ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 14 hours ago, I am Groot said: At your age, you still can't just have a comfortable discussion with people that isn't even political without throwing out insults? For sure I can. It is when the conversation departs reality and floats to imaginary scenarios that have notihng to do with the real situation, well, I get offended. 1 minute ago, Dougie93 said: not at all your self inflicted provocation does not bother me if you are want to obsessively hijack threads to talk about me I'm happy to engage with that while carrying on other conversations at the same time Tsk Tsk Tsk doogie. Stay with the real and reality and maybe you can recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 14 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: you are just there to be ridiculed. I cannot resit a fool. I honestly find it to be amusing you're a throwback, literally a cliche the classic Reg Force REMF who ceaselessly tirades against "Militia Maggots" it's a sign of Reg Force weakness, generally only encountered in the non combat arms but I'm nostalgic for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 10 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Stay with the real and reality and maybe you can recover. all I said was that the BRU-14 hardpoint is a standard US Navy bomb rack which is capable of launching all sorts of ordinance beyond torpedoes, to include anti ship missiles then that set you off for some reason, inciting you to go on a multi page tirade thread jacking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 27 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I honestly find it to be amusing you're a throwback, literally a cliche the classic Reg Force REMF who ceaselessly tirades against "Militia Maggots" it's a sign of Reg Force weakness, generally only encountered in the non combat arms but I'm nostalgic for it Never against Militia. Just you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 22 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: all I said was that the BRU-14 hardpoint is a standard US Navy bomb rack which is capable of launching all sorts of ordinance beyond torpedoes, to include anti ship missiles then that set you off for some reason, inciting you to go on a multi page tirade thread jacking There ya go again...... we are not US Navy!!!! We got what we asked for. ....Period. We are Canadian, not US, not British but Canadian and we got what we asked for for our reasons. Your constant comparing nonsense is what pisses me off. When the Canadian military decides what it wants and needs, it does not whine that we don;'t have what the Americans have....only losers like you do that. You are a basement dweller that knows absolutely zero about Canada Military requirements or policy or procedure. \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Never against Militia. Just you. fill your boots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: but MAD is not really in effect Then, we should be correcting that. War has never solved the problem it was supposed to address (Except World War II). When Presidents Putin, Trump and Xi have to face the fact that war means they and the rest of us will die within a month of opening hostilities, the hope is they will choose life for themselves. The alternative is surrender. The choice is, is it better to die a free person, or live as a slave. My personal view has shifted when I turned 75 and the concept of death went from the abstract to the reality. Life is very precious Most of the issues that have caused major wars ended up being solved at the conference table. Whether Quebec was British or French was decided by the French trading Quebec for Guadeloupe at the conference table, not the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 2 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: There ya go again...... we are not US Navy!!!! but the BRU-14 hardpoint is none the less capable of launching anti ship missiles the AN/APS-143B radar on the CH-148 can track the surface target the integrated US Navy databus allows the anti ship missile to be programmed therein then the CH-148 simply releases the weapon, then it guides itself to the target and executes the attack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 13 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: Then, we should be correcting that. War has never solved the problem it was supposed to address well bear in mind that MAD is not a natural law it's just a theory, invented by Robert Strange McNamara and I would suggest that it was a rather Utopian solution which was doomed to fail from the start furthermore, I would assert that the general public simply does not understand the situation governments have convinced the population that MAD is in effect, so there's nothing to worry about, no need to panic but the average person really doesn't grasp the difference between counterforce & countervalue the average person views it as a binary either you are at DEFCON 5, or you are annihilated at DEFCON 1 in an massive interpolar exchange the thought that there are many orders of thermonuclear war, which are very plausible at the theatre level that you could have a thermonuclear war, and the sun would still come up the next day, in an ongoing conflict doesn't really occur to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: but the BRU-14 hardpoint is none the less capable of launching anti ship missiles the AN/APS-143B radar on the CH-148 can track the surface target the integrated US Navy databus allows the anti ship missile to be programmed therein then the CH-148 simply releases the weapon, then it guides itself to the target and executes the attack OMG..... We got what we asked for...what about that is it you do not understand????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 I'm a former Green Beret 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 Even if these helicopters don't carry missiles it seems rather short sighted not to give them the capability. As for frigates being too small to carry them, the Type 26's are far larger than the Halifax class ships they are replacing. The CP-140 may not carry missiles but the P-8 that is replacing them can carry Harpoon anti ship missiles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: The alternative is surrender. The choice is, is it better to die a free person, or live as a slave. My personal view has shifted when I turned 75 and the concept of death went from the abstract to the reality. Life is very precious well I would actually assert that a theatre thermonuclear war is the preferable option tactical nuclear weapons being comparatively survivable, particularly in terms of minimized fallout in fact a short theatre themonuclear war would be preferable to a prolonged conventional war I don't look to Robert McNamara for the solution rather it was Curtis LeMay who got it right the LeMay theory being that the shorter and more terrible the war, the better as the longer a war lasts, the more people are killed maximum violence is decisive, and decision is the only thing that will end a war Edited February 29 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: well bear in mind that MAD is not a natural law it's just a theory, invented by Robert Strange McNamara and I would suggest that it was a rather Utopian solution which was doomed to fail from the start furthermore, I would assert that the general public simply does not understand the situation governments have convinced the population that MAD is in effect, so there's nothing to worry about, no need to panic but the average person really doesn't grasp the difference between counterforce & countervalue the average person views it as a binary either you are at DEFCON 5, or you are annihilated at DEFCON 1 in an massive interpolar exchange the thought that there are many orders of thermonuclear war, which are very plausible at the theatre level that you could have a thermonuclear war, and the sun would still come up the next day, in an ongoing conflict doesn't really occur to them MAD did work in the Cuban Missile Crisis when Khrushchev looked into the depths of the hell he and JFK were about to unleash and he backed away, had his political teeth kicked in and he smiled. He sacrificed his pride and career so the rest of us could live because he knew that Kennedy was resolute. "We will not prematurely or unnecessarily risk the costs of worldwide nuclear war in which even the fruits of victory would be ashes in our mouth," President John F. Kennedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: MAD did work in the Cuban Missile Crisis MAD was not in effect in 1962 the Soviets did not have the capability to destroy the CONUS then at best they could have hit a few dozen targets only America was in position to destroy the Soviet Union, with 800 B-52's holding at failsafe which is why the Soviets backed down which is the only thing that saved us the Soviets then vowed to never let that happen again so they diverted the bulk of their resources to their navy introducing the Delta class SSBN in the 70's then the Typhoon class SSBN in the 80's only then were the Soviets in a position to destroy the CONUS from the protected bastion under the ice in the Arctic, with MIRV'd SLBM's Edited February 29 by Dougie93 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 The point still stands, Khrushchev was deterred. DISCLAIMER: In matters of military affairs, I defer to Doug and Army Guy for their expertise. I am an amature academic. "Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please." – Niccolò Machiavelli "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy." – Helmuth von Moltke "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." – Robert Lynd In these discussions on combat, I tend to have a cavalier regard to the lives of innocent civilians and conscripts who die in battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: By even contemplating the scenario where a Russian incursion on any NATO member could be answered by anything other than a total nuclear response to destroy Russia completely is an invitation to go to war. The whole purpose of MAD is to prevent war. President Reagan's most useful policy was to convince the Soviets that he was crazy enough to destroy the world if they stepped out of line. That is a policy that must continue. Any war between Russia and NATO will be nuclear. (Same with China) The only way to truly deter them from making a mistake is to continue with the determination to destroy the world rather than surrender. Actually, there is one alternative. Make it clear that any incursion will be answered by an immediate and total surrender. If you think the Americans would try to nuke Russia by them parking themselves in northern waters Canada also claims and building themselves a base you're just... very much mistaken. Nor would they go nuclear if the Russians moved into the Baltics. They'd push them back out one way or another, even if NATO nations had to go to the draft and start building up big militaries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 45 minutes ago, I am Groot said: If you think the Americans would try to nuke Russia by them parking themselves in northern waters Canada also claims only the Russian SSBN's are designed to pop up out of the ice and shoot from the surface American SSBN's have to hover at launch depth and shoot from open waters so the more likely launch points for an American counterforce would be in open waters from the Norwegian Sea just south of the North Cape from the Sea of Japan, just off Sakhalin Island the American SSBN's will be shooting for Central Asia those are the most distant ICBM launch sites which would require Trident II to strike preemptively the Russians on the other hand are very likely to approach by stealth to shoot from Canadian waters the shortest possible distance to the Minuteman III's on the Great Plains in order to execute a preemptive counterforce strike you have to shoot your SLBM's on a depressed trajectory from as close as posssible to shorten their flight times from 30 minutes, down to inside of 10 minutes even with the SBIRS & BMEWS early warning systems a flight time of less than ten minutes would result in almost no time for the National Command Authority to react once the information actually reached the POTUS & SECDEF up the chain of command now there is survivable second strike by the SSBN's in the countervalue deterrent role so the other half of a counterforce, is that you have to send you attack submarines to find them you have to track the enemy SSBN's right from their bases and stay on them at all times so you can sink them with torpedoes when they try to launch a retaliation this is why the Russians hide their SSBN's up under the ice they know the American SSN's are probably right behind them so they are trying to shake those tails in the noise generated by the endlessly cracking ice you won't easily be able to find a Russian SSBN once he is already under the ice so the American SSNs go right into the Barents Sea and off Kamchatka where they wait for the Russian Boomers to come out of their bases at Zapadnaya Litsa on the Kola Peninsula, and Kamchatka Rybachiy on the Pacific then the Americans follow the Russian SSBN's for the entire patrol as that's the only way to stay on top of them to be "up in the saddle" in their baffles if they ever go into a launch mode if the American SSN loses contact with the Russian SSBN that will incite a National Command Authority alert they would probably go to DEFCON 4 just for that it would be all hands on deck to try to find this Russian Boomer which got away this the silent war in progress, both sides jockeying for position, all day every day they never know if/when the Balloon might go up so nuclear submarines tasked to the National Command Authority are on a war footing at all times in this sense, the nuclear war is in progress at all times because these operations are all part of that war since if the missiles are launched at DEFCON 1 that's not the beginning of the war, that's the final phase Edited February 29 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 5 hours ago, ExFlyer said: OK, I get you are emotionally invested with this. There are very few military in Toronto or Vancouver. Victoria yes, but there has been Navy there for almost 100 years Postings for the Air Force were averaging 4 years whereas in the Army, they were with. regiment and much longer. Navy was basically east or west coast and postings tours were much longer. The housing issue is a national one, not just Military. The wages military are paid is actual ahead of the average Canadian wage. " The average salary in Toronto is $62,050, which is 14% higher than the Canadian average salary of $54,450." https://www.careerbeacon.com/en/cost-of-living/toronto_ontario/70000-salary A private soldier ,after 3 years makes $61K . I never said anything was "more affordable" but I did say that is a national problem, be it groceries, gas, energy or housing. Same for Military as for civilians and , to be sure, a private after 3 years makes the average Canadian wage and the military pay goes up regularity from there, ( 4 years later, a Cpl makes $76K). Army personnel also get deployment pay. I am not sure what it is now but it was not bad years ago so I am sure it has even gone up. Considering it costs the soldier nothing while on deployment, their pay stays at home (facetious). Leaning on one quote by a misspoken CO that later apologized is fruitless. Don't be a dougie Yes there was a lot a MWO or Chief could do and I did many of them but, I could not prevent personnel from overspending or getting themselves in debt again and again. I unfortunately had to release 2 persons for disobeying and constantly being a financial and administrative problem. Absolutely last resort but sometimes there is no help for some people. ( I had one guy that was given financial consolidation twice and 2 days after went out and bought a new truck, he was married living in PMQ's but the CO would not help anymore) Bottom line Army Guy is that while we are (were) in the Military, the Military pay is not a problem anymore. The Military personnel actually make as much, and in some cases more, than civilians and are in the same situation regarding housing and day to day living as civilians. Look, when you and I joined, things were pretty tight and we joined because we wanted the "life". When I got married, things were tighter and when we eventually bought a house, we ate hamburger all the time. We never had a vacation for over 10 years. Promotions were not automatic so pay raises were not either. We (you and I) lived through downsizing and pay freezes. I retired as a CWO with salary of $70K and today a CWO makes $125K+. So, when I hear about the Military not getting enough pay, I have to be realistic and make actual comparisons. Perhaps that is your problem you've been so long that your no longer invested in the military... Posting every where are now averaging about 10 years...including the airforce...with some personal being their their entire careers. You can not compare National housing issues to the military ones... The military is mandated to provide it's personal with quarters, add to all this there are other commitments as i listed previously that also are not being followed or heeded. Please explain how a 62 k a year person can afford a 1. something million dollar mortgage... Any one form toronto this is your cue, how does one mange to afford a million dollar plus home... That maybe the case when the airforce gets deployed to a hotel...but in the army it is not the same, for one i had to purchase most of my survival kit, such as tac vest, boots, Camel backs, plate carrier, socks, mufties, not to mention the kit you scounged off other nations becasue it was better most of the time it had a cost to it as well...I dropped close to 2500 US bucks on day one, first tour in Afghanistan... I guess you did not read the our sources i provided...to bad some of them explain the issue in detail...maybe go back and try... Bottom line you can not compare a military persons with a civilian, the number of things the military is failing at is almost as bad as the liberal government failures...Military is in a recruiting crises of it's own making...and in order to become competitive it needs to fix it's shi*...then bring in programs that will entice young people into a career, pay is one of them, housing other benefits as well take a look down south at some of their benefits, such as money for education, etc... Your solution is to ignore it be saying the money is good...yes it was good when we're in...today not so much, the red flags are there military ombudsman speech to parliament, the countless media reports, plus the sources i already gave... these are things that are within the military to fix...with the latest source i posted saying that PMQ rent is going up 6 % just to make things easier...Not enough PMQ's available, no rental units available on civy side, and very little new homes being built...where does a young Cpl stay, in some cases on a friends couch or tent...in the canadian winter i mean come on... That there is a great image for the forces... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 2 hours ago, ExFlyer said: OMG..... We got what we asked for...what about that is it you do not understand????? I think he is pointing out that this project was short sighted , and failed to account for other capabilities...that this helo might be tasked with in the future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, Army Guy said: Perhaps that is your problem you've been so long that your no longer invested in the military... Posting every where are now averaging about 10 years...including the airforce...with some personal being their their entire careers. You can not compare National housing issues to the military ones... The military is mandated to provide it's personal with quarters, add to all this there are other commitments as i listed previously that also are not being followed or heeded. Please explain how a 62 k a year person can afford a 1. something million dollar mortgage... Any one form toronto this is your cue, how does one mange to afford a million dollar plus home... That maybe the case when the airforce gets deployed to a hotel...but in the army it is not the same, for one i had to purchase most of my survival kit, such as tac vest, boots, Camel backs, plate carrier, socks, mufties, not to mention the kit you scounged off other nations becasue it was better most of the time it had a cost to it as well...I dropped close to 2500 US bucks on day one, first tour in Afghanistan... I guess you did not read the our sources i provided...to bad some of them explain the issue in detail...maybe go back and try... Bottom line you can not compare a military persons with a civilian, the number of things the military is failing at is almost as bad as the liberal government failures...Military is in a recruiting crises of it's own making...and in order to become competitive it needs to fix it's shi*...then bring in programs that will entice young people into a career, pay is one of them, housing other benefits as well take a look down south at some of their benefits, such as money for education, etc... Your solution is to ignore it be saying the money is good...yes it was good when we're in...today not so much, the red flags are there military ombudsman speech to parliament, the countless media reports, plus the sources i already gave... these are things that are within the military to fix...with the latest source i posted saying that PMQ rent is going up 6 % just to make things easier...Not enough PMQ's available, no rental units available on civy side, and very little new homes being built...where does a young Cpl stay, in some cases on a friends couch or tent...in the canadian winter i mean come on... That there is a great image for the forces... 10 year postings have been around since the 90's. The military is not mandated to provide housing for it's personnel. What I said and stand by is that a private, with 3 years in makes $62K a year and that is more than the average Canadian salary. Can they afford a home? Probably not but neither can civilians and there is my comparison. Is the recruiting crisis the military's fault or a societal issue? Way back when, the Army always had a recruitment problem. Enticing young people to become a grunt and go fight in the mud and muck is difficult. The young people these days are not built that way. But, that is a totally different topic All I said was that when the Army is deployed, they get deployment and danger pay, on top of their salary. How they spend it, is up to them but they do not have to use their salary to obtain extras. For sure there are differences between Military and civilian but the discussion was salary and your claim we are all entitled to or have the right to own a home, and that is incorrect. The salary today is much better than wh we were in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I think he is pointing out that this project was short sighted , and failed to account for other capabilities...that this helo might be tasked with in the future... I think so many on the outside are not in line with what a requirement specification is. I can assure you that it is not a rectal pluck. It is a long drawn put process. The teams, and it is a large one, including all the specialists and planners and whomever has stake in it go to great lengths to get as much as possible. The request for proposals (RFP) then go out and bidders try to convince us to buy their product. We do not always get exactly what we want but, the planners and high level folks know what we want and take what is needed for our policies and tactical needs. Some of what is in the RFP is secret and cannot be divulged as that can give away our secret plans or military tactics to what is in essence public. Our senior planners also have input into the evaluation of the bidders to ensure our capabilities will be as they planned for. So, this discussion of missiles and other extraneous equipment was not what the Military wanted and so, did not get it. Regretting not getting missiles on a ASW helicopter is only useless talk on this forum by a few unknowing people. Canada will not and never has procured for the "future". So we get what we want. EDIT: I forgot, the other thing we always want in anything we buy is that it is multi functional I speak through my experience at NDHQ as a military man, as a member of SAR helicopter procurement beginning to delivery. Then as a public servant in a MHP procurement as a contract manager. Edited February 29 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: I think he is pointing out that this project was short sighted , and failed to account for other capabilities...that this helo might be tasked with in the future... the terms of DND procurement are deliberately limited because the bureaucrats are seeking to constrain the budget so those monies can be plundered for other imperatives, mostly vote buying by government handouts but it's still an American helicopter, which the Americans built with the full spectrum of capabilities therein if the RCN needs to launch anti ship missiles from CH-148, that can be done the hardpoint & avionics are compatible, the radar is actually state of the art for SuW the problem with the CH-148 is really just economies of scale as it is an orphaned fleet, which due to the development challenges, never sold since the tragic loss of Stalker Two Two, there are only 27 of them in the world so it's going to be a logistics burden, since the customized parts are not widely available Edited February 29 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: the terms of DND procurement are deliberately limited because the bureaucrats are seeking to constrain the budget so those monies can be plundered for other imperatives, mostly vote buying by government handouts but it's still an American helicopter, which the Americans built with the full spectrum of capabilities therein if the RCN needs to launch anti ship missiles from CH-148, that can be done the hardpoint & avionics are compatible, the radar is actually state of the art for SuW the problem with the CH-148 is really just economies of scale as it is an orphaned fleet, which due to the development challenges, never sold since the tragic loss of Stalker Two Two, there are only 27 of them in the world so it's going to be a logistics burden, since the customized parts are not widely available You do not understand. It is an American fuselage... a bare shell. What is inside of it is all Canadian requirements, even the seats. There is no "American Helicopter" in there. The H92 shell is used for many things. Like a Porsche 911, one basic body style with about 25 variants. If you want to add missiles to the Cyclone, you have to remove something. You cannot keep adding, the helicopter will never leave the deck or the range will be restricted to 50 miles away from ship. You are wrong, hard points are for Canadian requirements, not interchangeable. We will never have more than 12 helicopters on board ships and it is very unlikely we will ever have 12 at one time. Best we can do, from personnel and ship side is 6. So, 36 Cyclones (minus the crashed one) will be more than enough. Play the American game if you want but, the Americans have many different types and variants of type to do their specific tasks. No one helicopter can do it all. No all singing all dancing machine. Edited February 29 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 8 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: If you want to add missiles to the Cyclone, you have to remove something. You cannot keep adding, the helicopter will never leave the deck or the range will be restricted to 50 miles away from ship. the BRU-14 bomb rack is the same bomb rack used by SH-60, which can launch NSM the NSM only weighs 300 lbs more than a Mk.46 so why the aircraft can't lift the extra weight is not clear surely the aircraft has more margin than 300 lbs above ASW take off weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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