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A Study of the CURRENT State of Liberal and Conservative Ideologies


Nationalist

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35 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

No no...I think this is good stuff.

 

Of course you do.  But like I said earlier, that's not what this thread was supposed to be about.   If I was to reply to your points, it just becomes another in a long line of threads that eventually devolve into name calling and pantomime.

Perhaps a non-partisan thread about how we became so polarized isn't possible.

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8 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Of course you do.  But like I said earlier, that's not what this thread was supposed to be about.   If I was to reply to your points, it just becomes another in a long line of threads that eventually devolve into name calling and pantomime.

Perhaps a non-partisan thread about how we became so polarized isn't possible.

Perhaps. But I think it's worth a try.

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18 hours ago, Nationalist said:

OK granted. But "Trumpie" is incorrect. I had become much more nationalistic well before The Donald happened. Lets say...well..."Nationalist" actually fit best I think. Unless you have a reason for wanting to be abrasive?

Like I've said, the resentment was building/growing long before Trump.  I stand by "Trumpie", however, because it describes something distinct - not just right-wing or nationalist, but embracing "alternative facts" etc.  The election was stolen.  COVID is a fake news media conspiracy.  Vaccines cause autism.  Global warming is also conspiracy.  Wind Turbines cause cancer.  George Soros, MSM DEeP StaTe, Klaus Schwab etc....

18 hours ago, Nationalist said:

OK I said:

Is there a problem with this? Am I wrong about what drives Liberals?

Yes, I would think so.  

23 hours ago, Nationalist said:

How do we separate logic and common sense, from feelings of fairness and sympathy? Should they be separated?

They don't need to be separated.  Fairness and sympathy can be achieved within the bounds of common sense and logic.  If sentiments/action etc are falling outside of these bounds, we should criticize and try to change that.  You and I found a bit of common ground on the climate and energy mix, agreeing that shutting down nuclear plants was stupid when we don't yet have a better alternative, and that natural gas is a good temporary solution in favor of coal etc.  

Refusing to accept any climate action, or outright denying climate change, on the other hand, isn't any more logical or reasonable than demanding we phase out ICE vehicles by 2030 in favor of algae-powered batteries.  

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12 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I believe the financial and security concerns of America were served well by Trump. I like the results I perceive as important.

You believe that because he said it was, and repeated it every time and everywhere he could, but it doesn't bear out in the facts.  Trump inherited a booming economy mid-late cycle and job growth was lower under him than Obama.  Neither of those facts had much of anything to do with who was president, but politicians (and voters) like to pretend so.   

12 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Tell me...did you not enjoy the booming economy? Did the success somehow offend you?

By this metric then, I assume you were a big Obama fan, right?  

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2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Like I've said, the resentment was building/growing long before Trump.  I stand by "Trumpie", however, because it describes something distinct - not just right-wing or nationalist, but embracing "alternative facts" etc.  The election was stolen.  COVID is a fake news media conspiracy.  Vaccines cause autism.  Global warming is also conspiracy.  Wind Turbines cause cancer.  George Soros, MSM DEeP StaTe, Klaus Schwab etc....

Hmmm...Not sure Trump ever said COVID is a news media conspiracy. I had it...for about a day. Vaccines cause autism? Hadn't heard that. I do know they cause long, snake-like blood clots that have killed quite a number of people. Global warming is not a conspiracy. The response to it is extremely poorly thought out. Its unnecessarily destructive. Wind turbines can't "cause" cancer. We all have cancer...of one form or another. The question I think might be, 'Are the wind turbines causing cancer cells to become malignant? To grow?'

And George Soros has funded the "Defund The Police" thing. He does deserve all the criticism he gets. Maybe we should catch the guy and send him to Hungary?

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They don't need to be separated.  Fairness and sympathy can be achieved within the bounds of common sense and logic.  If sentiments/action etc are falling outside of these bounds, we should criticize and try to change that.  You and I found a bit of common ground on the climate and energy mix, agreeing that shutting down nuclear plants was stupid when we don't yet have a better alternative, and that natural gas is a good temporary solution in favor of coal etc.  

Refusing to accept any climate action, or outright denying climate change, on the other hand, isn't any more logical or reasonable than demanding we phase out ICE vehicles by 2030 in favor of algae-powered batteries. 

I wonder...

We agree that Climate Change is...happening. Most people I think would agree to that extent. Its warmer...overall.

I agree that the notion of getting rid of ICE vehicles by 2030...or any date barring the advent of a reasonable replacement for affordable transportation...especially for the logistics industry...is rather silly.

Is the use of the media as a weapon fair? Is the government and its agencies even legally able to influence our media?

I think there is, however, one thing we may never agree upon. I always suspected fraud in the 2020 election. Now maybe that's because I wanted Trump to win. But my senses always screamed FRAUD. There was lots of provable but rather insignificant offences. But nothing large enough to prove the theory...until Hunter Fcking Biden's Laptop. Now...we all know. Many will never admit it...but we do all know. And we all know that was hardly fair.

Sympathy...for whom? The people who have issues...for whatever reason...with the junk they have and the DNA they were born with? That may sound crass...hell it is crass...but...it is what it is. These people make up a very small percentage of the population. Yet there's laws specifically made to pay special attention to them. Now, that in and of itself is not a "bad" thing. But when it infringes on the rights of folks as set forth by the ever so holy American Constitution...well...we've seen the reaction. So sympathy? Sure. Action on said sympathy? If asked nicely. But certainly not like this.

Perhaps "fairness" and "sympathy" have a place in governmental decision making, but to assign too much weight to them produces destructive results. Not only physically...but sociologically as well. And to be fair...I would have to admit that the same would apply to the weight given nationalistic views.

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16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Hmmm...Not sure Trump ever said COVID is a news media conspiracy.

No, he said the worsening pandemic in the USA was a fake-news media conspiracy to make him look bad, and that the only reason the USA had a bigger COVID problem than everywhere else was because they were doing so much testing.  The fact that so many more people were dying irreconcilably disproved that, but Trump's genius is to repeat his claims loudly and often enough that they sort of become common (faux) knowledge.  There's a psychological term for that.  

The illusory truth effect, also known as the illusion of truth, describes how, when we hear the same false information repeated again and again, we often come to believe it is true. Troublingly, this even happens when people should know better—that is, when people initially know that the misinformation is false.

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/illusory-truth-effect

 
16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I had it...for about a day. Vaccines cause autism? Hadn't heard that. I do know they cause long, snake-like blood clots that have killed quite a number of people. Global warming is not a conspiracy. The response to it is extremely poorly thought out. Its unnecessarily destructive.

I'm not speaking about you.  I'm speaking about theories that Trump promoted.  

16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

Wind turbines can't "cause" cancer. We all have cancer...of one form or another. The question I think might be, 'Are the wind turbines causing cancer cells to become malignant? To grow?'

The question is nonsense, just like the theory of wind turbines causing cancer.  They're unsightly and (if you're close enough) noisy.  That's it.  

16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

We agree that Climate Change is...happening. Most people I think would agree to that extent. Its warmer...overall.

Donald Trump says it's a hoax, and many of his followers believe him.  

16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I think there is, however, one thing we may never agree upon. I always suspected fraud in the 2020 election. Now maybe that's because I wanted Trump to win. But my senses always screamed FRAUD.

That's really all there is to this.  You wanted Trump to win, and so did his followers.  Sometimes, however, things really are as simple as they look.  Deeply disliked, chaos-mongering presidents with record-low approval ratings should not be expected to win re-election.  Not only did he clearly lose, but he lost by the second biggest margin over the last 20 years.  He was the first president to lose re-election in 30 years, and he lost in what were usually firmly red states like Arizona and Georgia.  His favored candidates floundered in the 2022 mid-terms. Even now his approval rating among Americans languishes through the 30-40% range.  

The picture couldn't be painted any clearer.  Trump is unpopular.  These theories about election fraud and Hunter Biden's laptop etc are just coping with reality.  That's Trumpism at work.  

16 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Perhaps "fairness" and "sympathy" have a place in governmental decision making, but to assign too much weight to them produces destructive results. Not only physically...but sociologically as well. And to be fair...I would have to admit that the same would apply to the weight given nationalistic views.

There's the rub.  Both sides need to compromise.  Trumpism, however, has made this harder than ever.  We're not actually debating the issues anymore.  We're debating versions of reality, and that gets us nowhere.  

 

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3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

You believe that because he said it was, and repeated it every time and everywhere he could, but it doesn't bear out in the facts.  Trump inherited a booming economy mid-late cycle and job growth was lower under him than Obama.  Neither of those facts had much of anything to do with who was president, but politicians (and voters) like to pretend so.   

By this metric then, I assume you were a big Obama fan, right?  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/

This is from WAPO. One of the most liberal papers known to man kind. It says the same thing over and over. Trump's administration of the economy produced excellent results...and then The Rona hit. I've seen graphs and articles that show the Trump economy as having been poor. But they generally average out the entire term and The Rona number crap all over them. That's hardly...fair.

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21 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

No, he said the worsening pandemic in the USA was a fake-news media conspiracy to make him look bad, and that the only reason the USA had a bigger COVID problem than everywhere else was because they were doing so much testing.  The fact that so many more people were dying irreconcilably disproved that, but Trump's genius is to repeat his claims loudly and often enough that they sort of become common (faux) knowledge.  There's a psychological term for that.  

The illusory truth effect, also known as the illusion of truth, describes how, when we hear the same false information repeated again and again, we often come to believe it is true. Troublingly, this even happens when people should know better—that is, when people initially know that the misinformation is false.

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/illusory-truth-effect

 

I happen to think the death toll numbers were bloated way out of proportion too.

Its become apparent that if a person got hit by a bus, died but had The Rona, they became a Rona death. That was a warping of reality.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/utterly-unreliable-the-mystery-behind-the-true-covid-19-death-rate

As early as March of 2020, it was known. Then there's the global death rate which hardly blinked at The Rona.

Trump may have bloviated about it in his odd way, but the facts about this were already being exposed. Nobody needed Trump to tell them that.

38 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The question is nonsense, just like the theory of wind turbines causing cancer.  They're unsightly and (if you're close enough) noisy.  That's it.  

Actually...

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbines-health.htm

As I said...we don't yet know for sure. The possibility does exist. Trump definitely over played this one but to rational folk, we didn't know for sure then...and we still don't.

41 minutes ago, Moonbox said:
1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

 

Donald Trump says it's a hoax, and many of his followers believe him.  

I'm not so sure Trump said its all a hoax.

Quote

“I think something’s happening. Something’s changing and it’ll change back again,” said Trump. “I don’t think it’s a hoax. I think there’s probably a difference. But I don’t know that it’s manmade. I will say this: I don’t want to give trillions and trillions of dollars. I don’t want to lose millions and millions of jobs.”

https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/15/17977596/donald-trump-climate-change-hoax-60-minutes-interview

There's a Nationalist focused on the economy. Also, there's a person who isn't scared of the climate changing. I'm not so sure if I agree with his sentiments completely, but I don't happen to be scared of climate change. If I'm scared of anything, its the damage we're doing with this over the top response. I think its asinine.

 

48 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's really all there is to this.  You wanted Trump to win, and so did his followers.  Sometimes, however, things really are as simple as they look.  Deeply disliked, chaos-mongering presidents with record-low approval ratings should not be expected to win re-election.  Not only did he clearly lose, but he lost by the second biggest margin over the last 20 years.  He was the first president to lose re-election in 30 years, and he lost in what were usually firmly red states like Arizona and Georgia.  His favored candidates floundered in the 2022 mid-terms. Even now his approval rating among Americans languishes through the 30-40% range.  

The picture couldn't be painted any clearer.  Trump is unpopular.  These theories about election fraud and Hunter Biden's laptop etc are just coping with reality.  That's Trumpism at work.  

You really can't accept that people watched and saw fraud taking place. I could claim the same logic about you. I mean...this is all about Trump to you so it stands to reason that you would resist any evidence, regardless of how obvious, that there was no fraud in that election. But again...Hunter's laptop sort o' blows it all outta the water...don't it.

I think you might wanna consider just letting it go. Trump is not and should not be your sole focus. Its not mine and of those I would consider level headed conservatives...its not theirs.

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8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I happen to think the death toll numbers were bloated way out of proportion too.

Of course you do, but that's the same thing as the election being stolen.  

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Its become apparent that if a person got hit by a bus, died but had The Rona, they became a Rona death. That was a warping of reality.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/utterly-unreliable-the-mystery-behind-the-true-covid-19-death-rate

As early as March of 2020, it was known. Then there's the global death rate which hardly blinked at The Rona.

Trump may have bloviated about it in his odd way, but the facts about this were already being exposed. Nobody needed Trump to tell them that.

In March of 2020 nobody knew much of anything about COVID-19  They could barely even test for it.  This article doesn't support the above claim whatsoever.  

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Actually...

https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbines-health.htm

As I said...we don't yet know for sure. The possibility does exist. Trump definitely over played this one but to rational folk, we didn't know for sure then...and we still don't.

We sold our cottage because the CAW resort built a wind turbine a km away from me.  I know they're annoying, and why.  The whole town hated it, but it wasn't making anyone sick.  

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I'm not so sure Trump said its all a hoax.

trumphoax.thumb.png.1f1b88ec9dfbb49c655e4b2e75fb8fe1.png

He has, but as on many issues he's not particularly consistent or coherent.  

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

There's a Nationalist focused on the economy. Also, there's a person who isn't scared of the climate changing. I'm not so sure if I agree with his sentiments completely, but I don't happen to be scared of climate change. If I'm scared of anything, its the damage we're doing with this over the top response. I think its asinine.

Well that couldn't be more obvious, but then nobody is going to really listen to you if so many of the other ideas you're promoting aren't grounded in reality.  

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You really can't accept that people watched and saw fraud taking place.

I can accept that an irrelevantly small amount of real fraud happened, and that people witnessed it, but this happens every election.  What Donald Trump talks about is absolute crap and without evidence.  I've already listed all of the subsequent facts that support the 2020 election (like Donald Trump's sustained and abysmal approval rating, and how his candidates got curb-stomped in the mid-terms).

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I could claim the same logic about you. I mean...this is all about Trump to you so it stands to reason that you would resist any evidence, regardless of how obvious, that there was no fraud in that election. But again...Hunter's laptop sort o' blows it all outta the water...don't it.

You could claim the same logic about me if I was telling you,  "HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP IS A WITCH HUNT AND FAKE NEWS FROM ALL OF THE NASTY PEOPLE OUT THERE - VERY BAD PEOPLE - THE WORST REALLY - ITS TRUE."

8 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I think you might wanna consider just letting it go. Trump is not and should not be your sole focus. Its not mine and of those I would consider level headed conservatives...its not theirs.

Trump's not my focus anymore.  It's the people still promoting all of his nonsense.  

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13 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Oh wow, look at that, one stays away from the mob, one can be reasonable in his language and even talk like a somewhat reasonable man towards the end. 

Even though I disagree with probably all points, man can hold a conversation. I won't go on about Trump because we will be here until tomorrow morning. 

Is all about exposure and who you surround yourself with. With more exposure away from the mob, maybe real reason will find you, one day. 

Hint: Real Reason is not at Redacted in my view. ?

Your hint is noted...as is your lack of anything useful to the purpose of this thread.

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1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

Soon, need to read some more though. Your resume is the issue.

Is like a hyena that spent attacking all the ideas of understanding between people and now you come in as the good wolf via 1 thread only claiming that you want to discuss this rationally now. 

I am a suspicious person in nature and don't even trust members of my own family at times, whoever is still around. Sometimes those are the ones that get you the most, emotional guard down. ?

You don't like my opinions so you want to derail the thread?

If that's the case...go back to copy and paste.

You are very good at that.

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4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You don't like my opinions so you want to derail the thread?

If that's the case...go back to copy and paste.

You are very good at that.

While I do appreciate that you are making an attempt to act more reserved, I have noted one reoccurring issue with a majority of your beliefs. You base your beliefs, about a lot of the issues you are adamant about, on suppositions and speculations. 

For example: even though nothing found on hunters laptop has been verified to of implicated the president, you now, because of your suppositions, assume this lost the election for Donald....... I mean come on..... Are you high? From day one.... Sans any evidence of fraud, Donald claimed fraud existed. ..... And from that point on all his lackeys have been stretching reality in an attempt to make something.... Anything stick.... That these truths are not an issue to you, tells me that anything that affirms your bias, you are going to attempt to exploit regardless of how foolish or absurd they are.

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1 hour ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

While I do appreciate that you are making an attempt to act more reserved, I have noted one reoccurring issue with a majority of your beliefs. You base your beliefs, about a lot of the issues you are adamant about, on suppositions and speculations. 

For example: even though nothing found on hunters laptop has been verified to of implicated the president, you now, because of your suppositions, assume this lost the election for Donald....... I mean come on..... Are you high? From day one.... Sans any evidence of fraud, Donald claimed fraud existed. ..... And from that point on all his lackeys have been stretching reality in an attempt to make something.... Anything stick.... That these truths are not an issue to you, tells me that anything that affirms your bias, you are going to attempt to exploit regardless of how foolish or absurd they are.

Groovy. Lets explore that.

1. The laptop exists.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hunter-biden-laptop-1.6734354

https://nypost.com/2022/03/30/washington-post-admits-hunter-biden-laptop-is-real/

2. The non-reporting of the laptop before the 2020 election probably cost Trump the election.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11529381/Hunter-Bidens-laptop-Voters-lacked-critical-information-2020-election-survey-shows.html

https://nypost.com/2022/08/26/2020-election-outcome-would-differ-with-hunter-biden-laptop-coverage-poll/

These are not "absurd or foolish" unless you can't read. Or perhaps don't want to read. So Barb, if we're going to have a discussion about this, lets start from a point of truth.

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3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Groovy. Lets explore that.

1. The laptop exists.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hunter-biden-laptop-1.6734354

https://nypost.com/2022/03/30/washington-post-admits-hunter-biden-laptop-is-real/

2. The non-reporting of the laptop before the 2020 election probably cost Trump the election.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11529381/Hunter-Bidens-laptop-Voters-lacked-critical-information-2020-election-survey-shows.html

https://nypost.com/2022/08/26/2020-election-outcome-would-differ-with-hunter-biden-laptop-coverage-poll/

These are not "absurd or foolish" unless you can't read. Or perhaps don't want to read. So Barb, if we're going to have a discussion about this, lets start from a point of truth.

And yet you have no idea if anything implicating the president exists on that laptop. That you do not understand this.... IMHO... Proves that your bias will not allow you to see reason.

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22 minutes ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

And yet you have no idea if anything implicating the president exists on that laptop. That you do not understand this.... IMHO... Proves that your bias will not allow you to see reason.

OK...lets explore that too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjMgoTysZj9AhVMlIkEHcflCL8QFnoECA8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Foversight.house.gov%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F11%2FInterim-Staff-Report-A-President-Compromised-The-Biden-Family-Investigation-1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2QbrrkT9zBsa0q0IKvzBM9

That's a PDF. Its rather long but its rather detailed.

https://nypost.com/2020/10/14/email-reveals-how-hunter-biden-introduced-ukrainian-biz-man-to-dad/

Oh and I know you'll just love this clip from Hannity...Start at 1:30 if you're not interested in all the flag waving and crap at the beginning...

 

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18 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

1. The laptop exists.

 

So far we're on the same page.

18 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

2. The non-reporting of the laptop before the 2020 election probably cost Trump the election.

 

This could of been viable but only if incriminating evidence against the president was withheld. Tell me, what incriminating evidence against the president was withheld? 

Without incriminating evidence against the president, the only thing withheld from the public were dick pics of hunter.  AAnd that's regardless of what the "polls" you cited concluded. 

Now, do you understand my point? Or, are you still going to conclude that withholding hunters dick pics from the public cost Donald the election.

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1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

The pdf link doesn't work.

If, after the criminal probe, it is verified that the president acted illegally, then I will concede. Until then, your just one more MAGA cultist scrounging on the floor for any crumb that might prove your demigod correct.

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1 minute ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

The pdf link doesn't work.

If, after the criminal probe, it is verified that the president acted illegally, then I will concede. Until then, your just one more MAGA cultist scrounging on the floor for any crumb that might prove your demigod correct.

It should download a PDF to your downloads folder. Check it.

No...I'm pursuing the truth. Look...you've gone from...

2 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

While I do appreciate that you are making an attempt to act more reserved, I have noted one reoccurring issue with a majority of your beliefs. You base your beliefs, about a lot of the issues you are adamant about, on suppositions and speculations. 

Dis-proven. And...

2 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

For example: even though nothing found on hunters laptop has been verified to of implicated the president, you now, because of your suppositions, assume this lost the election for Donald....... I mean come on..... Are you high? From day one.... Sans any evidence of fraud, Donald claimed fraud existed. ..... And from that point on all his lackeys have been stretching reality in an attempt to make something.... Anything stick.... That these truths are not an issue to you, tells me that anything that affirms your bias, you are going to attempt to exploit regardless of how foolish or absurd they are.

to what you're saying now.

So has Joe Biden done something illegal? Well...strictly speaking, yes. He has all sorts of classified documents from when he was VP. Not that I think anyone has the apatite to go after this. But ya...he broke the law. I suspect they all do this every day.

Is there reason to suspect there's a lot more to this than what even you have thus far been unwilling to admit?

Sure sounds like it.

Its not a "bad" thing to pursue the truth.

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10 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

Dis-proven. And...

Only in your tiny mind.

11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

So has Joe Biden done something illegal? Well...strictly speaking, yes. He has all sorts of classified documents from when he was VP. 

I was talking about incriminating evidence against the president on hunters laptop. Damn your f__kung stupid. Stay on topic halfwit.

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

Is there reason to suspect there's a lot more to this than what even you have thus far been unwilling to admit?

 

Again with your st_pid ass speculation. Where is your proof that hunters laptop has evidence that incriminates the president? Where's the proof? 

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Well, there are the conservatives that existed before Trump, and then there's the MAGA movement which Trump didn't necessarily invent, but certainly took advantage of. Trump's campaign was willing to abandon a huge chunk of traditional conservatives in exchange for stitching together some of the ugliest constituencies in America. He said ugly things. He did ugly things. And the uglier it got the more his new base loved it. It became professional wrestling. From an electoral perspective, it seems to have been successful. But the consequence of embracing those diverse flavors of far-right radicalism is that the conversation focuses a lot more on hate and spite than on actual values. Suddenly the most Republican Republicans are being called RINOs and Obama and Clinton should be executed for treason and PWN the LIBS! It's why the Republican party hasn't formalized a platform in ages. The party doesn't collectively stand for anything anymore except beating the Democrats.

 

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3 hours ago, CrakHoBarbie said:

Only in your tiny mind.

I was talking about incriminating evidence against the president on hunters laptop. Damn your f__kung stupid. Stay on topic halfwit.

Again with your st_pid ass speculation. Where is your proof that hunters laptop has evidence that incriminates the president? Where's the proof? 

So you didn't read the links...OK.

Yes well, if we're gonna believe either Bobuliski or Biden...I'm sort o' leaning towards Bobulinski's story.

Barb...you really should try not being so blind. You've read...supposedly...the links provided and still you rail on about proof.

Which brings us to another interesting difference between liberal and conservative. I need to ask, how do liberals manage to completely disregard their own senses?

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