Hamas Attacks Israel

[WestCanMan]

Here's a cartoon that's making the rounds on FB:

Pro-Hamas propagandists LOVE that photo of the woman crying, holding the dying child.

Hamas started this war just to get that photo op, even though they knew that they wouldn't win the actual war.

The reason that they love seeing that dead baby so much is that it generates hatred. It stokes their religious bigotry.

Then they deny the murders of Israeli children, and act like targeting women and children is beneath them.

Did they hnestly think that the rockets they fired into Israel had magic explosives that only kill men and women? Did they think that buildings collapsed by their rockets or fires started by their blessed mujahideed wouldn't kill children?

 

Should that woman condemn Hamas? Is it reasonable to expect that she would only blame the Israelis for that? 

The Israelis aren't the one whose soldiers hide in bunkers while their women are children are up on the street dying. 

[cannuck]

On 10/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, eyeball said:

Hamas didn't even exist in 1948. It was England and it's allies that started it, why?

Because countries like Canada wanted nothing to do with Jewish refugees.

Almost right.  It actually started in 1917 when Lord Balfour wrote to Lord Rothschild (a Zionist) telling him England should give Jews a homeland in Palestine - all because England couldn't get enough acetone (almost all made in Germany at that time) to make enough gunpowder - but a prominent Zionist scientist could extract from IIRC walnuts.  When the San Remo conference of 1920 was divying up the spoils and territories captured by the allied forces they gave admin of Palestine to UK and declared the Balfour letter to be policy.  This was then re-iterated by the League of Nations and then the new United Nations after WWII.

If blame needs to be spread around: it really goes back to Rome in 135/6 who threw the Jews out of their homeland.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

If blame needs to be spread around: it really goes back to Rome in 135/6 who threw the Jews out of their homeland.

This dredging of ancient history only perpetuates the conflict and worse it only justifies and permits other countries to start wars and base invasions on flimsy pretences. There's plenty enough justification within the living memory of three or four generations and records of existing institutions to go on.

 

[sharkman]

Biden gave Iran over 6 billion in the last month.  Obama gave them a similar amount.  Does anybody see a trend here?

Now Iran starts up hostilities with Israel, who is going to bomb them back to the Stone Age before Christmas, is my guess.  I wonder what the headlines will read then?

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

This dredging of ancient history only perpetuates the conflict and worse it only justifies and permits other countries to start wars and base invasions on flimsy pretences.

 

Correct.'  And anything more than about 15 years ago at this point is ancient history.  It does not matter one drop what happened in 1948.  There is no relevance to anyting that happened in the 50's or 60s either, or the 70's or the 80's. etc.

Israel isn't going anywhere.  At this point that's just the way it is.  IF they "Stole" the land in some people's minds - they did so successfully, they've got it now and that's not changing.

So the choice now is how are we moving forward.  There's really two choices - find a way to live in peace and do what you can to make each other stronger, or live in conflict and try to kill each other.  Nothing else matters - that is the decision that can be made today. Don't care about the romans - here's where we're at, cope with it.

Gaza for whatever reason has chosen that they do not want to  live in peace.  They want to live in conflict and kill jews whenever possible.

So.  Today - no matter what history says, no matter who did what to who's grandad, TODAY this ends one way - either with israeli victory or with gaza's.  And gaza can't win.

So. Gaza made it's decision. All that can happen now is that the war be concluded probably with the completed defeat of gaza and the permanent elimination of that threat.

 

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Correct.'  And anything more than about 15 years ago at this point is ancient history.

No that's clearly recent history. The issues are broader and deeper than that. As I said earlier I think the living history and memory of 3-4 generations would be more appropriate.

It should be however long a period the negotiators agree to.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

No that's clearly recent history.

Nope - it's old and irrelevant.

Today isreal exists and is not going anywhere.  The fact someone remembers a day when that wasn't true is utterly meaningless.

Live in the present or die in the past.  Unfortunately many many Gazans have chosen the latter it would seem.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Today isreal exists and is not going anywhere.

Nope. It's stuck where it is like everyone else.

[CdnFox]

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

Nope. It's stuck where it is like everyone else.

So if they can't find a way to live together - one's got to go.  And that seems to be where they're at.

[eyeball]

25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

one's got to go.

Which is where they started.

[CdnFox]

52 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Which is where they started.

Not where they started this war.  The people of gaza made a decision today.  Not in 1948 or any other time

but it's where we are. I hear that isreal is already floating papers about where to resettle the people.  Canada came up of course  

[Nationalist]

6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Not where they started this war.  The people of gaza made a decision today.  Not in 1948 or any other time

but it's where we are. I hear that isreal is already floating papers about where to resettle the people.  Canada came up of course  

Oh of course...and I'm sure Pixie-Dust would beg for them to come here.

We agree that Israel needs to wipe Gaza out and take the land. They never really had a choice and now they're walking into a trap.

However...having debated the Israeli situation many times, I think the Zionism of these descendents of Central European Jews...the Ashkenazi tribe...has always been as unpalatable as NAZI Germany. The way these Palestinians were and still are treated is...abrasive to the senses.

Be that as it may...

Israel is in a bit of doo doo. It faces a 2-front war with Arabs who genuinely hate their guts.

What is ironic is that most Arabs don't have much use for Palestinians either.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Oh of course...and I'm sure Pixie-Dust would beg for them to come here.

We agree that Israel needs to wipe Gaza out and take the land. They never really had a choice and now they're walking into a trap.

However...having debated the Israeli situation many times, I think the Zionism of these descendents of Central European Jews...the Ashkenazi tribe...has always been as unpalatable as NAZI Germany. The way these Palestinians were and still are treated is...abrasive to the senses.

Be that as it may...

Israel is in a bit of doo doo. It faces a 2-front war with Arabs who genuinely hate their guts.

What is ironic is that most Arabs don't have much use for Palestinians either.

I think the threat from other countries is pretty manageable.  with the SLIGHT but far from total exception of iran, they all get their military hardware from Russia. For obvious reasons russia is not going to be able to spare a craptonne of tanks, air defense, planes or other critical systems right now.  The us however will have bucket loads of gear on the next ship and Ukraine can wait a bit.

I think they realize israel is pretty serious this time and it's not a good idea to honk them off too much.

[Peace lover]

A UK perspective:

 

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/foreign-affairs/israeli-palestinian-conflict/

 

[cannuck]

Interesting to see what the media brings to this situation.  Biggest laugh is suiting up reporters in flack vests and helmets to look the part - when the film crew are all in shorts and T shirts.

My wife picked up on another detail yesterday.  Looking at pictures on the streets of Gaza everyone seems to have enough nutrition and water to be alive, wearing clean clothes, speaking on their cell phones, chain smoking cigarettes and DRIVING THEIR CARS.  How do you do that having no food, fuel, water, electricity, etc. for 3 weeks???

[CdnFox]

19 hours ago, Peace lover said:

A UK perspective:

 

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/foreign-affairs/israeli-palestinian-conflict/

 

It's interesting but the fact remains that a 'two state solution' has been sought for nearing 2 decades now and there has been ZERO progress.

It's just not a thing. At the end of the day the Palestinians probably have to go. They refuse to live in peace, and isreal isn't going to tolerate them constantly attacking them.

Two state would be a great solution if both sides could accept each other's right to exist and start to look at ways to peacefully co exist but it is PAINFULLY obvious that is not going to happen.

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It's interesting but the fact remains that a 'two state solution' has been sought for nearing 2 decades now and there has been ZERO progress.

It's just not a thing. At the end of the day the Palestinians probably have to go. They refuse to live in peace, and isreal isn't going to tolerate them constantly attacking them.

Two state would be a great solution if both sides could accept each other's right to exist and start to look at ways to peacefully co exist but it is PAINFULLY obvious that is not going to happen.

As I understand it, Palestine refuses to accept the two state model as that would recognize that Israel exists.  Similarly, Israel would like Palestine to just go away, so there isn't a lot of traction there either.

 

[CdnFox]

12 hours ago, cannuck said:

As I understand it, Palestine refuses to accept the two state model as that would recognize that Israel exists.  Similarly, Israel would like Palestine to just go away, so there isn't a lot of traction there either.

 

Israel is not excited about palestine existing  but they'd be happy with peace. In fact they were into peace negotiatons with the palestine authority right up until that group did a deal with hamas - which was a deal breaker for israel

For israel it's more about trust - they expect that palestine will stab them in the back and so they look for assurances in the form of restrictions and such that palestinians don't like - and that doesn't help. But you could work around that with time and negotiation and without  a doubt as things progress if they're peaceful then everyone relaxes.  Takes a while but doable.

The problem with hamas and it's supporters is as you say - there can be no peace.  They will accept nothing less than the elimination of israel entirely.  NO peace can be possible. They will not accept any result that allows for a jewish state to exist there.

So - there's some room on one side even though it's tricky,  but there's just ZERO on the other. There is no peaceful solution here.

[cannuck]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Israel is not excited about palestine existing  but they'd be happy with peace. In fact they were into peace negotiatons with the palestine authority right up until that group did a deal with hamas - which was a deal breaker for israel

For israel it's more about trust - they expect that palestine will stab them in the back and so they look for assurances in the form of restrictions and such that palestinians don't like - and that doesn't help. But you could work around that with time and negotiation and without  a doubt as things progress if they're peaceful then everyone relaxes.  Takes a while but doable.

The problem with hamas and it's supporters is as you say - there can be no peace.  They will accept nothing less than the elimination of israel entirely.  NO peace can be possible. They will not accept any result that allows for a jewish state to exist there.

So - there's some room on one side even though it's tricky,  but there's just ZERO on the other. There is no peaceful solution here.

Then we have "the Settlers".   Hardly an element of seeking peace.

[CITIZEN_2015]

There will be no solution to Arab-Israeli conflict or the Middle East issues as a whole as lonfg as the the Islamic Republic in Iran is in power. They are the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world esprcially in the Middle East. The West must find the balls to work with Israel to help Iranian people currently in the middle of Woman Life Freedom revolution to topple these fu*king mullahs (Not by military intervention though).

Iranians are not Arabs and after 45 years of Islamic dictatorship they have turned against that backward religion. The want equality for women, life to live and freedom to live it (that is where Woman, Life, Freedom comes from), but the West must stop helping the mullahs (like the recent release of 6 billion dollard to mullahs was a treacherous act by Biden).

Once the head of the snake or Octopus is cut off (Islamic republic) then the legs (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Iraqi and Lebanese Shiites) will die too, The Palestinians will have no support and no choice but to live in peace with Israel (two state solution).

For as long as Islamic Republic is in power there will be war and hate and terrorism and women and children on both sides will die.

Edited November 4, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

An junior Israeli minister got a little out of line here: 

An Israeli minister has said Palestinians should ‘go to Ireland or the deserts’ and that dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is an option, as the Israel-Hamas war enters its fifth week.https://
 

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/11/05/hamas-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts-and-using-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-an-option-says-israel-minister/

He had to later say that his remarks were ‘metaphorical’

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[NAME REMOVED]

On 10/11/2023 at 6:45 PM, ironstone said:

I wonder what the ratio of moderates to murderous fanatics is in Gaza? Doesn't seem like there are too many moderates over there.

We all knew this about the Palestinians ages ago.  They hate Israel and Western Culture more than improving their lives. I knew this when they danced in the streets on 9/11 over 20 years ago.  I mean what kind of warped mindset does one have to celebrate the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians not once but twice?

Now in every Western nation, we see the truth.  These people are just using Israel as a convenience excuse to expose their hatred of our Western way of life. Just look at what is happening at the White House and numerous other Democratic nations as proof. 

[CdnFox]

54 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

An Israeli minister has said Palestinians should ‘go to Ireland or the deserts’

Ireland?!?

 

[NAME REMOVED]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ireland?!?

 

The Israeli member of parliament was probably not being serious. As if the Irish would want that problem, or ever agree to it.

[CdnFox]

15 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

The Israeli member of parliament was probably not being serious. As if the Irish would want that problem, or ever agree to it.

It just seemed oddly specific.  "They could be sent to the desert!! Or the sea!! Or 145B Blakely Crescent in Dublin, ring twice before entering!"