Canada wrongly supports a "two-state" solution for Israel

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

If they support, work for, or take part in terrorist activities then yes they are terrorists...

Were the Jews who fought the British government in Palestine terrorists? Ditto the Irish before 1921? Is every Kurd that Erdogan wants back from Sweden a terrorist? It’s in the eye of the beholder a bit, isn’t it? How often is George Washington described as a traitor? Very few Brits or Canadians do that because it might cost them business but he was. The key thing is to be a successful traitor or terrorist - then you can change how your previous actions are characterized. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[Mako]

On 4/6/2023 at 12:32 PM, blackbird said:

I will watch it today.

No.  But Romanism seems to believe that.  Also Reformed churches believe that and possibly some other denominations.  But dispensational churches, some Baptists, evangelicals, and possibly others don't believe that.  I believe the Bible does not support Replacement Theology.  

Many Protestants support Replacement Theory. You should too. Don’t you like the Bible?

Matthew 21

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 Romans 2

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

Israeli historian Benny Morris has acknowledged the many rapes and murders that occurred when the Zionists ethnically cleansed the nascent state of Israel:

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

“Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

“The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

“That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.”

[blackbird]

16 minutes ago, Mako said:

Many Protestants support Replacement Theory. You should too. Don’t you like the Bible?

Matthew 21

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 Romans 2

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Replacement theology is unbiblical.  This explains the issue quite clearly.  It is a result of not taking the Bible literally and and misinterpreting countless verses in the Old Testament and New Testament.  There is no justification for saying verses that clearly referred to Israel in the Old Testament meant the Church which began at the crucifixion.  Prior to that there was no Church.

"Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11)."

What is replacement theology / supersessionism? | GotQuestions.org

[blackbird]

35 minutes ago, Mako said:

Many Protestants support Replacement Theory. You should too. Don’t you like the Bible?

Matthew 21

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 Romans 2

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Replacement theology was started approximately 1,700 years ago by the Papal anti-Christ church which was founded on the ancient Religion of Babylon.  Without any basis, they claimed the Church replaced Israel.  This helped to fuel the 2,000 years of anti-Semitism.  The Reformers unfortunately carried it out of the Anti-Christ's system.  But the whole Bible has countless verses that refute Replacement Theology if you take the time to look.  

This video message goes into it and explains it.

 

[Mako]

25 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Replacement theology is unbiblical.  This explains the issue quite clearly.  It is a result of not taking the Bible literally and and misinterpreting countless verses in the Old Testament and New Testament.  There is no justification for saying verses that clearly referred to Israel in the Old Testament meant the Church which began at the crucifixion.  Prior to that there was no Church.

"Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9–11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).

Contrary to replacement theology, dispensationalism teaches that, after the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–5).

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. The strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1–7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11)."

What is replacement theology / supersessionism? | GotQuestions.org

I notice right away three big problems with your position.

1) Most Israelis are anti-Christian and even atheist.

https://www.eutimes.net/2023/03/israel-introduces-bill-to-outlaw-teaching-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ-sentence-violators-to-prison/

“Two influential members of Israel’s Knesset have introduced a bill to outlaw teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Israel and sentence violators to prison.”

2) Have the Jews been blessed in the last 2000 years? Think of the Holocaust. Think of Emperor Hadrian.

https://www.jpost.com/In-Jerusalem/Art-Hadrian-the-genocidal-emperor-commands-an-imperial-audience-at-the-Israel-Museum-438945

3) The founding of Israel involved many acts of rape and murder. And did you know many of the weapons used by the Zionists were supplied by Stalin?

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

18 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Replacement theology was started approximately 1,700 years ago by the Papal anti-Christ church which was founded on the ancient Religion of Babylon.  Without any basis, they claimed the Church replaced Israel.  This helped to fuel the 2,000 years of anti-Semitism.  The Reformers unfortunately carried it out of the Anti-Christ's system.  But the whole Bible has countless verses that refute Replacement Theology if you take the time to look.  

This video message goes into it and explains it.

 

Mainstream Christians from Justin Martyr and Augustine to Luther have supported Replacement Theory. Orthodox Churches and Presbyterian Churches have supported Replacement Theory.

I don’t know why you want to serve those who despise you.
 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mako

[blackbird]

44 minutes ago, Mako said:

Many Protestants support Replacement Theory. You should too. Don’t you like the Bible?

Matthew 21

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 Romans 2

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

quote

Actually, the answer to the question “What about the Jews” is clearly laid out in Scripture.

 

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:25-26

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

Not only do these verses blow away replacement theology, they also blow away amillennialism.

We cannot be in the kingdom right now because the fullness of the gentiles has to come in, and God’s attention will then go back to the Jews. This wont happen if we’re awaiting the final consummation after the kingdom.

But what about a literal Jew?

Is a Jewish person really a Jew according to the New Testament?

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Jew, Gentile, and church of God. Three different entities and yes a Jewish person really is a Jewish person.

Replacement theology is an anti semitic doctrine at heart. There is absolutely no reason to teach God is done with the Jews.

To further back destroy replacement theology, lets dig into the Book of Revelation.

unquote

Replacement theology refuted from Scripture | The Old Paths (wordpress.com)

 

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

Mainstream Christians from Augustine to Luther have supported Replacement Theory.

That is what I just said.  The Roman religion of Babylon, Romanism, taught it all along, which was a major cause of anti-Semitism in the Holy Roman Empire for 1,700 years.

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Mako said:

I notice right away two big problems with your position.

1) Most Israelis are anti-Christian and even atheist.

2) Have the Jews been blessed in the last 2000 years? Think of the Holocaust. Think of Emperor Hadrian.

https://www.jpost.com/In-Jerusalem/Art-Hadrian-the-genocidal-emperor-commands-an-imperial-audience-at-the-Israel-Museum-438945

That has absolutely nothing to do with what the Apostle Paul said in the verses I quoted to you and nothing to do with the Old Testament promises God made to Israel.

[blackbird]

13 minutes ago, Mako said:

Mainstream Christians from Augustine to Luther have supported Replacement Theory.

And they all supported the false Papal system except Luther who became a priest in it for a period of time, but then rejected it.  Luther was known to be very anti-Semitic by the way, although he was a good Reformation leader.  None of them were without error.  Anti-Semitism was common in Europe throughout the centuries culminating in the Holocaust.

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25 KJV)

[Mako]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

That is what I just said.  The Roman religion of Babylon, Romanism, taught it all along, which was a major cause of anti-Semitism in the Holy Roman Empire for 1,700 years.

Why do you support those who despise you?

Do you acknowledge many Protestants have supported Replacement Theory? Do you acknowledge that Church Fathers supported Replacement Theory?

Don’t be a fool.

Opposition to Replacement theory is a recent aberration from a few crackpots. Don’t you see you are being used?

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mako

[Mako]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

quote

Actually, the answer to the question “What about the Jews” is clearly laid out in Scripture.

 

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:25-26

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

Not only do these verses blow away replacement theology, they also blow away amillennialism.

We cannot be in the kingdom right now because the fullness of the gentiles has to come in, and God’s attention will then go back to the Jews. This wont happen if we’re awaiting the final consummation after the kingdom.

But what about a literal Jew?

Is a Jewish person really a Jew according to the New Testament?

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Jew, Gentile, and church of God. Three different entities and yes a Jewish person really is a Jewish person.

Replacement theology is an anti semitic doctrine at heart. There is absolutely no reason to teach God is done with the Jews.

To further back destroy replacement theology, lets dig into the Book of Revelation.

unquote

Replacement theology refuted from Scripture | The Old Paths (wordpress.com)

 

If a Jewish person is not religious, if they even hate monotheists, if they resemble Europeans more than Semites, if they have only a tenuous genetic connection to ancient Israelites, are they still Jewish?

[Mako]

Most Christian churches realize Israeli brutality and discrimination is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus.

https://www.wrmea.org/2019-march-april/ten-us-churches-now-sanction-israel-to-some-degree-and-with-caveats.html

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/27/evangelical-christians-must-rethink-their-reflexive-support-for-israel/

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mako

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Were the Jews who fought the British government in Palestine terrorists? Ditto the Irish before 1921? Is every Kurd that Erdogan wants back from Sweden a terrorist? It’s in the eye of the beholder a bit, isn’t it? How often is George Washington described as a traitor? Very few Brits or Canadians do that because it might cost them business but he was. The key thing is to be a successful traitor or terrorist - then you can change how your previous actions are characterized. 

It would seem that you have a problem with how Canada or the UN defines terrorist.  Does all your examples fit into that definition, then i would say yes they were terrorist.. and if they don't then no they were not terrorists. You can't rewrite history... if it quacks, has feathers, and walks like a duck then most likely it is a duck...

Being a traitor is not the same as terrorist, the last time anyone in Canada was Kanoa Inouye, for killing POW's during WWII, and Louis Riel and chief Poundmaker both i think have been forgiven by the government, In Canada one can be a traitor and not be tried for it, look at Omar the terrorist for the latest example. As the definition is to vague and government is to lazy to update it. 

 

[Americana Antifa]

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Hamas is stoking the fires of terrorism, it has no interest in peace "NONE",

True. But why does Hamas have so much support? Do you think it could be because the people in Gaza are relying on them for survival?

During WWII, there were Jews fleeing Nazi Germany and surrendering themselves to the Soviet Union. Why? Stalinist Russia was a horrible place. Why do you think Jews chose to migrate there anyway?

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

It would seem that you have a problem with how Canada or the UN defines terrorist.  Does all your examples fit into that definition, then i would say yes they were terrorist.. and if they don't then no they were not terrorists. You can't rewrite history... if it quacks, has feathers, and walks like a duck then most likely it is a duck...

Have a look at these actions. Do none of them qualify for your definition of terrorism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)

This is how their own newspaper justified their campaign:

Quote

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man."

But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

British PM Clement Attlee had this to say about the King David bombing:

Quote

Hon. Members will have learned with horror of the brutal and murderous crime committed yesterday in Jerusalem. Of all the outrages which have occurred in Palestine, and they have been many and horrible in the last few months, this is the worst. By this insane act of terrorism 93 innocent people have been killed or are missing in the ruins. The latest figures of casualties are 41 dead, 52 missing and 53 injured. I have no further information at present beyond what is contained in the following official report received from Jerusalem:

Future Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir’s code name in the organization was Michael, an apparent reference to Michael Collins, a key figure in the Irish Republican Army.

Yes, one can talk about legitimate military targets, collateral damage etc. All I’m saying is that this is a grey area. 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[BeaverFever]

23 hours ago, Mako said:

Most Christian churches realize Israeli brutality and discrimination is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus.

https://www.wrmea.org/2019-march-april/ten-us-churches-now-sanction-israel-to-some-degree-and-with-caveats.html

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/27/evangelical-christians-must-rethink-their-reflexive-support-for-israel/

Do they realize that Christian brutality and discrimination is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus?

[BeaverFever]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:18 PM, Army Guy said:

It is easy to make these judgements from your chair, safe at home, but in reality War is a terrible place where terrible things happen to both sides, difference is terrorist's attack what ever target is going to make a political point the loudest, like schools residential areas, hotels etc... And military targets are carefully selected to strike military targets, like terrorist, ammo dumps tunnels etc... and yes there is collateral damage and incent people die, welcome to the realties of war.. And while it may seem to you that both have the same results there is a huge difference in how they are carried out and the intention behind them...

     When you find a new way that eliminates collateral damage then tell them about it, they would be interested in it. 

THEY ARE NOT OCCUPIED...and once again if the Palestinians used that funding they get to build or buy new infra structure instead of war supplies, they would not be in this mess. No one is staving inside of Palestine.

 

Yes by all definitions they are occupied. That is just a fact. That is why they called the Occupied Territories. They are not a sovereign state. They are occupied by Israeli settlements and are under the control of Israel military. And and as I have mentioned several times now (which you continue to ignore) their access to basic goods and services and even permits for things like housing and wells are under Israeli government control.  
 

The “fog of war” excuse doesn’t cut it. 

[Mako]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Do they realize that Christian brutality and discrimination is antithetical to the teaching of Jesus?

Atheist brutality too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
 

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

[BeaverFever]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:50 PM, Army Guy said:

If they support, work for, or take part in terrorist activities then yes they are terrorists...and the way that the Muslims nations did when Israel was declared a nation...where most if not all of those nations involved Declared to the world they would push Israel into the sea, and exterminate every one of them. How do you justify that behavior ? 

Palestinians are responsible for their own actions. there are thousands of other actions they could take to solve this issue, and do you really think acts of terrorism is the best route...

They are not occupied, there are NO Israelis forces inside Palestine, they have their own police force, own military wing...The only time Israel crosses the border is to retaliate for a terrorist attack. SO NO OCCUPATION....

If Palestinians took all that funding they spend on terrorism they could afford to build their own infra structure...

Me and you are not going to solve this issue, regardless of your or mine beliefs... and across the ocean they really don't care what you or i think unless they are asking for money to fund their terrorist ways...This conflict will never end there is to much hate on both sides.  

But they are not singling out only those individuals who “support or work for” terrorists, they are issuing collective punishment on every single man woman and child regardless of their actions. 
 

Palestinians are under occupation, period. Even the Israeli Supreme Court calls it “Belligerent Occupation”. 
 

As am aside I think you may be confusing Israeli policy for Gaza with the other occupied territories as I believe there is a permanent military presence in all occupied territories except Gaza

[BeaverFever]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

Atheist brutality too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
 

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

All human nature is antithetical to the teaching of mythical characters like Jesus and Buddha. You give people a religion for inspiration to become more civilized and all that happens is that the religion becomes the justification for more barbarism. 

[BeaverFever]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:01 PM, CdnFox said:

Context DOES matter though.

It makes a difference if you're the agressor - launching missiles into a civillian area first is different than going after missle sites that are shooting at you. Who fires the first shot matters.

Shooting at civilians with intent  vs shooting at bad guys who surround themselves with civilians is Very Very different.

You can't dismiss that as the same thing. Everyone has a right to self defense.

I don't see them doing that much - but if that's the case... make peace.  Come to the table and say "enough - lets work this out". The world would support that - instead they elect a gov't who has "kill all isrealis and drive them into the sea" as a platform plank.  Then they're angry they're getting occupied?

They attack the isrelis constantly, they state they want to kill them, they use human shield tactics with their own people and such - sorry but i can't feel any sympathy for  people like that.  Context does matter - if they don't want peace then they can't complain about the war can they.

But the question of who is the aggressor is a chicken and egg argument. Today’s air strike is retaliation for yesterday’s rocket attack which was retaliation for the day before yesterday’s air strike which was retaliation for last week’s suicide bombing which was retaliation for the unarmed rock-throwing kids shot by Israeli troops after the village water supply was shut off by Israeli authorities during a drought for no obvious reason…yadda yadda, some provocateur trespassed on the other side’s the holy site, yadda yadda 1973, 1967, 1948 wars Kind David Hotel, Ottomans, Romans, etc. Heck even according to their own founding mythology, the original Jews were invaders of that land who slaughtered the local inhabitant. Abraham, mythical father of all Muslims Jews and Christians was said to be originally from Ur in southern Iraq. 
 

In other words at this point they are all aggressors. 

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

In other words at this point they are all aggressors. 

That's true if we're attempting to assess 'responsibility'.  As in 'which party is in the historical wrong here".

However there are real inciting events. If there is no violence at the moment and someone fires a rocket and violence breaks out - that event did incite the current violence.  And if you were the one who incited the violence then it's hard for you to claim a moral high position in what follows during that round of violence.

Anyone who wants peace has to agree to stop inciting violence. No rockets, no fire balloons no nothing.

 I think if there's one thing we can do as outsiders that might help a little is condemn whoever incites a round of violence directly. I think that would make both sides think twice - right now it's too common for one side to put a rocket launcher on a hospital, shoot and then when they fire back and destroy the launcher AND the hospital go crying to the international community about how mean the other guy is, It almost encourages violence.

[Mako]

39 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

All human nature is antithetical to the teaching of mythical characters like Jesus and Buddha. You give people a religion for inspiration to become more civilized and all that happens is that the religion becomes the justification for more barbarism. 

Do you believe the Buddha and Jesus were not real people?

Your blanket condemnation of all religion is kind of silly don’t you think?

Do you accept the fact that non-religious people have committed some of history’s worst crimes?