The mess that is our education system

[Zeitgeist]

Teachers generally work hard, but it has become very clear that the union leaders often have their own agendas and don’t necessarily represent the interests of all or even most members on certain issues.  They are a quasi form of management that enjoy a few extra perks and a big megaphone.   

[BeaverFever]

My wife and most of her friends are public and catholic board teachers at different schools and communities around the GTA

Ive never heard any stories such the on described in the OP. I definitely hear about kids who are behaviours or are very low but not the “blackboard jungle” scenario presented. The biggest problem for the teachers is time and physical resources managing so many kids th way they’ve let class sizes get so big. 

Many parents simply don’t give AF about how their kids perform, especially the fathers. It’s not so much divided along racial or cultural lines as it is socioeconomic. Blue collar/working class, low income families are less likely to care about academics or have any goals ambitions for their kids. Naturally, immigrants and people of colour are over represented in this economic category but plenty of “white” people also. Even among the more affluent there are kids whose parents are just clueless like in the case of one particular obese kid who is academically low-ish and comes to school with a 1L of pop, multiple chocolate bars and either a personal-sized restaurant pizza or McDonalds for lunch everyday. Homework and schoolwork rarely completed but much of or is laziness and lack of discipline. Basically has what my wife calls “parent-induced ADHD” from all the junk food tv and video games they let him gorge on 24-7

Edited November 2, 2023 by BeaverFever

[herbie]

The Parent's Rights candidate for School Board came knocking this afternoon and I sent her packing. a friend who taught both my kids is running against her.
He actually went to uni and got some degrees and has taught for over 20 years so he has a clue what he's doing.

Whereas some redneck Bible thumping 'mommy' has none whatsoever. Last time I encountered her she was petitioning to ban sex ed in the High School a decade ago. And didn't know hubby was boning the 16 yr old daughter she was out to 'protect' at the time.

[BeaverFever]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Teachers generally work hard, but it has become very clear that the union leaders often have their own agendas and don’t necessarily represent the interests of all or even most members on certain issues.  They are a quasi form of management that enjoy a few extra perks and a big megaphone.   

I’ve not heard about evil union leaders ruining or even managing anything - the management is the school boards domain. 
 

That said there are plenty of teachers who suck and/or don’t give AF but there’s nothing anyone can do about it as long as they aren’t violating any rules and they’re doing the bare minimum because it’s a unionized job.  That said there are also many teachers with multiple university degrees in the field of education and care deeply, some of whom teach at colleges and universities, and coach other teachers  so there is a mix  

Also the school boards are rats nests of shameless nepotism. Everyone in management and administration is somebody’s niece or son or friend or spouse. It’s really bad. I don’t know why we need local school boards in the 21st century anyway. Just merge it into one board run by professionals not local carpet-bagging politicians. 

[BeaverFever]

16 minutes ago, herbie said:

And didn't know hubby was boning the 16 yr old daughter she was out to 'protect' at the time.

Wow I haven’t heard anything about Vic Toews since he left the Harper government. Glad to hear the ex-wife is keeping busy. 

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I’ve not heard about evil union leaders ruining or even managing anything - the management is the school boards domain. 
 

That said there are plenty of teachers who suck and/or don’t give AF but there’s nothing anyone can do about it as long as they aren’t violating any rules and they’re doing the bare minimum because it’s a unionized job.  That said there are also many teachers with multiple university degrees in the field of education and care deeply, some of whom teach at colleges and universities, and coach other teachers  so there is a mix  

Also the school boards are rats nests of shameless nepotism. Everyone in management and administration is somebody’s niece or son or friend or spouse. It’s really bad. I don’t know why we need local school boards in the 21st century anyway. Just merge it into one board run by professionals not local carpet-bagging politicians. 

Teachers’ unions have a lot of power.  Boards respect collective agreements.  However, the union leadership are always radical left.  Always.  They push gender ideology and the worst aspects of woke cancel culture.  Yes some teachers are lousy.  Yes some nepotism exists, but it’s not so much about family connections as kissing up and supporting the top brass.  Trustees also have a ridiculous amount of power and influence.  They don’t deserve it.  

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

They push gender ideology and the worst aspects of woke cancel culture.  

Believe it or not, I DO empathize with "old school" thinkers who are left behind by the new identity politics, having friends and family in this group.

But people who rail against gender "ideology" tend to ignore the fact that transgender people are a recognized group legally, and that the system has always taught inclusion. 

If you want things changed, you need to be specific.  People are starting to recognize that the opposition to SOGI has been very vague and overstates their case.

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Believe it or not, I DO empathize with "old school" thinkers who are left behind by the new identity politics, having friends and family in this group.

But people who rail against gender "ideology" tend to ignore the fact that transgender people are a recognized group legally, and that the system has always taught inclusion. 

If you want things changed, you need to be specific.  People are starting to recognize that the opposition to SOGI has been very vague and overstates their case.

 

It’s the opposite actually.  Trans rights are taking precedence over women’s rights, religious rights, and the right to free speech.  If someone gets a legal gender change (the question of whether it’s possible to change gender is a matter of opinion not based in science, but the legal requirement to adhere to gender recognition is enshrined), that’s one thing.  We can obey the law and move on.  Only it doesn’t end there.  We have gender affirmation without parental knowledge, and it holds even if someone on a whim declares today, I’m another gender. It doesn’t end there.  Now some boards are dehumanizing boys and girls by no longer referring to their gender using grammatical and biological pronouns. That’s compelled speech and it’s enforced gender ideology.  People are adhering to this out of fear.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, herbie said:

Whereas some redneck Bible thumping 'mommy' has none whatsoever. Last time I encountered her she was petitioning to ban sex ed in the High School a decade ago.

7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. "  Galatians 6:7

"29  Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools. "  Proverbs 19:29

Edited November 2, 2023 by blackbird

[BeaverFever]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Teachers’ unions have a lot of power.  Boards respect collective agreements.  However, the union leadership are always radical left.  Always.  They push gender ideology and the worst aspects of woke cancel culture.  Yes some teachers are lousy.  Yes some nepotism exists, but it’s not so much about family connections as kissing up and supporting the top brass.  Trustees also have a ridiculous amount of power and influence.  They don’t deserve it.  

I think there’s a lot of empty baseless rhetoric in your comment. Unions don’t have any power to “push” anything that’s not in the collective bargaining agreement and and CBAs usually don’t have much to do with the course content as they do with the teachers working conditions. What you would call “woke cancel culture”  etc is coming from many places including school boards themselves and the provincial ministry.
 

In the school boards out here there is definitely rampant nepotism not just amongst family members but also friends, for example recently there was a high profile promotion within the school board where we could clearly see on Facebook that the person promoting and the person getting promoted are long term friends with many photos of them taking vacations together. In other cases people are known to be dating or married or ex-spouses of each other etc. The whole board just operates like a big unprofessional family business at the top and I’m sure other boards aren’t that different. 

[Zeitgeist]

24 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I think there’s a lot of empty baseless rhetoric in your comment. Unions don’t have any power to “push” anything that’s not in the collective bargaining agreement and and CBAs usually don’t have much to do with the course content as they do with the teachers working conditions. What you would call “woke cancel culture”  etc is coming from many places including school boards themselves and the provincial ministry.
 

In the school boards out here there is definitely rampant nepotism not just amongst family members but also friends, for example recently there was a high profile promotion within the school board where we could clearly see on Facebook that the person promoting and the person getting promoted are long term friends with many photos of them taking vacations together. In other cases people are known to be dating or married or ex-spouses of each other etc. The whole board just operates like a big unprofessional family business at the top and I’m sure other boards aren’t that different. 

Not true at all.  Unions push a lot that has little to do with the collective agreements.  Perhaps this isn’t as much the case where you are, but in my province education is politicized beyond redemption.  

[ExFlyer]

21 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Of course, this leaves out the fact the Ministry of Education sets the curriculum and can order the school boards to do whatever it wants done. And it leaves out the ideological teachings of teachers colleges and universities which produce the educrats who wind up populating the higher positions at all school boards as well as the Ministry of Education.

Yada, yada, yada.....and the local school boards do what they want to appease the population in their area.

[ExFlyer]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I actually know a lot about this for reasons I can’t share.  You’re right that some education policies are set locally, but not provincial curriculum.  Much can be adjusted at the provincial level, but activists have infiltrated the Ministry and most school boards.  

I didn't think this discussion was about provincial curriculum but rather social and discipline and bad attitudes and on and on and on.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. Trans rights are taking precedence over women’s rights, religious rights, and the right to free speech.  

1. Two points: the courts are working through what 'trans rights' mean in our legal system.  There will be trade-offs as there are when rights are granted to newly defined groups. That includes the right to 'free speech'.   


But I think I will stop there because the point you're making doesn't seem to me to be 'the opposite' of what I said. You're going into the details of some of the issues, whereas I was talking high level.   I stated that the SOGI protests overstate their case - maybe you are disputing that.  If so, I can give you lots of examples from the Facebook group supporting the protests.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Two points: the courts are working through what 'trans rights' mean in our legal system.  There will be trade-offs as there are when rights are granted to newly defined groups. That includes the right to 'free speech'.   


But I think I will stop there because the point you're making doesn't seem to me to be 'the opposite' of what I said. You're going into the details of some of the issues, whereas I was talking high level.   I stated that the SOGI protests overstate their case - maybe you are disputing that.  If so, I can give you lots of examples from the Facebook group supporting the protests.

I’m quite aware of the arguments on both sides of the debate.  The pro-SOGI exclaim that it’s about protecting gay and trans rights and preventing bullying and depression.  The anti-SOGO claim that the prevalence of pride flags, gender affirmation, and excluding parents from student information are indoctrination, statist, and a trampling of other rights.  Schools can prevent bullying on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, respect legal gender transition identifiers, and keep parents in the loop (except where abuse is suspected) without removing the use of male and female pronouns, requiring the raising of pride flags, or teaching elementary students about alternative genders in the curriculum.  Even the mention of diverse sexuality can be left to older grades.  It doesn’t mean that if students ask the teach can’t respond factually, at least to older students.  Not sure what the age should be, but it’s not going to be perfect.

I also agree that the trans definition needs clarification.  I think it must remain a third category, as biological sex can’t change except in the performative sense.  Basically we agree to pretend up to the point of men’s and women’s sports and communal male or female washrooms.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

22 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1.  The pro-SOGI exclaim that it’s about protecting gay and trans rights and preventing bullying and depression.  The anti-SOGO claim that the prevalence of pride flags, gender affirmation, and excluding parents from student information are indoctrination, statist, and a trampling of other rights.  

2. Schools can prevent bullying on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, respect legal gender transition identifiers, and keep parents in the loop (except where abuse is suspected) without removing the use of male and female pronouns, requiring the raising of pride flags, or teaching elementary students about alternative genders in the curriculum.   Even the mention of diverse sexuality can be left to older grades.  It doesn’t mean that if students ask the teach can’t respond factually, at least to older students.  Not sure what the age should be, but it’s not going to be perfect.

3. I also agree that the trans definition needs clarification.  I think it must remain a third category, as biological sex can’t change except in the performative sense.  Basically we agree to pretend up to the point of men’s and women’s sports and communal male or female washrooms.  

1. Yes that summarizes the debate.
2.  Ok - now you are being specific.  That's all I'm asking for.  I'm not going to debate the specifics of your points - some of which I agree with and some I don't.  
3. Some of what you're talking about isn't strictly decided at the classroom or even Ministry of Education level though, as they will defer to legal and mental health experts.  If you are going to the school, board of education, or Ministry and asking them to do something that their professionals don't agree with they will side with them not you.

[blackbird]

It is shocking and concerning that someone like the person in this article would be appointed to such high positions by the Biden administration.  Just proves how badly America has fallen.

quote

Dr. Rachel Levine was appointed by President Joe Biden in October as a four-star admiral, the highest-ranking official in the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. Dr. Levine also serves as the HHS Assistant Secretary for Health. Levine’s background is as a pediatrician. In a rich bit of irony, not only is Levine the first transgender person to serve in the uniformed health service as a four-star senior officer but is also the first “woman” to serve in that capacity.

Until age 53, Rachel Levine lived life as a man. Richard Levine was born with all-male parts and with male chromosomes. In 2011 however, he decided he was a she. A divorce followed, but so did Levine’s public fortunes. Levine served in public health positions in Pennsylvania for several years to mixed reviews. 

One gay advocacy publication describes Dr. Levine this way, “Dr. Rachel Levine is very much regarded in the fields of pediatrics, psychiatry and social well being…” They neglect to mention that Dr. Levine has advocated for allowing persons who are below the age of sexual consent to get hormone blockers and genital mutilation, causing irreversible damage.

In other words, the new four-star admiral and HHS Assistant Secretary for Health believes your thirteen-year-old is too young to consent to sexual intercourse but is old enough and mature enough to make life-altering decisions on taking hormone inhibitors to prevent normal puberty and to get surgery removing or altering his or her genitalia, without parental consent.    unquote

Transgenderism: It's time to state the obvious - Washington Times

If you believe a person can be biologically born as a male and live as male until age 53, and then suddenly decide he is a she, I've got some property I can sell you ....

Edited November 2, 2023 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:10 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I know a bunch of teachers, you're posting pure b******* and lies and you know it.

Conversation over.

No links, but everything is terrible and the world's ending.

Can the moderator just ban the chicken Little or do we have to read garbage from someone who's clearly intelligent enough to know better?

Well that was the grown up thing to do.... it seems you've embraced this whole cancel culture thing with both arms...you've gone to one of the level headed guys here on this forum to a screaming Karen all in less than 5 lines...

Must be a hot button of yours, perhaps I'm think you are a teacher and don't take criticism very well....either way the rest of the cancel culture thanks you for approaching this topic with well thought out responses...

And the line i know a bunch of teachers is a classic, i know a bunch of teachers as well, my dick is bigger than yours, my dad can kick your dads ass....in the end none of those sentences make a lick of difference in this topic....but thanks for your contribution

He has posted 2 links , i guess that is not enough....how many more do you want ?...to acknowledge that there may be a problem in our education system....

maybe we don't need a moderator, maybe you need to take a break...

[herbie]

Once again show your preoccupation with trannies and wokeness and the typical ignorance that 'extreme left' teachers unions make school board decision you're showing exactly the reason you should have little influence. You're the one wishing to 'indocrinate' kids.

The school system is there to teach your kids how to deal with the world that exists today. not some delusion of what the world was 70 years ago.

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Yes that summarizes the debate.
2.  Ok - now you are being specific.  That's all I'm asking for.  I'm not going to debate the specifics of your points - some of which I agree with and some I don't.  
3. Some of what you're talking about isn't strictly decided at the classroom or even Ministry of Education level though, as they will defer to legal and mental health experts.  If you are going to the school, board of education, or Ministry and asking them to do something that their professionals don't agree with they will side with them not you.

I don’t think there’s as much expertise or consensus among the “experts” as you indicate.  There’s a debate about how fluid gender really is and how much people claiming non-biological genders should be affirmed and afforded rights that clash with other rights.  I think for every doctor who claims that gender can be treated away with drugs and surgery, you will find many more who say it’s not that simple.  Similarly on the psychological front, some will be all in on affirming how one identifies today on one end of the spectrum because it’s good to be told one is correct under any circumstance and others who say that trying to defy biological reality is psychologically damaging because it’s an unnatural, dishonest account of reality.  One is free to have an opinion but there will limits to how far the biological realists can be pushed to pretend to see the world other than they see it.  Making people lie and violate their beliefs isn’t going to fly in a democracy for long, nor will many competitive female athletes or modest women swallow having trans people in their change rooms or on their swim teams.  You don’t get your fantasy indulged to that degree in a reasonably run society.