Socialism

[Rebound]

Any time the government helps the people, conservatives attack it and call it socialism. 

They called Social Security Socialism. 
They called Medicare Socialism. 
They called public electrification Socialism. 
The Boulder Dam was Socialism (then they re-named it after Republican Herbert Hoover).

They called bank deposit insurance, and farm price supports, and public power socialism.  
ObamaCare? Socialist. 

These programs work. They have lifted America’s poor out of poverty and caused America to be a world leader.  When we invest tax dollars in our people, we all thrive.  

[Michael Hardner]

Isn't the American military program just a giant make work plan? How many military jobs in Mitch McConnell's district?

[Rebound]

41 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Isn't the American military program just a giant make work plan? How many military jobs in Mitch McConnell's district?

Economically, the American military is communist, not socialist. It’s owned by the state and the state controls it fully. 
 

To be more clear, while I know that we need military spending, America’s is utterly insane, comprising over 50% of all Federal discretionary spending. And while that money employs people, it provides no additional economic benefit, as, say, a dam or a road or school spending does. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Rebound

[robosmith]

7 hours ago, Rebound said:

Economically, the American military is communist, not socialist. It’s owned by the state and the state controls it fully. 
 

To be more clear, while I know that we need military spending, America’s is utterly insane, comprising over 50% of all Federal discretionary spending. And while that money employs people, it provides no additional economic benefit, as, say, a dam or a road or school spending does. 

Tech development funded for military purposes has a huge impact on private business. Both the Internet and the national Interstate roads were sold on military necessity. And those are just 2 of the biggest.

[reason10]

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

Any time the government helps the people, conservatives attack it and call it socialism. 

They called Social Security Socialism. 
They called Medicare Socialism. 
They called public electrification Socialism. 
The Boulder Dam was Socialism (then they re-named it after Republican Herbert Hoover).

They called bank deposit insurance, and farm price supports, and public power socialism.  
ObamaCare? Socialist. 

These programs work. They have lifted America’s poor out of poverty and caused America to be a world leader.  When we invest tax dollars in our people, we all thrive.  

Sosha Curity works? By 2030, the ENTIRE budget will be INTEREST PAYMENTS ON SOSHA CURITY and nothing else. And that will be with 90 percent income taxes on EVERYBODY. (according to the Kerrey Danforth Report.) Find someone with an education to dumbsplain it to you.

Medicare works? It is THE SINGLE REASON why health care is so high.

Building a DAM is socialist? In what alternate universe? Are you just high on meth today?

You think those COMMUNIST programs lifted America out of poverty?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/the-10-poorest-countries-in-the-world#:~:text=Today%2C more than 46 million people live in,than at any point in the country’s history.

According to 2011 data released on Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau, 15% of individuals in the United States live below the poverty line. While down from 15.1% last year, it remains statistically unchanged and near a record high. Today, more than 46 million people live in poverty in America, more than at any point in the country’s history.

Socialism? Like this?

Gee! That's starting to look like Unelected Joe's record.

[reason10]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Isn't the American military program just a giant make work plan? How many military jobs in Mitch McConnell's district?

The American Military sheds its blood on the other side of the world so left wingers like you can spew your lies and not be arrested for it. The American military PROTECTS YOUR RIGHTS.

If you don't think so, move to North Korea or Cuba and see how long you last with those extremist hate posts.

10 hours ago, robosmith said:

Tech development funded for military purposes has a huge impact on private business. Both the Internet and the national Interstate roads were sold on military necessity. And those are just 2 of the biggest.

Feel free to move to North Korea or Venezuela, since you hate America so much. There's only a few MILLION superior intellects waiting in line to take your place, and they actually bring intelligence and job skills with them. You won't be missed.

[robosmith]

30 minutes ago, reason10 said:

Feel free to move to North Korea or Venezuela, since you hate America so much. There's only a few MILLION superior intellects waiting in line to take your place, and they actually bring intelligence and job skills with them. You won't be missed.

You are an ldiot who failed to understand the post YOU QUOTED. I guess it's just REFLEX (obviously NO THOUGHT) with you. LMAO

[reason10]

4 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You are an ldiot who failed to understand the post YOU QUOTED. I guess it's just REFLEX (obviously NO THOUGHT) with you. LMAO

I understand the FCKING LIES you (and other retards) continue to spew every day here. I just put you in your place, with facts and logic, (something you lost when you dropped out of school in the third grade.)

You apparently think ALL GOVERNMENT SPENDING IS SOCIALISM. Your fellow retard here even tried to peg military spending as socialist.

And you wonder why everybody calls you liberals m0r0ns.

[CdnFox]

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

Any time the government helps the people, conservatives attack it and call it socialism. 

A socialist might think that - they lie a lot.

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

They called Social Security Socialism. 
They called Medicare Socialism. 

Medicare is a redistribution of wealth and social security has 'social' right in the title

They are socialistic programs - but that doesn't mean that concervatives are against it or consider it to be Social-ISM.

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

They called public electrification Socialism. 

I don't think that happens

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

The Boulder Dam was Socialism (then they re-named it after Republican Herbert Hoover).

Sill don't think that happens   

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

They called bank deposit insurance, and farm price supports, and public power socialism.  
ObamaCare? Socialist. 

I dont think they said that about bank insurance.  Farm price supports literally is socialism so - calling socialism socialism is kind of fair ball   and nobody calls public power 'socialism'.

Public health care is socialistic, that's why it's called socialized health care in most parts of the world.

18 hours ago, Rebound said:

These programs work. They have lifted America’s poor out of poverty and caused America to be a world leader.  When we invest tax dollars in our people, we all thrive.  

Some work, some don't. Obama care didn't.

And there aren't many conservatives who claim that NO social programs should happen. MOST if not all support some social spending of money.  Just like most socialists these days don't want to actually see an end to capitalism entirely, they want 'democatic socialism'.

So you've made two false claims.  The first being that Conservatives think any gov't spending is socialism and the second being that conservatives think all social spending is evil or doesn't work. Swing and a miss with both.

[Rebound]

15 hours ago, robosmith said:

Tech development funded for military purposes has a huge impact on private business. Both the Internet and the national Interstate roads were sold on military necessity. And those are just 2 of the biggest.

They were “sold” on military necessity because that’s the only way to get the Cro-Magnon conservatives to invest in our economy. 

[impartialobserver]

any society where there are public goods such police, fire dept, public parks, public fireworks displays, national parks, etc.. could be construed as socialist. 

[Americana Antifa]

When the government helps the rich, it's "stimulating the economy." When the government helps the workers, it's "socialism."

[CdnFox]

59 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

When the government helps the rich, it's "stimulating the economy." When the government helps the workers, it's "socialism."

when socialists lie it's fact.  When conservatives tell the truth it's a lie.

Yeah. We know how it works with you socialists.

 

[BeaverFever]

The problem is that most people on the left and the right don’t know what “socialism” or “capitalism” even mean, even people like AOC and Bernie Sanders misuse the word.  
 

Capitalism never required ZERO government regulation of business and the economy, and it never required ZERO social programs or public benefits. In fact capitalism requires a healthy amount of both in order to function properly - capitalism is not a call for post-apocalyptic anarchy and survivalism 

Bernie Sanders, AOC and all of the liberals and conservatives on both sides of the border are all capitalists. They just disagree on what amount of public programs and government regulation is “healthy”. 
 

NOBODY is advocating for ACTUAL socialism, which is an economic system in which nearly all property and enterprise is state-owned   That’s just a conservative fake boogeyman and generic insult

Edited June 6, 2023 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:48 AM, CdnFox said:

Some work, some don't. Obama care didn't.

Obamacare works better than anything else America has tried. That’s why it’s still in place over a decade later and republicans are afraid to touch it with a ten foot pole and have not been able to even publicly float a possible alternative. Like not even a back-of-napkin sketch of an alternative idea despite ten + years of saying “repeal and replace” 

Edited June 6, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Obamacare works better than anything else America has tried. That’s why it’s still in place over a decade later and republicans are afraid to touch it with a ten foot pole and have not been able to even publicly float a possible alternative. Like not even a back-of-napkin sketch of an alternative idea despite ten + years of saying “repeal and replace” 

Hilarious how these boneheads keep parroting "ObamaCare should be replaced" but they have no idea what to replace it with. Utterly clueless!

[reason10]

44 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Hilarious how these boneheads keep parroting "ObamaCare should be replaced" but they have no idea what to replace it with. Utterly clueless!

Obamacare has made doctors even RICHER, forced a RECORD NUMBER of insured folk OFF THEIR POLICIES with skyrocketing premiums, and generally made things worse.

You replace Obamacare by OVERTURNING IT. Simple as that.

(And we all know that SIMPLE is all your pea brain can handle)

16 hours ago, Americana Antifa said:

When the government helps the rich, it's "stimulating the economy." When the government helps the workers, it's "socialism."

 In other words, NONE of you goose stepping retards know the meaning of Socialism.

It is NOT all government spending.

It is NOT dumbass welfare programs.

It is NOT public funding of highways, military, etc.

 

Socialism is the ABOLITION of private property and complete government control of the means of production.

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Hilarious how these boneheads keep parroting "ObamaCare should be replaced" but they have no idea what to replace it with. Utterly clueless!

Ilr?  It’s an extremely popular program that uas reduced the number of uninsured to historic lows.   Only republican politician shills and their industry lobbyists want to return to the previous status quo. There are no Americans saying “please take away my coverage!  Please exclude me due to pre-existing conditions!”  Please make my premiums unaffordable!

[reason10]

37 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Ilr?  It’s an extremely popular program that uas reduced the number of uninsured to historic lows.   Only republican politician shills and their industry lobbyists want to return to the previous status quo. There are no Americans saying “please take away my coverage!  Please exclude me due to pre-existing conditions!”  Please make my premiums unaffordable!

Excuse me, but Obamacare INCREASED THE NUMBER OF UNINSURED PEOPLE. RECORD numbers of Americans LOST their policies. And another RECORD NUMBER LOST their coverage from not being able to afford the skyrocketing premiums from that Nazi program.

https://ballotpedia.org/Health_insurance_policy_cancellations_since_Obamacare

Ten essential benefits for coverage

The law included ten essential benefits that plans created after the law's passage needed to include. Existing plans were grandfathered in, but few of the grandfathered plans remain due to frequent changes to health insurance policies.^[8]

 

 

The ten essential benefits outlined by the ACA are:^[9]

• Ambulatory patient services
• Emergency services
• Hospitalization
• Maternity and newborn care
• Mental health and substance abuse disorder services, including behavioral health treatment
• Prescription drugs
• Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices
• Laboratory services
• Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management
• Pediatric services, including oral and vision care

State exchange regulations

• California: Covered California, the state healthcare exchange, required cancellations of 900,000 individual insurance plans on December 31, 2013. The requirement was established so healthy patients, who may have stayed with their current plans for the next year, would join the state exchange, minimizing their impact on future rates. Just over a third of the cancellations, 310,000, were to qualify for subsidies under the new exchange. The other 590,000 were expected to see their rates rise under the new policies.^[10]

Number of people impacted

• NBC News reported that between 50 percent and 75 percent of the 14 million who buy individual health insurance would likely receive a cancellation notice over 2014 because their plans did not meet the requirements of the ACA.^[3]
• CBS News reported that more than two million Americans were told they could not renew their insurance policies for 2014.^[11]
• According to NBC News, the Obama administration knew in July 2010 that more than 40 percent to 67 percent of people in the individual market would likely not be able to keep their existing policies.^[3]
• Health policy consultant Robert Laszewski estimated 80 percent of individual insurance buyers would have to find new policies.^[3]

Employee health insurance policies

Analysis done by the American Enterprise Institute predicted between 50 percent and 66 percent of small businesses would have policies canceled or could drop employee insurance altogether when the benefits mandate included employer-sponsored plans in late 2014. The study suggested as many as 100 million small and large business plans could be canceled due to the changes.^[12]

https://dailycaller.com/2013/11/08/seniors-lose-insurance-and-doctors-under-obamacare/

Seniors lose insurance and doctors under Obamacare

Edited June 6, 2023 by reason10

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Obamacare works better than anything else America has tried. That’s why it’s still in place over a decade later and republicans are afraid to touch it with a ten foot pole and have not been able to even publicly float a possible alternative. Like not even a back-of-napkin sketch of an alternative idea despite ten + years of saying “repeal and replace” 

What the hell are you talking about? Afraid to touch it -  Trump took it to the supreme court and tried to have it declared unconstitutional. And he was only in 4 years. And their 'plan' was to go back to the way it was. You need to read more before making statements like that.

As to it working or not - meh. Honestly it doesn't seem to be substantially better than before - states have cut back on medicaid and such because it's available and that disadvantages those who can't afford it. So some are a little better off and some are worse off. Some people really don't like it - they lose their doctor or don't have access to the health network they want - others don't mind.

So yeah - it wound up taking away a lot of health care from the most needy.

It really didn't work. When you look at what it was intended to do vs what it did.. naw.

 

 

[impartialobserver]

Being someone that occasionally really hates myself.. I have Das Kapital from cover to cover. Marx's narrative of socialism differs so greatly from what we discuss here as to not be the same word. I say narrative because he never actually gives a definition. Das Kapital is not so much textbook as it is narrative/story. 

[Rebound]

53 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Being someone that occasionally really hates myself.. I have Das Kapital from cover to cover. Marx's narrative of socialism differs so greatly from what we discuss here as to not be the same word. I say narrative because he never actually gives a definition. Das Kapital is not so much textbook as it is narrative/story. 

I would describe Das Kapital as a very accurate and detailed criticism of the capitalist system. Since it’s writing, however, all of the remedies Marx proposed have been implemented in the West, and we take them for granted today. The exception, of course, is the transition to a communist utopia, which Marx only mentioned in the last page or two of the book. 
 

There are certain books with all educated people should read. It’s not about agreeing with them, it’s because they were major works which influenced all of human history, and must be reckoned with.  Das Kapitol is one such book.  

[impartialobserver]

19 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I would describe Das Kapital as a very accurate and detailed criticism of the capitalist system. Since it’s writing, however, all of the remedies Marx proposed have been implemented in the West, and we take them for granted today. The exception, of course, is the transition to a communist utopia, which Marx only mentioned in the last page or two of the book. 
 

There are certain books with all educated people should read. It’s not about agreeing with them, it’s because they were major works which influenced all of human history, and must be reckoned with.  Das Kapitol is one such book.  

All I know is that it is not an easy read so I can understand why relatively few have read it. 

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

All I know is that it is not an easy read so I can understand why relatively few have read it. 

Really? It’s a long book, but the criticisms are easily understood, particularly if you understand that it was written at a time when workers had absolutely no rights or protections. For example, if a factory worker lost his arm because factory machinery malfunctioned, the factory owner would just say, “Sorry, but you can’t work here anymore because I can’t employ a one-armed worker.”  That was that. The poverty of factory workers was extreme. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Rebound

[BeaverFever]

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

What the hell are you talking about? Afraid to touch it -  Trump took it to the supreme court and tried to have it declared unconstitutional. And he was only in 4 years. And their 'plan' was to go back to the way it was. You need to read more before making statements like that.

As to it working or not - meh. Honestly it doesn't seem to be substantially better than before - states have cut back on medicaid and such because it's available and that disadvantages those who can't afford it. So some are a little better off and some are worse off. Some people really don't like it - they lose their doctor or don't have access to the health network they want - others don't mind.

So yeah - it wound up taking away a lot of health care from the most needy.

It really didn't work. When you look at what it was intended to do vs what it did.. naw.

 

 

Not quite accurate.
 

First the Republican mantra was “repeal and REPLACE” not just repeal. And you’ll recall that during his 2016 campaign Trump ridiculously promised to invent some new magic healthcare plan that would cover everything for everyone and would not cost anyone anything. 
 

In the end Trump only chipped away at it, but it is more or less intact. He couldn’t get widespread support for reform from Congress not even from his own republicans so he resorted to various court challenges and non-legislative changes like defunding or not enforcing certain parts of the program. But through these methods, during his term in office Trump still did manage to strip coverage from a couple of million Americans if that is something that makes you proud. Analysts have attributed up to 25,000 preventable deaths to this loss of coverage. Give yourself a pat on the back.

 

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/quantifying-health-coverage-losses-under-trump/#:~:text=Between the years 2016 and,25%2C180%2C a new analysis found.

Edited June 7, 2023 by BeaverFever