One-way politics

[myata]

It may very well be that we're living through the breakdown of the venerable American democracy. Extreme partisan polarization of politics is a real danger, a grave danger to the democracy and it will work to end it, one way (through a near-total deadlock) or the other (African / South American/ Middle East "stolen election" style).

The problem is clear and present: the process is essentially, one-way. It can get worse; everybody in the right mind can clearly see how it can get worse; but there's no plausible ways in which it could repair itself. It is not possible on purely physical ground, as working against the entropy.

One way out can be proposed and it's a slimmest of the slim chance to prevent the breakdown and enable the necessary change via peaceful and constitutional means: a non-partisan citizens assembly. It will examine the problem, discuss and agree on the solutions and propose them to the parties. Either at least one of them agrees to implement then when in power; or the citizens will have to do away with the both. Else, from here it looks like a straight finish line to a permanent deadlock.

And one more time: a partisan political system is an extreme danger to the society. Ignoring this fact, praying on the past will do nothing, at all to negate it. It has full potential, means and it will destroy the democracy. If they don't know it yet it is only because they want to squeeze dry and a few more times, before it goes dead.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

1)   a non-partisan citizens assembly. It will examine the problem

2) It has full potential, means and it will destroy the democracy. 

1) Well ok but... I would put myself in such a committee and people here would brand me a leftist and say I'm too partisan.

2) I agree.

I think the answer is for us to return to what worked in the past: simplified government operations, trusted public intellectuals to debate the issues on our behalf.

[robosmith]

There is nothing like a strong existential threat to reverse the trend towards increasing disorder (entropy).

The problem is psychological, having nothing to do with the physical laws of entropy.

[Deluge]

16 minutes ago, robosmith said:

There is nothing like a strong existential threat to reverse the trend towards increasing disorder (entropy).

The problem is psychological, having nothing to do with the physical laws of entropy.

Thank you, Spock, but you're full of shit. 

The actual problem is human selfishness and complete disregard for our God given freedoms. The US needs a great reset to an earlier time. 1980 values would just about do it with a permanent hardline on stupid shit like the homosexual agenda. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Deluge

[myata]

12 minutes ago, robosmith said:

nothing to do with the physical laws of entropy

Of course the entropy works in social settings just as well as in the physical ones:

- individual interests

- partisan ones

- social and democracy

- basic survival

For any involved agent e.g. politician serving the closest interests is most natural. That (in the system like partisan) can create chaos on a much greater scale (just as observed), increasing the entropy. No beating the laws of nature.

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

what worked in the past

The time is also one-directional, sorry.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Of course the entropy works in social settings just as well as in the physical ones:

- individual interests

- partisan ones

- social and democracy

- basic survival

For any involved agent e.g. politician serving the closest interests is most natural. That (in the system like partisan) can create chaos on a much greater scale (just as observed), increasing the entropy. No beating the laws of nature.

 Biological systems are much more variable than the LAWS of thermodynamics.

Throw in the extreme variability of mental processes (like you did), and there is NO COMPARISON.

Human mental processes vary from total insanity to completely rational. ?

AKA, complete absence of LAWS.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

Thank you, Spock, but you're full of shit. 

The actual problem is human selfishness and complete disregard for our God given freedoms. The US needs a great reset to an earlier time. 1980 values would just about do it with a permanent hardline on stupid shit like the homosexual agenda. 

Just because you declare freedoms are "god given" does not mean ANYTHING absent a HUMAN power and enforcement of those freedoms.

㊙️ freedoms have EXPANDED here since 1980 esp if you're a minority.

You're the one who wants to curb freedoms for homosexuals. Thanks for admitting YOU'RE ANTI-FREEDOM. 

[West]

Right up until that nonsense the democrats tried with Clarence Thomas, this criminalization of political differences that you see now would not have been tolerated. Since that point you've seen a denegration of politics by the Democrat party

[Hodad]

3 hours ago, myata said:

It may very well be that we're living through the breakdown of the venerable American democracy. Extreme partisan polarization of politics is a real danger, a grave danger to the democracy and it will work to end it, one way (through a near-total deadlock) or the other (African / South American/ Middle East "stolen election" style).

The problem is clear and present: the process is essentially, one-way. It can get worse; everybody in the right mind can clearly see how it can get worse; but there's no plausible ways in which it could repair itself. It is not possible on purely physical ground, as working against the entropy.

One way out can be proposed and it's a slimmest of the slim chance to prevent the breakdown and enable the necessary change via peaceful and constitutional means: a non-partisan citizens assembly. It will examine the problem, discuss and agree on the solutions and propose them to the parties. Either at least one of them agrees to implement then when in power; or the citizens will have to do away with the both. Else, from here it looks like a straight finish line to a permanent deadlock.

And one more time: a partisan political system is an extreme danger to the society. Ignoring this fact, praying on the past will do nothing, at all to negate it. It has full potential, means and it will destroy the democracy. If they don't know it yet it is only because they want to squeeze dry and a few more times, before it goes dead.

I don't think it's really a question anymore that democracy is breaking down.

We have a majority of one party who have already dispensed with democracy--literally. They are fully on record supporting Trump's attempt to remain in power by simply pressuring Pence to unilaterally declare him the winner. 

Not only are they not offended to the core at this coup plot, as any decent American would be, they are trying to put him back in a position of power. I've disliked the GOP's authoritarian trend for a long time, but I NEVER thought in my lifetime I'd see an American president attempt to seize power through extralegal means. And I certainly didn't think it would happen without a stern rebuke from self-proclaimed patriots.

The truth is that they are not patriots. They have neither respect nor love for the America of the founding fathers. They crave only power and dominance and will try to "win" at any cost. Who needs a democracy when you have a strongman to swoon over??

[myata]

55 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Biological systems are much more variable than the LAWS of thermodynamics.

And they naturally increase the entropy in the environment. And that can look exactly like a politician serving individual (and in some sense it includes partisan) interests generating chaos in the wider society. Q.E.D. (at least on the level of appearances ? )

[myata]

13 minutes ago, Hodad said:

The truth is that they are not patriots. They have neither respect nor love for the America of the founding fathers. They crave only power and dominance and will try to "win" at any cost. Who needs a democracy when you have a strongman to swoon over?

And they are the product of the partisan political system. I would say, very much inevitable: in a system that allows only two players, whatever one does, becomes, with time, normality. There is no escape: it's easier to make yourself ignore a flaw on your side than to love your foe. Of course, unprincipled power-hungry jerks will use that, where's the calculus?

Too bad the fathers haven't foreseen that, but it's none of their fault really. In evolution, species that failed to learn and adapt have few chances, and the prize forever and whatever isn't assured to anybody.

But this time something out of ordinary is transpiring because the very foundations of democracy are being questioned and undermined: impartial election process; independence of judiciary and attorneys; abuse of the constitutional process. If and once it's taken away, what's left of the democracy? Back to square one; and if the full view of hopeful dictators, watching.

Edited September 12, 2023 by myata

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, myata said:

It may very well be that we're living through the breakdown of the venerable American democracy. Extreme partisan polarization of politics is a real danger, a grave danger to the democracy and it will work to end it, one way (through a near-total deadlock) or the other (African / South American/ Middle East "stolen election" style).

You can thank Putin for that.

Prior to the 2016 election the Russians spent $200K on FB ads which spread highly inflammatory disinformation about both the Dems and GOP in an attempt to "sow discord", and the Dems went for it hook, line and sinker.

They actually tried to use the intel community's statement about it - which clearly said that the attacks went both ways -  to pretend that all of the disinformation was against the Dems, and that it was done at Trump' behest.  

The 3-yr-long witch hunt that the Dems started, based on those ads, turned relations between the Dems and GOP into a sandbox parody of democracy.

The Dems supported statements which called for the assassination of the president, they called for their own adherents to get in the faces of GOP members and supporters, they endorsed violent rioting, they endorsed protest at the homes of SCJ's, and they endorsed any and all lies and smears against any of the GOP or their voters regardless of how serious the accusations were compared to the level of evidence supplied. 

Any poster here could make a rape accusation against any member of the GOP, and no matter how ridiculous, unsupported and vague the claim is, it will get the full backing of the Dems. Just ask Dr Ford and E Jean Caroll. 

Democracy can't possibly stoop any lower than it currently is in the US. TBH it has already far exceeded the standard of "banana republic". 

Right now, when people still consider the US an actual, functioning democracy, that's mostly based on history and the fact that the US is (arguably) the most powerful country on earth, and they say that they're a democracy. 

If a gov't in Cuba or Peru was carrying on the way the Dems are, the US State Dept would have already filed them squarely in the "banana republic" category.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, myata said:

The time is also one-directional, sorry.

Right, but certain solutions have worked in the past and can work again...

[myata]

32 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Prior to the 2016 election the Russians spent $200K on FB ads which spread highly inflammatory disinformation about both the Dems and GOP in an attempt to "sow discord",

It's very clear that it worked. Your post is a fine example. I'm not a fan of any one party, but very clearly if one slides to the Hell in a two-party system, not only the other, but the entire society follows. It has no choice. Partisan political system is never, ever good for the democracy.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, myata said:

It's very clear that it worked. Your post is a fine example. 

If I was sensationalizing or fibbing that would be true, but the truth needs to be said, doesn't it? 

The Dems rationalized comments about assassinating Trump, a severed head effigy, talk of blowing up the WH, they endorsed violent riots, they endorsed protests right outside of SCJ's homes, they called for their supporters to "get in the faces of the GOP and their supporters and let them know that they're not welcome", and then when a terrorist went to the congressional baseball game to kill as many Republicans as they could, the Dems pretended that their calls to violence didn't cause that. 

I'd like for you to name anything that the GOP did that compares with any of that...

The Dems poo-poohed an attack on the WH and then when a riot occurred at the capitol it was instantly "THE RESULT OF ALL OF THE PRE-INAUGURATION RHETORIC!!!!!"

Can you compare pre-inauguration rhetoric to what I mentioned there? Was it really comparable?

I've never seen the GOP or conservatives say that it was ok to talk about murdering Trudeau or Biden, or to publish photos of their severed heads. I've never seen any of them call for their supporters to harass the opposition. I've never seen any support at all for violent riots from the right. 

It's really dangerous to act like you can't see our democracy sliding down the left side of the hill. The amount of disinformation that the FBI have disseminated in order to influence elections should be a massive story, but it's just a side-bar to the fact that they actually commit crimes for the Dems.

The US is not an actual democracy right now.

[robosmith]

5 hours ago, myata said:

And they naturally increase the entropy in the environment. And that can look exactly like a politician serving individual (and in some sense it includes partisan) interests generating chaos in the wider society. Q.E.D. (at least on the level of appearances ? )

But there IS NO LAW which demands that the chaos always increases. AKA, only "one way."

People can easily change their minds when self-interest demands greater order, and throw the cult leader out.

The 2nd law of thermo cannot be changed.

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

You can thank Putin for that.

Prior to the 2016 election the Russians spent $200K on FB ads which spread highly inflammatory disinformation about both the Dems and GOP in an attempt to "sow discord", and the Dems went for it hook, line and sinker.

They actually tried to use the intel community's statement about it - which clearly said that the attacks went both ways -  to pretend that all of the disinformation was against the Dems, and that it was done at Trump' behest.  

The 3-yr-long witch hunt that the Dems started, based on those ads, turned relations between the Dems and GOP into a sandbox parody of democracy.

The Dems supported statements which called for the assassination of the president, they called for their own adherents to get in the faces of GOP members and supporters, they endorsed violent rioting, they endorsed protest at the homes of SCJ's, and they endorsed any and all lies and smears against any of the GOP or their voters regardless of how serious the accusations were compared to the level of evidence supplied. 

Any poster here could make a rape accusation against any member of the GOP, and no matter how ridiculous, unsupported and vague the claim is, it will get the full backing of the Dems. Just ask Dr Ford and E Jean Caroll. 

Democracy can't possibly stoop any lower than it currently is in the US. TBH it has already far exceeded the standard of "banana republic". 

Right now, when people still consider the US an actual, functioning democracy, that's mostly based on history and the fact that the US is (arguably) the most powerful country on earth, and they say that they're a democracy. 

If a gov't in Cuba or Peru was carrying on the way the Dems are, the US State Dept would have already filed them squarely in the "banana republic" category.

Putin has publicly STATED he wanted Trump to win. And now he is weighing in on Trump's side AGAIN.

You are so biased you MISS HALF of the story as USUAL. ?

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Well ok but... I would put myself in such a committee and people here would brand me a leftist and say I'm too partisan.

2) I agree.

I think the answer is for us to return to what worked in the past: simplified government operations, trusted public intellectuals to debate the issues on our behalf.

Politicians simply can't be trusted to act in the national interest or interests of voters.  They don't have the ethics or integrity.  What trust or legitimacy remains for these people?  They aren't even worth the salary we pay them.

We should have direct democracy on all the key issues and let the lawyers figure out the details.  Cut out the middle man selling us on snake oil.  Let public intellectuals and twitter and MLW and Youtubers etc debate the issues.

1 vote every few years just isn't good enough.  The people need more direct control over their country.

[robosmith]

41 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Politicians simply can't be trusted to act in the national interest or interests of voters.  They don't have the ethics or integrity.  What trust or legitimacy remains for these people?  They aren't even worth the salary we pay them.

We should have direct democracy on all the key issues and let the lawyers figure out the details.  Cut out the middle man selling us on snake oil.  Let public intellectuals and twitter and MLW and Youtubers etc debate the issues.

1 vote every few years just isn't good enough.  The people need more direct control over their country.

I would not trust Musk's Twitter with any thing about government. 

Have you heard about the games he's playing in the Ukraine war with Star Link?

China has him under their thumb cause he does half of his Tesla production there.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Politicians simply can't be trusted to act in the national interest or interests of voters.  They don't have the ethics or integrity.  What trust or legitimacy remains for these people?  They aren't even worth the salary we pay them.

We should have direct democracy on all the key issues and let the lawyers figure out the details.  Cut out the middle man selling us on snake oil.  Let public intellectuals and twitter and MLW and Youtubers etc debate the issues.

1 vote every few years just isn't good enough.  The people need more direct control over their country.

If the public is too lazy and distracted to pay attention to the issues enough, that they let politicians get away with this.. how can we trust them to vote directly on issues responsibly?

 

I maintain that this is all on us.. that this tribalism means that we put up with corrupt leaders like Ford and Trudeau because we feel they're better than the alternative.

If the ruling party is dumped Ford and or trudeau, in favor of someone with vision and integrity, they would probably retain power.

[myata]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1 vote every few years just isn't good enough.  The people need more direct control over their country.

Absolutely. Political class has long figured out that it's not that hard to make the system work for them: status, power, and money why not, rather than for the society. This is of course the natural way of things, the way of entropy and it was said so many times so long ago that laziness and complacency on the part of the citizens will have only one result: the end of democracy.

[myata]

30 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If the ruling party is dumped Ford and or trudeau, in favor of someone with vision and integrity, they would probably retain power.

And again you're looking for miracle solutions, any straw to dump citizen's responsibility somewhere else and on someone else, and again (Einstein not needed) the experience and history will show you that the cost is dictatorship and chaos.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, myata said:

And again you're looking for miracle solutions, any straw to dump citizen's responsibility somewhere else and on someone else, and again (Einstein not needed) the experience and history will show you that the cost is dictatorship and chaos.

That's a fair criticism, however I am not suggesting there's a realistic jump to this scenario in the near term.  Democracy itself took a long series of steps to get established so it will be a slow climb.

I honestly think that forums like this are a foundation for rational discussion, much like the coffee houses of the late reformation or industrial era.  We just need right/left Chuds to drop away and we can start...

[Deluge]

17 hours ago, robosmith said:

Just because you declare freedoms are "god given"

They are God given. Why aren't you on your knees right now thanking God that Islam isn't right here, smacking you around with its Sharia stick? 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Deluge

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

They are God given. Why aren't you on your knees right now thanking God that Islam isn't right here, smacking you around with its Sharia stick? 

Whether your imaginary god gives you freedoms, is irrelevant absent a government which protects those freedoms with force. 

The fact is, you want to deny freedoms to minorities with which you disagree, and you're resorting to advocating the removal of government protections for those freedoms. Neither your preferred government nor your god is going to give them back, so according to you, freedoms depend on YOUR ADVOCACY and OPINIONS. ?

Fortunately you only have ONE VOTE.