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Canada intends to service Russian pipeline turbines circumventing the sanctions


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8 minutes ago, myata said:

Yeah right it takes a bit of standing back, much clearer from the perspective. Say, who have you defeated over a few decades? Were they a fair match?

whatever, if you don't want to take the word of elite warfighting professionals, then you are immune to eivdence

hence no reason to even talk to you about it anymore

suit yourself, moving on /shrugs

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You won't fight a real, brutal and ruthless adversary. No too risky and unpredictable. Safer to move the line.

There are no reasons your units couldn't be there protecting cities. It's Putin who has no right to be there. You didn't have to cut sanctions in thin slices, careful not to hurt the partner-adversary too deep. You didn't have to calculate what to give or not to a victim of a brutal, murderous attack. See all these lines, they are drawn by your hand. Putin never needed them, he makes whatever he wants on a snap. They are drawn by you and reflect on you, only.

Edited by myata
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3 minutes ago, myata said:

You won't fight a real, brutal and ruthless adversary. No too risky and unpredictable. Safer to move the line.

There's no reasons your units couldn't be there protecting cities. You didn't have to cut sanctions in thin slices, careful not to hurt partner-adversary too deep. You didn't have to calculate what to give or not to a victim of a brutal, murderous attack. See all these lines, they are drawn by your hand. Putin never needed them, he makes whatever he wants on a snap. They are drawn by you and reflect on you, only.

you're free to your views, but I have no further comment

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On 7/13/2022 at 5:53 PM, myata said:

And here's Canada. It declared a shiny and staunchly uncompromised support and condemnation blah. And it declared sanctions. And now it wants to circumvent its own sanctions servicing Russian turbines by German company in Canada. Why in Canada? Does it make sense already? Or should you follow your declared commitments and principles?

My own take on it would be this:

If a Canadian company, or a company operating in Canada, has business commitments, the failure to live up to those commitments is a massive breach of business ethics which could have far ranging consequences.

I understand that it would make sense in a war like WWII, if we refused to service German equipment, but we aren't at war with Russia and the pipeline being serviced also benefits our NATO allies (while also making them more reliant on Russia...)

I wouldn't be surprised if Trudeau wanted us to back out, unless the job losses would be in Quebec, but I'd be more surprised if Trudeau genuinely gave a shit about Ukrainians. 

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13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Trudeau wanted us to back out, unless the job losses would be in Quebec, but I'd be more surprised if Trudeau genuinely gave a shit about Ukrainians. 

all the Western elites, to include both the Liberals & the Democrats, assumed this would be a walkover for Russia

obviously the Kremlin assumed this would be a walkover

nobody embarks on a quagmire war like this intentionally

even I thought the Russians would do better

I predicted this war

but I predicted the Russians would be able to seize all the territory east of the Dniepr river

yet the Russians have fallen well short of that

the main factor has been the Russian lack of decisive air power

the Russian air force has failed to show up in any significant way

so now the Russians have been reduced to an artillery war of attrition

and not for any strategic gain, just a slight expansion of where they were in 2014

they can't stretch their supply lines beyond the Donbass

they might be able to hold Luhannsk, Donetsk, Kherson & Crimea

but that is not a strategic win, they already had an enclave in East Ukraine

they've made that enclave slightly bigger, but it hasn't altered the balance of power

Edited by Dougie93
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5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I understand that it would make sense in a war like WWII, if we refused to service German equipment, but we aren't at war with Russia and the pipeline being serviced also benefits our NATO allies (while also making them more reliant on Russia...)

This is a fair view, sure in 1940 France could have and probably had business deals with Hitler's Germany till the very day it was attacked. Is it not clear who Putin is relative to him? Can anyone promise that emboldened by a meek reaction Russia wouldn't attack a NATO country. Be a guest of history.

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1 minute ago, myata said:

This is a fair view, sure in 1940 France could have and probably had business deals with Hitler's Germany till the very day it was attacked. Is it not clear who Putin is relative to him? Can anyone promise that emboldened by a meek reaction Russia wouldn't attack a NATO country. Be a guest of history.

Judging by how poorly Russia is faring against Ukraine, they definitely don't want to engage NATO. 

It's like if you were struggling to beat the 20th-ranked super-middleweight, you wouldn't want to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. 

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

you wouldn't want to fight Mike Tyson in his prime. 

That would be a rational argument. Does any of this look rational though? Can we understand murderous psychos on any rational basis? Russia has no exit now but to raise the drama and escalate. Its propaganda machine is pumped up on the level or higher than Nazi's. They can't stop even if wanted to.

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5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the main factor has been the Russian lack of decisive air power

the Russian air force has failed to show up in any significant way

A couple of months ago I saw Lara Logan mentioning that one of Russia's main problems was that they didn't have the financial wherewithal to do extensive training where the air force combined with ground units. For that reason their campaign isn't nearly as cohesive as an American assault would be. 

But TBH, wars of conquest/domination aren't as easy as wars against other armies, unless you're prepared to go genocidal. 

It was easy for the US to dismantle Iraq's army, they basically rampaged across the country at 60mph. They could have wiped out Afghanistan's army in a NY minute. But after 20+ years in Afghanistan, America changed nothing.

Russia is actually gaining a lot of ground in Ukraine by comparison. 

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1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

A couple of months ago I saw Lara Logan mentioning that one of Russia's main problems was that they didn't have the financial wherewithal to do extensive training where the air force combined with ground units. For that reason their campaign isn't nearly as cohesive as an American assault would be. 

But TBH, wars of conquest/domination aren't as easy as wars against other armies, unless you're prepared to go genocidal. 

It was easy for the US to dismantle Iraq's army, they basically rampaged across the country at 60mph. They could have wiped out Afghanistan's army in a NY minute. But after 20+ years in Afghanistan, America changed nothing.

Russia is actually gaining a lot of ground in Ukraine by comparison. 

the Russians are a boutique military just like the Canadian Forces are

the Russian's main objective is to sell weapons to foreign customers, same as Canada

but the Russian military doesn't have the logistics to sustain complex operations against a determined foe

same as Canada

the Russians have some fancy military hardware

but it doesn't add up to a comprehensive capability at the strategic level

same as Canada

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1 minute ago, myata said:

That would be a rational argument. Does any of this look rational though? Can we understand murderous psychos on any rational basis? Russia has no exit now but to raise the drama and escalate. Its propaganda machine is pumped up on the level or higher than Nazi's. They can't stop even if wanted to.

I personally don't feel like Putin is being irrational. If I lived in Russia I wouldn't want NATO troops along the Ukraine border either. 

IMO it's irrational to think that the US and Ukraine are blameless for this war. 

It may seem like Ukraine is the victim here, because Russian soldiers came into their country, but Russia was provoked in a major way. They had no choice but respond.

No offence intended, but my own personal opinion is fuck Ukraine. If they didn't threaten to bring in NATO they wouldn't be in a war right now. 

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3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Russia is actually gaining a lot of ground in Ukraine by comparison.

Wow wow depends on what you call a comparison. Iraq war (defeating of Saddam's regime) lasted about 6 weeks. Afghan war, active period, less than 3 months. We are almost into the sixth and Russia failed to achieve any one of its stated goals fighting an adversary who had no army a few years back. That's called "gaining" for sure only in what language?

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Just now, Dougie93 said:

the Russians are a boutique military just like the Canadian Forces are

the Russian's main objective is to sell weapons to foreign customers, same as Canada

That's actually pretty sad and funny at the same time.

Quote

but the Russian military doesn't have the logistics to sustain complex operations against a determined foe

same as Canada

the Russians have some fancy military hardware

but it doesn't add up to a comprehensive capability at the strategic level

same as Canada

Canada is still a moon-cast shadow of Russia militarily. We'd be like Ukraine, just relying on some of America's superior military technology to win us some small victories. 

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

That's actually pretty sad and funny at the same time.

Canada is still a moon-cast shadow of Russia militarily. We'd be like Ukraine, just relying on some of America's superior military technology to win us some small victories. 

the Russians are just a giant version of Canada

but all that mass at the tactical level still doesn't move the ball at the strategic level

the Russians are an artillery army with a lot of tanks

they are an outdated 1980's Soviet style conscript force

they are literally forty years behind the times

the Russians fighting NATO would be like a 1940's military trying to fight a 1980's military

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Just now, myata said:

Wow wow depends on what you call a comparison. Iraq war (defeating of Saddam's regime) lasted about 6 weeks. Afghan war, active period, less than 3 months. We are almost into the sixth and Russia failed to achieve any one of its stated goals fighting an adversary who had no army a few years back. That's called "gaining" for sure only in what language?

I meant by a comparison of US in Afghanistan vs Russia in Ukraine. 

Russia is making progress, however slowly. America's involvement in Afghanistan was a net gain of zero today.

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4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I meant by a comparison of US in Afghanistan vs Russia in Ukraine. 

Russia is making progress, however slowly. America's involvement in Afghanistan was a net gain of zero today.

counterinsurgency is not an analogy

this is not counterinsurgency, that is a totally different animal: winning hearts & minds ( mission impossible )

this is conventional force on force manoeuvre war

and the Ukrainians are holding their own against the vaunted Russians

this is not a walkover, the Russians are bogged down in a quagmire here

the closest analogy is Stalin's Winter War in Finland 1939-40

Edited by Dougie93
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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

the Russians are just a giant version of Canada

Sort of.

Russia still has their version of stealth fighters. We have none. 

They have guided missile cruisers, we have frigates.

They have nuclear subs, we have gas cans. 

They have bombers, we have whatever CF-18s can carry.

They have ICBMs, we have orators.

They have lots of stuff that we don't have. Everything that we have is a mini-version of what the big boys have. 

We have a jacknife, lots of people have samurai swords. We just don't compare.

We're the little dog bouncing along beside Spike in the old Loony Toons. 

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3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Sort of.

Russia still has their version of stealth fighters. We have none. 

They have guided missile cruisers, we have frigates.

They have nuclear subs, we have gas cans. 

They have bombers, we have whatever CF-18s can carry.

They have ICBMs, we have orators.

They have lots of stuff that we don't have. Everything that we have is a mini-version of what the big boys have. 

We have a jacknife, lots of people have samurai swords. We just don't compare.

We're the little dog bouncing along beside Spike in the old Loony Toons. 

the Canadian CF-18's with the newly installed AN/APG-79V4 Radar & AIM-120D AMRAAM

would be shooting the Russians down with impunity here

the Russian A2A missiles suck, they would stand no chance against even aging Canadian CF-18's

Russian tech is junk, bro

the Russians stand no chance against the American tech that Canada uses

Edited by Dougie93
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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

this conventional force on force manoeuvre war

The Ukrainians are fighting a guerrilla warfare battle. 

The Russians have to destroy all kinds of civilian targets to hit the Ukrainian military. They're even using ambulances as troop transports. It's an embarrassment to real soldiers to be compared to Ukrainians.

This is a war of propaganda as much as anything.

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3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Canadian CF-18's with the newly installed AN/APG-79V4 Radar & AIM-120D AMRAAM

would be shooting the Russians down with impunity here

the Russian A2A missiles suck, they would stand no chance against even aging Canadian CF-18's

Russian tech is junk, bro

the Russians stand no chance against the American tech that Canada uses

I totally agree with you on the tech front, but we're still an army of "smalls". Small tanks, small planes, small subs, small surface ships, no missiles, etc.

Re: fighter planes however, the Su-57 is more of a comparable to a Raptor than a CF-18.

The SU-57s are also getting battle-tested now. The CF-18s have never been a 'go-to' piece in any war. They're like close support for American fighters. 

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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

no they aren't

this is an old fashioned WWII style artillery duel

Russian 152mm howitzers v. American HIMARS 227mm rocckets

If Russia really wanted to advance against the Ukrainian army, they'd have to flatten every building that they passed, because that's where the danger from the Ukrainian army lies: RPGs fired form civilian targets to destroy Russian tanks. 

I have no sympathy for the Ukrainians, they have no honour. Just Nazis and cowards (who ride around in ambulances). 

Edited by WestCanMan
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1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

I totally agree with you on the tech front, but we're still an army of "smalls". Small tanks, small planes, small subs, small surface ships, no missiles, etc.

Re: fighter planes however, the Su-57 is more of a comparable to a Raptor than a CF-18.

The SU-57s are also getting battle-tested now. The CF-18s have never been a 'go-to' piece in any war. They're like close support for American fighters. 

but Russia only has 7 Su-57's

it's not an operational aircraft deployed for war

it's just a prototype they truck out for airshows

 

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1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

If Russia really wanted to advance against the Ukrainian army, they'd have to flatten every building that they passed, because that's where the danger from the Ukrainian army lies: RPGs fired form civilian targets to destroy Russian tanks. 

I have no sympathy for the Ukrainians, they have no honour. Just Nazis and cowards. 

you are married to your identity politics narrative

I have no interest in arguing with your dogmatic narratives /shrugs

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9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but Russia only has 7 Su-57's

it's not an operational aircraft deployed for war

it's just a prototype they truck out for airshows

 

How many CF-18s are still operational?

We had less than 150 to start with, could we get 90 of them up in the air today?

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