Hamas Attacks Israel

[WestCanMan]

6 hours ago, cannuck said:

All of these things you are saying about Palestinians could also be said of Israelis.   This all started when the Slimey Limeys needed the technical support of a prominent Zionist chemist in WWI and Lord Balfour of UK wrote a letter to Lord Rothschild recognizing the biblical rights of Jews to Israel as their homeland.  It had nothing to do with the 1800 year exile of Jews from their homeland, he just wanted the skills of a guy who could make gunpowder from sources not in Germany.  What was so cheekey about Balfour was that the place he suggested could become the Jewish homeland (Palestine) was not an actual state but part of the Ottoman empire - that he certainly did not speak for!

Day 1, IMHO was the San Remo Conference in 1920.  That was when and where the victors of WWI divied up the spoils and defined what was to become the 22 Arab League states and formerly declared the UK as in control of the region and giving Palestine over as the homeland of the Jewish people.   This was recognized (if not ratified) by the League of Nations.   Worth noting that NOBODY from the Arab world was "at the table" in San Remo...and IMHO THAT defines the point at which Arabs were justifiably pissed off with pretty much anyone that was supporting the displacement of Palestinians from what had been their homeland for 1800 years. By the time of UN resolution 181 in 1947 declared the division of territory into a Palestinian state and a Jewish state, the Arabs who had NEVER agreed to any of this crap being imposed upon them by foreign powers were at war with their Jewish counterparts, so I guess you are right that the Palestinians have been violently opposed for some time.   When Israel declared statehood that intensified and by the time it settled down Israel had taken land that was FORMALLY by UN part of the Palestinian state.   I don't think very many Palestinians were negotiated and purchased out of their homes (some actually were but from what I understand not very many) but were displaced violently from their homes.   Also many Arabs were now stranded in Israel.   Not exactly something they were going to diplomatically resolve with Israel.

Then there are the "settlements" where Israel has illegally been putting down stakes inside of what is officially NOT their territory.   Not saying any of this can justify the actions of Hamas, but I hope you can see why Palestinian Arabs don't feel all that cozy with Jews and foreigners who have stepped in and in their view stolen their homeland.

So: I get back to my original question - how far back are times of occupancy reason to lay claims to jurisdiction and ownership of territory today?   This has many other times and places that need to know the answer.

1) Israel was formed the exact same way Pakistan was, at the exact same time (9 months apart). If Israel has no right to exist then neither does Pakistan. Both of the new countries had a mix of their new religion, which formed their gov't, and people of other religions. There were ten times as many Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan as there were muslims in Israel. 

2) All the Arab nations have normal relations with Pakistan, after they committed two massive genocides (both larger than the population of Gaza), yet somehow they consider the Israelis to be "war criminals and illegal occupiers". Compared to Pakistan, Israel is close to perfect. They'd have to slaughter 5M civilians to catch up. 

3) It's laughable to talk about "Palestine" as entirely muslim for 1,800 years. Where did you get that from? They weren't the majority there until the 1100s, but other populations were there as well that whole time. 

4) It's a false narrative that the Jews in Israel came from Europe, a lot of them were forced out of other countries in the ME when the Arab nations joined up with Hitler in the early 1940s. Some of the Jewish citizens from those countries went directly to Israel, some briefly lived in European countries but moved to Israel after that country was formed. 

If you're correct then 2 massive genocides in Pakistan were ok but Israelis shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves when they're attacked by Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon along with solders from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey, and the Israelis shouldn't be allowed to arrest terrorists. 

 

[Canadian_Cavalier]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:25 AM, Nationalist said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/world-reacts-surprise-attack-by-hamas-israel-2023-10-07/

My solution. Level Gaza.!

Why not peace with Hamas and have Israel give some of their land to them? That is what you always advocated in Ukraine. You're sounding like an evil neocon!!!

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Legato said:

Okay. Then which country would be willing to take them?

You would have to ask a bunch of Arab states who would rank where on that list when it comes to absorbing Palestinians.  Irrelevant as they already HAVE their own territory.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, cannuck said:

I now understand how isolated from reality you are crouched at your keyboard in your Mother's basement. 

Awwwww punkin - you can't make  an intelliegent argument so you resort to this   It must be so emotionally draining to be a jew hater like yourself these days

Well thanks for telling us you know i'm right without telling us.
 

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 Over the years, there have been a significant number of Palestinians who dared to offer their support to Israel in rooting out Hamas.  They were severely dealt with in the same uncaring and viscious ways by Hamas and wonder of wonder, nobody in Gaza any longer seems willing to help Israel deal with Hamas/ISIL. 

So then you're saying the entire gaza population is hamas's meat shield.

That's to bad - but at the end of the day that means hamas is getting them killed, not isreal.

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 Anybody who bothers to learn a bit about the Middle East seems to know this, but you seem gleefully happy to ignore the facts and reality.

Here's the facts and reality. None of what you're saying makes a damn bit of difference.  it is you who is ignoring the facts and reality - at the end of the day no matter what the reason is, no matter what the backstory, right now gaza is used as a platform to launch vicious and violent attacks against isreal and isreal really only has the choice of accepting hundreds of it's people will be slaughtered viciously on a regular basis OR wipe the threat out.

And you're literally saying that there's nothing the people there can do - it will never get better, it's basically an armed hamas camp where they do what they're told and always will be.  So -   Scatter them to the winds and bulldoze the land, Problem solved

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Just for reference: I have spent a fair bit of time in MENA and have very  good friends within the Arab world.  Also my ancestors include a Morgenstern branch of the family.

Is THAT why you hate jews?

For reference they killed canadians too. 

Those people picked the fight - it's time to end it and it only ends with the destruction of gaza. Did you have another way? No ?  Thought not.  Let them burn,

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

Why not peace with Hamas and have Israel give some of their land to them? That is what you always advocated in Ukraine. You're sounding like an evil neocon!!!

there is no peace with hamas. Their entire existance is based on death to isreal. And anyone who uses the term 'neocon' like that is clearly a political m0R0n of the highest order.

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

You would have to ask a bunch of Arab states who would rank where on that list when it comes to absorbing Palestinians.  Irrelevant as they already HAVE their own territory.

Not for long i suspect.

[cannuck]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1) Israel was formed the exact same way Pakistan was, at the exact same time (9 months apart). If Israel has no right to exist then neither does Pakistan.

If you're correct then 2 massive genocides in Pakistan were ok but Israelis shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves when they're attacked by Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon along with solders from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey, and the Israelis shouldn't be allowed to arrest terrorists. 

 

As I have clearly stated, but some readers don't seem to comprehend:  I can not and will not choose "sides" in this matter.   There is enough bad blood to go around for both parties.

Israel and Pakistan were created by the same mechanism, but not for the same reasons.  While Israel exists legally, so does Palestine, but the "settlers" are a clear violation of that sovereignty.   What it comes down to, once again as I have clearly stated is how far back occupancy confers "rights" to territory somewhere down the road.  If it is in the 2k year range, Israel is "right" morally and ethically.   That then begs the question of how much further back one can go and that applies to the rest of the world.

Edited October 16, 2023 by cannuck

[BeaverFever]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:23 PM, Perspektiv said:

Babies beheaded.

Just stating for the record that as of today Israel still can’t confirm any rumours of children or babies being beheaded. Certainly no such bodies have been found and AFAIK all bodies have been found. . Some news outlets and public figures have already walked back these claims. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by BeaverFever

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

As I have clearly stated, but some readers don't seem to comprehend:  I can not and will not choose "sides" in this matter.   There is enough bad blood to go around for both parties.

But you have chosen sides: you pretended that Israel could have chosen "peace" if they wanted to. That's an outright lie.

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Israel and Pakistan were created by the same mechanism, but not for the same reasons.  While Israel exists legally, so does Palestine, but the "settlers" are a clear violation of that sovereignty. 

Pakistanis kicked out/murdered 7-11 million people.  

Are you suggesting that the Israelis should have killed so many Palestinians that the ones who remained only made up 2% of the population? 

The Pakistani solution was pure evil. The Israeli situation, even today, is far better than what happened in Pakistan. Muslims should be able to accept Israel right now if they accept Pakistan. 

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 What it comes down to, once again as I have clearly stated is how far back occupancy confers "rights" to territory somewhere down the road.  If it is in the 2k year range, Israel is "right" morally and ethically.   That then begs the question of how much further back one can go and that applies to the rest of the world.

Can you find Pakistan on a map from 1945 or earlier? 

Can you tell me what actual justification there was for murdering/expelling 7-11M people from Pakistan? 

Can you tell me where the Sikh/Hindu refugee camps have been hiding for the last 70 years? 

Can you tell me why there have been 700,000 Palestinians living in refugee camps for 70 years? Germany allowed that many Syrians into their country in one year... How is it that they couldn't find a home in the last 70 years? Why don't islamic nations take in any islamic refugees? 

The whole concept of "Israel needs to be wiped off the map" is horrific. The whole concept of "Israel had the chance to choose peace if they wanted to" is garbage.  

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Just stating for the record that as of today Israel still can’t confirm any rumours of children or babies being beheaded. Certainly no such bodies have been found and AFAIK all bodies have been found. . Some news outlets and public figures have already walked back these claims. 

I already posted the link to it for the other loser making that claim.  For the record.

[Zijlstra]

May they both find success in their efforts to destroy each other

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Zijlstra said:

May they both find success in their efforts to destroy each other

Well that usually historically turns out to be a zero sum game - there's usually a winner and a loser so to speak.  I"m not liking hamas's chances  

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So then you're saying the entire gaza population is hamas's meat shield.

All your doing here is condoning Israel's collective punishment of a civilian population - a war crime. Avenging an atrocity with an atrocity.

 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

All your doing here is condoning Israel's collective punishment of a civilian population - a war crime. Avenging an atrocity with an atrocity.

 

It's not about punishment.  Like i said, if the dog gets rabies you don't let it sleep in the kid's room. Even if you love the dog and wish things were different.

Nor do i think that they need to try to kill any more civvies than absolutely necessary,  like i said this isn't about revenge.

But they cannot allow gaza to exist any more. there will never ever be peace.  So - that threat has to be eliminated and unforthately that probably means scattering a few million people around the world and turning the place into a big parking lot.

The OTHER choice is to let a few thousand of your own people get killed every few years or so when hamas decides they feel like it - and they ALWAYS decide that sooner or later.  There can be no peace.

Hey - if you've got a kinder method lets here it - but one thing's absolutely for sure, if those people stay there will never be peace. They are bent on the destruction of isreal and not just 'hamas'.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

It's not about punishment.  Like i said,

Yes it's always about what you said. Thankfully that means squat compared to universal conventions on human rights and war crimes.

 

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Hey - if you've got a kinder method lets here it - 

Putting the brakes on the meaner methods you prescribe would be my first order of business.

Then seek out more moderate voices and provide them the forum's they need to begin moving things forward in.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Yes it's always about what you said.

Yes - when we're talking about what I meant, it's always about what i said. I know you'd love for what i meant to be about what YOU said but that's not how it works

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Thankfully that means squat compared to universal conventions on human rights and war crimes.

It means a great deal. If you thought public opinion was not a major factor in such things you're even dumber than i thought - and that would be an impressive accomplishment.

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Putting the brakes on the meaner methods you prescribe would be my first order of business.

Then seek out more moderate voices and provide them the forum's they need to begin moving things forward in.

They tried that - failed.  Hard fail actually.

So what you're saying is you don't have an alternate. 

so ... you can't think of anything .... nothing else they've done works... the palestinians aren't interested in finding anything, they just want isreal dead and always have.....

I think you just made my case for me.

 

[Perspektiv]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

there is no peace with hamas. Their entire existance is based on death to isreal.

Exactly. You can't negotiate with a terrorist. Its literally impossible.

They follow no rules, and goals are to destroy their enemy. Peace isn't part of their plan.

You should both ultimately want peace , if you are to have a chance to negotiate a point to where it can be put on the table.

[Nationalist]

13 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

Why not peace with Hamas and have Israel give some of their land to them? That is what you always advocated in Ukraine. You're sounding like an evil neocon!!!

They tried that and got attacked. You don't follow world events very closely do you.

[WestCanMan]

18 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

Why not peace with Hamas and have Israel give some of their land to them? That is what you always advocated in Ukraine. You're sounding like an evil neocon!!!

The Israelis have tried that. They've tried a lot of things, but just remember that 'trying' means "taking a chance that your attempt will backfire". And it always backfires.

Understand the muslim mindset: when they are the majority in a land, they consider non-muslims less than, and it's enforcement through laws, taxation, dress code, everything... That comes from Mohammeds own teachings, it's no joke. 

Diehard Muslims can never accept that Jews hold part of the Holy land and mae the laws there. It's like saying "maybe we're not better than everyone else. Allah was wrong."

 That's why there have been Palestinian refugees for 70 years... They will never let their claim that "This is our land and you're illegal occupiers" go away. They will always make war against Israel, just like they'll always accept Pakistan committing genocide against lesser religions. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Pictures of dead children reported recently as Israeli victims of Hamas attack were not Israelis bur Syrian children from 2013

 

 

Zionists fooled you one more time. 

How can I believe anything else they may claim?

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Pictures of dead children reported recently as Israeli victims of Hamas attack were not Israelis bur Syrian children from 2013

 

 

Zionists fooled you one more time. 

How can I believe anything else they may claim?

Sure they were.  No civillians died in the hamas attack.  in fact, hamas stopped in the middle of the attack to help an elderly lady across the street and got her cat out of  a tree.

Sigh.  the mental gymnastics of the terrorist-appologists.

Edited October 16, 2023 by CdnFox

[CITIZEN_2015]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sure they were.  No civillians died in the hamas attack.  in fact, hamas stopped in the middle of the attack to help an elderly lady across the street and got her cat out of  a tree.

Sigh.  the mental gymnastics of the terrorist-appologists.

Hamas did kill lots of innocent civilians most of them Israelis and for that its fighters must be eliminated as they are guiltily of crimes against defenseless people. All I said is that pictures of beheaded children or dead children or rapes may have been faked by Israeli influenced news media in order to prepare the world opinion for genocide against defenseless Palestinian civilians.

Israel has said elimination of Hamas at any cost. If the cost include thousands more civilian dead, I do not accept it.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Centres for democracy and human rights like France and Germany BANNED pro Palestine (not pro Hamas) gatherings and demonstrations and ordered police to violently attack them.

 

 

Shows how powerful Zionists are. Palestinians of course hated and alone in the whole world again thanks to Zionists demonizing them.

Edited October 16, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CdnFox]

32 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Hamas did kill lots of innocent civilians most of them Israelis

That's where the story ends.

Children were killed. That is confirmed. Women were killed. That is confirmed.

Your pathetic attempt to downplay it by saying "oh well there's some doubt as to whether the children were shot or beheaded so maybe it's not SOOO bad" is beyond disgusting.

Oh, and you're little "We should punish the fighters who did it" line.  As if they're the only ones responsible.  As if this happened in a vaccume.

We should "punsih" them - and we should also hold to account the political org that sent them - and the people who put that political org into power and sat idly by over YEARS while they preached the destruction of isreal.

But most importantly eliminate the threat of it happening again.

Disgusting to watch you attempt to 'minimize' their crimes like that.

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Centres for democracy and human rights like France and Germany BANNED pro Palestine (not pro Hamas) gatherings and demonstrations and ordered police to violently attack them.

Shows how powerful Zionists are. Palestinians of course hated and alone in the whole world again thanks to Zionists demonizing them.

Pro palestinian IS pro hamas. They're the same thing.

I strongly disagree with banning protests and demonstrations (assuming they're peaceful and not breaking the law) regardless.

I have to wonder tho - how would those demonstrators feel if people were in the streets celebrating the palestinian deaths.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Sure they were.  No civillians died in the hamas attack.  in fact, hamas stopped in the middle of the attack to help an elderly lady across the street and got her cat out of  a tree.

Sigh.  the mental gymnastics of the terrorist-appologists.

Information these silly fops got from none other than that sick POS Ilan Omar. A b1tch who should be deported for her blatant abuses.

BTW...I understand she had to take down the post of the dead children. The B1tch has the moral standing of a worm.