four candidates? Time allotment is difficult because you can't predict the length of a session. Also, with the House of Commons playing musical chairs, the Ministry can never predict its level of confidence. How do you maintain the continuity of legislation with an ever changing face of the commons. So how do you improve on FPTP?

The most important feature of government is stability and the ability to make firm decisions. 

[myata]

33 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

How do you make a PR system work in Canada.

We've been through it. Yes it works in dozens of democracies, including those with diverse local populations. Yes it works. Ignorance is not an explanation neither a virtue. Nonsense, continuation of it, sheer and unadorned cannot be explained rationally. You have only one choice here: either to do away with it; or reject your sanity. Because it just isn't sane, in this time and century.

[blackbird]

38 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

How do you make a PR system work in Canada. You have 3 or 4 people running for election in your riding. When the votes are counted, A gets 35%, B gets 32%, C gets 17% and D gets 16%. There is just one seat, so how do you proportion that out between the four candidates? Time allotment is difficult because you can't predict the length of a session. Also, with the House of Commons playing musical chairs, the Ministry can never predict its level of confidence. How do you maintain the continuity of legislation with an ever changing face of the commons. So how do you improve on FPTP?

The most important feature of government is stability and the ability to make firm decisions. 

The PR system would be disaster for Canada.

The PR system means some MPs are chosen by their political parties, not the voters.  That means they are not accountable to any one riding.  How is that democratic?  The electorate loses their right to choose.   Democracy is far from a perfect system, but allowing the voters in a riding to choose their MP by allowing the one who gets the most votes is sill the fairest system in the world.

The PR systems has the mathematical consequence of making it far more difficult for any one party to win a majority government.  This results in an inability of government to pass some legislation and the government can be paralyzed.

But the main thing is the FPTP system gives every citizen an equal vote as much as possible.  The electorate can see what is happening.  It is a very simple system.  The candidate in a riding who gets the most votes wins.  There is no transferring of votes or having political parties choose some candidates which takes democracy away from the people.

Edited December 15, 2023 by blackbird

[myata]

Not to mention, in this age of information and intelligence, hopefully not only artificial, it cannot trelate to democracy. No. A democratic government requires support of the majority of voters, not some dusty hand trick. There's just no way you can get over this conundrum. Either you have the majority of the votes; or, you cannot be a democratic government. Choose one, at will.

[myata]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

having political parties choose some candidates which takes democracy away from the people.

WTF? Central committees NOT choosing candidates? In what alternative Canada, what universe code? You are funny.

[myata]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This results or an inability of government to pass some legislation and the government can be paralyzed.

What a stupid scary tale.. who peddles it I wonder? Ever heard of a "coalition government"? Yes you don't get to rule singlehandedly no matter what you do and how screw up.. that's such a bad thing (in a democracy") right?

Edited December 15, 2023 by myata

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

A democratic government requires support of the majority of voters,

  Remember there is no system that has the support of the majority of voters because the voters are divided between various parties and beliefs and each party only has the support of a minority of the voters.  Democracy is a far from perfect system because there will always be divisions and differences of beliefs within the country.  Changing the system of voting will not fix that.  The best thing to do is leave the system the way it is so that everyone gets the same value of vote and has the same opportunity to choose their candidate.

[myata]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Remember there is no system that has the support of the majority of voters because the voters are divided between various parties and beliefs and each party only has the support of a minority of the voters.

Read it again, slowly and carefully. Yes you can, I'm sure.

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

WTF? Central committees NOT choosing candidates? In what alternative Canada, what universe code? You are funny.

Sorry, I meant political parties choosing the winners for a certain number of seats in Parliament.  That is what the PR system does.  The parties themselves choose a certain number of the MPs.  That takes away the democratic rights of the voters in a riding to choose the candidates.   

Since such candidates were chosen as the winners by the parties, they are not accountable to any particular riding.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, myata said:

What a stupid scary tale.. who peddles it I wonder? Ever heard of a "coalition government"? Yes you don't get to rule singlehandedly no matter what you do and how screw up.. that's such a bad thing (in a democracy") right?

Coalition governments would likely require more engagement from citizens and a better informed electorate to function, since there would be more elections, more compromises, more deal making and more discussion.

Does that sound like something we are ready for ?

[myata]

Just now, blackbird said:

That is what the PR system does. 

And in this system they are picked by hand, not even by a democratic parliamentary party but a Central Committee of a default management corporation, often unelected and so entirely undemocratic. Like that Trudeau shadow guy who was running his matters behind the curtains. Tell us what's better and more democratic!

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, myata said:

What a stupid scary tale.. who peddles it I wonder? Ever heard of a "coalition government"? Yeah you don't get rule singlehandedly no matter what you do and how screw up.. that's such a bad thing (in a democracy") right?

The PR system results in more fringe political parties having MPs in Parliament at the expense of the major political parties.  That results in more minority governments.  The party with the most votes is forced to form a coalition with smaller parties.  This is not good.  It means more instability and more difficulty in government doing it's job.  It also means more elections as minority governments generally do not last their full terms.  More expense to the taxpayers.