Ontario: Back in Black

[Moonbox]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:45 PM, Michael Hardner said:

This says a 2 bedroom is $2700/month in Toronto and $40K pay means you bring home less than that.

This really isn't how this comparison should be made.  I don't know why we would use the average price of a two-bedroom apartment in the most expensive market in Canada and weigh that against low-skilled single-income professionals.  If we're talking CUPE support workers, presumably they'd have two incomes supporting a two-bedroom apartment, and we'd at least be looking at the lower-end of prices and/or probably things on the outskirts and suburbs. 

Regardless, housing and shelter costs are a separate problem altogether and one not limited to school support workers. 

On 11/2/2022 at 12:24 PM, Boges said:

No. Teachers have their own Unions. 

Dofo Caves to the low skilled education workers, they Teacher's Unions will up the ante I'm sure. 

 This, as I've said before, is the bigger issue.  CUPE school support workers getting a noticeable raise isn't an outlandish request.  That the Teacher's Union will use these increases as the low-water mark for their own negotiations is the problem, and that's the calculus I think that Dofo and his government are running.   

[Michael Hardner]

21 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. This really isn't how this comparison should be made.   

2. CUPE school support workers getting a noticeable raise isn't an outlandish request.  That the Teacher's Union will use these increases as the low-water mark for their own negotiations is the problem, and that's the calculus I think that Dofo and his government are running.   

1. It's just for context.  People on here talk about trying to help workers and I am only pointing out how hard it is right now.
2. They will ask for less than 11%

[Moonbox]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. It's just for context.  People on here talk about trying to help workers and I am only pointing out how hard it is right now.
2. They will ask for less than 11%

Fair enough, and I agree, but it's hard for everyone.  They've already dropped their demand to 6%, which is at least getting reasonable. I suspect they'll end up getting something approaching that, but the brinksmanship we're seeing now is probably not about the CUPE support workers, but rather the teachers themselves, who will certainly use whatever they get as precedent/comparison for what they think teachers should get.  

 

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. Fair enough, and I agree, but it's hard for everyone.  They've already dropped their demand to 6%, which is at least getting reasonable.

2. I suspect they'll end up getting something approaching that, but the brinksmanship we're seeing now is probably not about the CUPE support workers, but rather the teachers themselves, who will certainly use whatever they get as precedent/comparison for what they think teachers should get.  

 

1.  It's below the current level of inflation, so yes very reasonable.  Not sure how many years in the contract, though.  
2. Why shouldn't they try for the best deal they can get for themselves ?  Isn't that's why people organize themselves ?  There are lots of problems with organized labour and management thereof but unless somebody is submitting some better ideas banning unions isn't a great way to run a province.

[Moonbox]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

1.  It's below the current level of inflation, so yes very reasonable.  Not sure how many years in the contract, though.

I think it's 4 years.  I'm always confused by the terminology they use in the news though.  They'll say stuff like 11.7% annual raise over 4 years, which means an added ~3% per year and below inflation probably over that time IF that's what it means.  That's pretty reasonable, so if the apparent offer from CUPE is 6% now over the same time span, I'd say Ford looks pretty bad shutting that down.  

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

2. Why shouldn't they try for the best deal they can get for themselves ?  Isn't that's why people organize themselves ?  There are lots of problems with organized labour and management thereof but unless somebody is submitting some better ideas banning unions isn't a great way to run a province.

The raison d'etre of labour unions isn't in question.  It's the militancy of the public sector unions (with the Ontario Teacher's Union being one of the worst offenders) taking advantage of a labour monopolies to gouge taxpayers for compensation packages, job security and lifestyles that most similarly educated private sector workers could only dream of.  

Again, the school support workers are not the problem.  We only need to look at what they're earning to see that.  It's the Teachers that are making more than double what they do.  The ideal solution here is CUPE gets their raise, teachers get nothing, but, like, that's just my opinion man.  

[PIK]

22 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So you wouldn’t trade jobs?  Or you would?

Why not? It would have been easier to get where I am now. And having a OMERS Pension is like winning a lottery. But the sad part. They didn't protest in front of schools,they did it on main street, using up parking spots for the merchants, even using a parking lot of a small grocery store, for the whole day. Playing music and eating pizza. Showed their true arrogance. It's all about them, but yet carrying signs that's its about the students. Big joke.

[Michael Hardner]

OMG they ate pizza ?

[PIK]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

OMG they ate pizza ?

Yes mike they did. It was a joke. They are all jokes. Why protest and whine about having it so tough in front of retail people ,that have been struggling to stay afloat. Do you understand what "poor optics" is? Or you think this action by so-called education workers is just fine? 

[TreeBeard]

4 hours ago, PIK said:

Why not?

So, go get an education and you can be a special needs assistant, trying to help someone’s autistic child get an education.  Think you can handle that?  $25/hr sound about right?  
 

Why are you whining about someone else’s pay and benefits?  Go get them for yourself!  Pick yourself up by your bootstraps, work hard and maybe you could make a better life for yourself. 

[PIK]

19 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

So, go get an education and you can be a special needs assistant, trying to help someone’s autistic child get an education.  Think you can handle that?  $25/hr sound about right?  
 

Why are you whining about someone else’s pay and benefits?  Go get them for yourself!  Pick yourself up by your bootstraps, work hard and maybe you could make a better life for yourself. 

Like I said I have worked hard, and doing well. These people need to STFU and get back to work. Not my.fault they want everything up front. What was sad was the new employees  who hardly have spent anytime in the work force, screaming for more. And I would love to see how many actually wanted to strike.

 

[RedDog]

When you remove POTawa extortion, Alberta owns CanaDUH, bought and paid for. OntariOWE is irrelevant.

Edited November 6, 2022 by RedDog

[herbie]

Not your fault, but it's your problem when they take away your right to strike.

And I see few of the posters who whine excessively about imaginary loss of freedumbs saying squat about Ford taking away an actual civil right...

[ExFlyer]

18 hours ago, RedDog said:

When you remove POTawa extortion, Alberta owns CanaDUH, bought and paid for. OntariOWE is irrelevant.

Absolutely incorrect. Ontario accounted for 40% of Canadian GDP.

What is irrelevant is Alberta and your repetitive banter.

[RedDog]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Absolutely incorrect. Ontario accounted for 40% of Canadian GDP.

What is irrelevant is Alberta and your repetitive banter.

Excellent. Then you need to come up with a trillion dollars please.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, RedDog said:

Excellent. Then you need to come up with a trillion dollars please.

What happened to your Heritage fund ???

[RedDog]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What happened to your Heritage fund ???

The “rules” concerning what is taxable or accessible are written in central CanaDUH at the expense of the rich “colonies”. Alberta is owed a trillion dollars.

[RedDog]

Plus interest. Alberta effectively owns CanaDUH. Bought and paid for.

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, RedDog said:

The “rules” concerning what is taxable or accessible are written in central CanaDUH at the expense of the rich “colonies”. Alberta is owed a trillion dollars.

Another non-answer from you.   Please get with the times and stop hoping that Oil will be a key industry for another century.