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Eroding democracies: Turkey, Hungary, Georgia... Canada?


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That's right. No formal process, however meticulous assures a democracy against the wear of time, the entropy, erosion and decay. In the countries above, common instruments of a functional modern democracy: independent and competent judiciary; free media; rich and vibrant political environment have been eroding, brought under informal or semi-formal control resulting in increasingly authoritarian political climate.

Turkey is a candidate country for European Union and a member state of NATO. Hungary, a current member of both. Georgia (country), not so long ago a torch of democracy in the post USSR area. All parliamentary democracies with independent (supposedly) judiciaries and etc. No, formal entourage and process guarantees and assures nothing. A factual proof.

And in Canada? Once you get past the glamorous facade, the impression is that someone worked hard, diligently and deliberately for some time too to ensure that no functional checks or mechanisms over governments in power exist or could appear.. ever. No, you just cannot come to that result just by random dumbness, the laws of statistics do not allow that.

RCMP investigated and brought charges against a sitting minister? That's a nice joke, there!

Supreme Court in an emergency session stopped an ongoing attempt of abuse of power by the government? Where, in Georgia (state), right?

Free"" media... right.

"The government faces accountability at the time of an election". Really! We hear and repeat the mantra (nice job there, btw!) almost daily. That would be what? A few weeks of accountability in how many years? Sounds right? Makes sense to you, citizen? But we repeat it no problem, till it settles and cements itself in our brains.

This can be serious. More importantly, the happy ride will not go on forever. One day someone somewhere will look and realize that it's just that: nothing. Vacuum. Stopping them and to stop them. And so why not make a decent use of it? For the common goodness, how else?

 

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6 hours ago, myata said:

That's right.......

.....

"The government faces accountability at the time of an election". Really! We hear and repeat the mantra (nice job there, btw!) almost daily. That would be what? A few weeks of accountability in how many years? Sounds right? Makes sense to you, citizen? But we repeat it no problem, till it settles and cements itself in our brains.

.....

 

That is a fact. If the public decides it want certain people, they vote for them

Just because it does not fit your idea of democracy, that, in fact is democracy and what happens.

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33 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Just because it does not fit your idea of democracy, that, in fact is democracy and what happens.

Are you being challenged getting the fallacy of generalization? Democracies have elections? yes. Does it mean that anything that has visibility of an election, a true democracy? Obvious. Putin had elections".

n a functional democracy governments are accountable to the citizens at all times, via a number of effective independent institutes and mechanisms. Now, when it's clear do look around.

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44 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

If the public decides it want certain people, they vote for them

Just because it does not fit your idea of democracy, that, in fact is democracy and what happens.

Exactly. The people always know what they need and what is right for them, their place and time. That is how Hitler got elected.

Demockracy

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7 hours ago, myata said:

That's right. No formal process, however meticulous assures a democracy against the wear of time, the entropy, erosion and decay. In the countries above, common instruments of a functional modern democracy: independent and competent judiciary; free media; rich and vibrant political environment have been eroding, brought under informal or semi-formal control resulting in increasingly authoritarian political climate.

Turkey is a candidate country for European Union and a member state of NATO. Hungary, a current member of both. Georgia (country), not so long ago a torch of democracy in the post USSR area. All parliamentary democracies with independent (supposedly) judiciaries and etc. No, formal entourage and process guarantees and assures nothing. A factual proof.

And in Canada? Once you get past the glamorous facade, the impression is that someone worked hard, diligently and deliberately for some time too to ensure that no functional checks or mechanisms over governments in power exist or could appear.. ever. No, you just cannot come to that result just by random dumbness, the laws of statistics do not allow that.

RCMP investigated and brought charges against a sitting minister? That's a nice joke, there!

Supreme Court in an emergency session stopped an ongoing attempt of abuse of power by the government? Where, in Georgia (state), right?

Free"" media... right.

"The government faces accountability at the time of an election". Really! We hear and repeat the mantra (nice job there, btw!) almost daily. That would be what? A few weeks of accountability in how many years? Sounds right? Makes sense to you, citizen? But we repeat it no problem, till it settles and cements itself in our brains.

This can be serious. More importantly, the happy ride will not go on forever. One day someone somewhere will look and realize that it's just that: nothing. Vacuum. Stopping them and to stop them. And so why not make a decent use of it? For the common goodness, how else?

 

"All it takes for evil men to win, is for good men to do nothing."

- Second Law of Political Dynamics

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This can be an epitome, eternal symbol of Canada: government, to the citizen, open text, "you have from here to here (about three weeks) for a dance of "accountability" and thereafter, get lost asap will ya".

Citizen: yeah great. Yes, we have a democracy.

It could be funny as a theater pantomime.

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50 minutes ago, myata said:

Are you being challenged getting the fallacy of generalization? Democracies have elections? yes. Does it mean that anything that has visibility of an election, a true democracy? Obvious. Putin had elections".

n a functional democracy governments are accountable to the citizens at all times, via a number of effective independent institutes and mechanisms. Now, when it's clear do look around.

Are you insinuating that our elections are comparable to putins'? If so, prove taht LOL

Accountability is what it is. It is not there to please you or your definition. Your like or dislike of what you get to see is unimportant to all governments and to most people.

42 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Exactly. The people always know what they need and what is right for them, their place and time. That is how Hitler got elected.

Demockracy

Yup, democracy, voted in by the people. Like it or not, that is democracy.

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3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

EVERYTHING is BAD.

Did you fail your reading test? Independent law enforcement: none (never happens on the level of senior bureaucrats); independent judiciary: meh (timely and functional never happen at the same time); free independent media, see pandemic reporting.

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

We have to do SOMETHING

No no too late for that I'm afraid. Change is not possible. Just relax and enjoy the one-way ride.

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19 minutes ago, myata said:

Did you fail your reading test? Independent law enforcement: none (never happens on the level of senior bureaucrats); independent judiciary: meh (timely and functional never happen at the same time); free independent media, see pandemic reporting.

My reading test?  What does that have to do with mocking the latest of dozens of near-identical threads you've posted over the last year whining generally about the state of the country.  Everything is bad.  Everything is wrong.  

Solutions?  Suggestions? 

"Don't worry about it.  Just read my word-vomit of complaints."

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3 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Solutions? 

Ah you must be of the rosy-naive kind. Those who believe that a solution is guaranteed and assured (by who? what's the insurance company?) for any conundrum they get themselves into. Good luck, there!

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Canada is, in reality, five or six countries pretending to be one. It gets silly, especially in the area of extorted and manipulated money.

Where is Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia today? There are a dozen other examples living as neighbours.

Canada is a flawed mess based on extortion and transfer of funds for the “chosen” ones. End this charade now.

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43 minutes ago, myata said:

Ah you must be of the rosy-naive kind. Those who believe that a solution is guaranteed and assured (by who? what's the insurance company?) for any conundrum they get themselves into. Good luck, there!

I am sure he asked you for solutions.

Lots of complaints come from you but nothing of value is returned from you.

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1 hour ago, myata said:

Ah you must be of the rosy-naive kind. Those who believe that a solution is guaranteed and assured (by who? what's the insurance company?) for any conundrum they get themselves into. Good luck, there!

I suppose I'm the kind that prefers to think of how to improve things, rather than b*tching uselessly and generally to everyone and nobody in particular.  ?‍♂️

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Every democracy is always in decline.  It is their nature. That is why it's critical for the public to try to remain engaged and educated. But that doesn't always happen.

As the saying goes the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. The public can get lulled into complacency from time to time and when that happens people either wake up and hold the gov't to task or the fail to and lose their freedoms.

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(persistent in the oblivion of the reality)

13 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

no one (persistent in the oblivion of the reality) wants on their team

(fixed it for you) You're welcome and any time! Believe it or not, not a tiniest grain of interest in joining the happy bandwagon team. Change is not possible! It would be such a can worms! But let's talk (a lot, like forever) about what someone else could have done in another Universe. Sounds right, the team?

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9 hours ago, Contrarian said:

This is

You are already lost. "Voting" is not a magical horn of eternal plenty. It is not a universal panacea. Putin has "voting". Kim can have it if only he fancied being called a "democracy" (in your interpretation of course, trademark). If you scare and mislead folk enough they may "vote" for pretty much any crazy idea and that's a fact confirmed by multiple painful experience.

In a functional modern democracy, voting is only a tool, one aspect of democracy that cannot and will not work without all others. Good luck figuring this difficult matter out.. before the happy train hits its unavoidable destination.

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7 hours ago, myata said:

(persistent in the oblivion of the reality)

(fixed it for you) You're welcome and any time! Believe it or not, not a tiniest grain of interest in joining the happy bandwagon team. Change is not possible! It would be such a can worms! But let's talk (a lot, like forever) about what someone else could have done in another Universe. Sounds right, the team?

That was not a fix...it was an ego stroke...for you from you LOL

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22 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Are you insinuating that our elections are comparable to putins'? If so, prove taht LOL

Accountability is what it is. It is not there to please you or your definition. Your like or dislike of what you get to see is unimportant to all governments and to most people.

Yup, democracy, voted in by the people. Like it or not, that is democracy.

While this is partially true...its only partially true.

A real "democracy" provides the electorate opportunities to vote in their preferred candidate based of the information they are given by the media. However...if said media does not present the entire spectrum of a candidate's positions, the electorate is destined to cast votes without knowing all the facts.

This sort of BS has been happening with more and more regularity. The media chooses sides and promotes that side while demeaning the other side. That's called propaganda. The kind found in places like Russia...NAZI Germany...Communist China...and today its happening the USA and Canada.

That's not real democracy...its fascism.

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1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

While this is partially true...its only partially true.

A real "democracy" provides the electorate opportunities to vote in their preferred candidate based of the information they are given by the media. However...if said media does not present the entire spectrum of a candidate's positions, the electorate is destined to cast votes without knowing all the facts.

This sort of BS has been happening with more and more regularity. The media chooses sides and promotes that side while demeaning the other side. That's called propaganda. The kind found in places like Russia...NAZI Germany...Communist China...and today its happening the USA and Canada.

That's not real democracy...its fascism.

While what you say has some merit, the thing is "media" is innumerable sources.

As can be seen on this forum alone, there are sufficient sources of media to be able to prove your point with links to "media".

The issue with "media" is which one you choose to follow or believe. There are obvious left and right media but there are many non partisan media that really do not care who is in power. The choice of "media" is yours.

We are a democracy and the "media" behaviours is proof of that.  Nothing like Russia, communist china or other dictatorships (I will not address NAZI Germany as that is the last resort of folks with nothing of value to add). Even in the USA there are lots of non partisan "media"

So, blaming "media" is cop out.

And claiming fascism is absurd. Canada and Canadian politics are as far from fascism as you can get.   https://world101.cfr.org/historical-context/world-war/what-fascism

 

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19 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

While what you say has some merit, the thing is "media" is innumerable sources.

As can be seen on this forum alone, there are sufficient sources of media to be able to prove your point with links to "media".

The issue with "media" is which one you choose to follow or believe. There are obvious left and right media but there are many non partisan media that really do not care who is in power. The choice of "media" is yours.

We are a democracy and the "media" behaviours is proof of that.  Nothing like Russia, communist china or other dictatorships (I will not address NAZI Germany as that is the last resort of folks with nothing of value to add). Even in the USA there are lots of non partisan "media"

So, blaming "media" is cop out.

And claiming fascism is absurd. Canada and Canadian politics are as far from fascism as you can get.   https://world101.cfr.org/historical-context/world-war/what-fascism

 

The CBC and Toronto Star are the most used news sources in Canada. Neither of them present a "fair and balanced" view of all political parties. That's called "propaganda".

Hitler used propaganda...Zelinsky uses it...Putin uses it...the CCP use it...and Pixie-Dust uses it. This propaganda warps reality in the minds of the electorate. Thus the votes are cast by an uninformed electorate.

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11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

The CBC and Toronto Star are the most used news sources in Canada. Neither of them present a "fair and balanced" view of all political parties. That's called "propaganda".

Hitler used propaganda...Zelinsky uses it...Putin uses it...the CCP use it...and Pixie-Dust uses it. This propaganda warps reality in the minds of the electorate. Thus the votes are cast by an uninformed electorate.

CBC and Toronto Star.....and the National Post, Globe and Mail and the bevy of Bell media newspapers and TV news are among the tons of media. The most news sources used from posters on these forums is YouTube and Twitter LOL

"fair and balanced" is really your personal belief and path.

Propaganda is used by everyone, be it advertisers of a product to politicians of every stripe. What you believe, or want to believe is an individual thing. Some believe the miracle of vitamins or laxatives, others believe Pierre Pollievere or Justin Trudeau or even Elizabeth May.

They cast their votes by purchasing the product, be it to have a dump, or to be dumped on :)

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7 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

CBC and Toronto Star.....and the National Post, Globe and Mail and the bevy of Bell media newspapers and TV news are among the tons of media. The most news sources used from posters on these forums is YouTube and Twitter LOL

"fair and balanced" is really your personal belief and path.

Propaganda is used by everyone, be it advertisers of a product to politicians of every stripe. What you believe, or want to believe is an individual thing. Some believe the miracle of vitamins or laxatives, others believe Pierre Pollievere or Justin Trudeau or even Elizabeth May.

They cast their votes by purchasing the product, be it to have a dump, or to be dumped on :)

The news media is "supposed" to be impartial. It has been warped and corrupted.

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