End of democracy project: Canada

[Queenmandy85]

24 minutes ago, myata said:

Queenmandy, if it walks and talks like a duck you know what it is, right?

That is the problem. I don't speak duck. ?

 

25 minutes ago, myata said:

So if in a country MPs who don't do much, don't decide anything

You are wrong. MP's work long hours and decide whether or not to support legislation. Caucus meetings can be very contentious. Have you ever sat down with your MP to find out what she / he does? As I've said many times before, if your MP is not performing to your satisfaction, get a better one elected or run for parliament yourself. You say the money is so great. First, start saving $100K for your nomination and campaign. It will need to be money you won't get back. Quit your job or take a leave of absence about 18 months before the election and get out meeting people and knocking on doors in your riding. Find a really good campaign manager, someone who will keep you focused. Identify your support and get out the vote. Participate in our national sport.

Or, you can stay home and complain that nobody will change things. Your choice. Cheers.

[myata]

22 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

MP's work long hours and decide whether or not to support legislation.

With 100% agreement, like Kim's? You've got to be kidding. See, Mandy, the problem is not of rationalization. Since times immemorial and forgotten some people have come up with reasons and rationalizations why they should be entitled to rule (with perks associated with it, obviously) while others, not. And that's OK that's what we humans understand and do. The problem is that those ruled still need to agree to be ruled or there would conflicts, wars, revolutions not good for business generally. And that's why folks came up with the notion of democracy. Not just because they liked the word.

Now, democracy does not have a single golden standard. Rather there's that elusive notion of democratic legitimacy basically that the majority and a large one sees the process as democratic and legitimate (note, not necessarily being that, by objective measure). And from that perspective there's no problem either, hard to argue that a very large majority in this country sees the system as legitimate. So be it.

But there's a problem still. It's that the system is outdated, to the point of archaic; inefficient; inadequate and incapable of understanding and managing a complex modern society; closed and self-absorbed; isolated; entrenched; and entitled to the point of outrageous and obscene, and third world too, to mention.

And that is a problem. History and evolution show us again and again that it can be a big problem without easy solutions. So just believing it and repeating same old over and over doesn't really solve problems, in evolution. Dinosaurs know it.

[cougar]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Myata, you love to talk gibberish and it is very entertaining, but I have told you many times how to bring about what ever change you want, but you refuse to act.

There is a big niche for this type of people who can generate the largest amount of gibberish in the shortest period of time.  Usually they get political or management careers, or plain sales jobs in the worst case scenario.

1 hour ago, myata said:

Queenmandy, if it walks and talks like a duck you know what it is, right? So if in a country MPs who don't do much, don't decide anything are paid, out of public pocket, relative to a regular citizen, like in Honduras, that country has to be Honduras. This is only logic, I insist.

If you want to call Canada Honduras, go ahead, I am not offended.  There are plenty or Hoduras citizens in Canada.  You can also call it China, India, Mexico, Peru, Jamaica, Indonesia, Philippines ............you get what I mean - put the citizens of all those nations together and they may turn out to be a majority in Canada.  But most MP's you refer to are "old stock Canadians" from Anglosaxon or French origin.  Turns out their moral compass and values in life are not any higher than those of politicians in any banana republic.

Edited May 4, 2022 by cougar

[Queenmandy85]

Just what problems are you wanting to solve? We live in one of the most affluent societies in history. 

The difficulty with many citizens having a say on legislation is not many of us have the time and resources to run things. The average citizen is capable but we delegate these duties to MP's. The Crown delegates running the executive to MP's and Senators. The politicians receive advice from professional civil servants. An example is the Covid crisis. It was an event for which a speedy response was required. The public health professionals gave the government their best advice and we have had a better outcome than most countries so far. 

[cougar]

32 minutes ago, myata said:

But there's a problem still. It's that the system is outdated, to the point of archaic; inefficient; inadequate and incapable of understanding and managing a complex modern society; closed and self-absorbed; isolated; entrenched; and entitled to the point of outrageous and obscene, and third world too, to mention.

And that is a problem. History and evolution show us again and again that it can be a big problem without easy solutions. So just believing it and repeating same old over and over doesn't really solve problems, in evolution. Dinosaurs know it.

It is very entertaining.  Hi-hi-hi  ?

Edited May 4, 2022 by cougar

[myata]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Just what problems are you wanting to solve? We live in one of the most affluent societies in history. 

We have been at this no point in going in circles. Name one problem, serious or critical that has been solved in the last say, five decades. Child poverty? Clean water in remote communities, second world level? Permanent healthcare semi crisis? None of this affects management compensations that know only one direction: higher and ever higher. Regardless of state of affairs in the country and solutions to problems. This is the third world management. And this is a problem.

And understandably, bread and brioches narrative. Affluent, but of course. How much more affluent would you want to be, with a median $30K something income and 1.5-2K monthly rent? Who will understand and represent you better than $200K (coming) "employee/representative".

Edited May 4, 2022 by myata

[cougar]

1 hour ago, myata said:

We have been at this no point in going in circles. Name one problem, serious or critical that has been solved in the last say, five decades. Child poverty? Clean water in remote communities, second world level? Permanent healthcare semi crisis?

And isn't this telling you something ??????

You have a Global economy; you end up with Global problems.

Now try to understand what I wanted to explain above so we do not go around in circles.

As for the "most affluent society in history", I have to agree with you, few are the affluent and most of the middle class are quickly falling behind with inflation, rising taxes and rising real estate values.

[Queenmandy85]

The 3 issues you mention are underfunded because taxpayers do not want to pay for those issues and government can only do so much. The treasury took a huge hit with the covid crisis and coming on the back of that is the war in Europe and then the really big one which is the battle against climate change. I cannot imagine how we are going to pay for that except by borrowing from many future generations, and ironically, they are the ones who will thank us for spending their money.

As for compensation for people who work in government, you get what you pay for. If you won't pay for good people, you won't get good people.

[cougar]

4 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The 3 issues you mention are underfunded because taxpayers do not want to pay for those issues and government can only do so much.

By taxpayers you mean the rich corporations and shareholders and those hiding their money in off-shore accounts?

The rest of us who have modest to moderate incomes simply cannot pay any more tax.

 

[Queenmandy85]

4 minutes ago, cougar said:

As for the "most affluent society in history", I have to agree with you, few are the affluent and most of the middle class are quickly falling behind with inflation, rising taxes and rising real estate values.

Try sitting in the waiting room of a walk-in clinic and look around. Almost everyone will be looking done at one of the most remarkable devices in world history. With that little smart phone, you can sit waiting to see a doctor paid for by the government, and communicate instantaneously with anyone in the world. In addition, you can tap into an almost unlimited library of information. My phone cost $2200 and it was money well spent. There are those who slip between the cracks due to untreated illness, but that is not due to government. You can blame taxpayers who will not pay for the services required. 

Inflation is global and a direct result of Covid and the war. Taxes are also a result of covid and over population. Rising real estate is due to over population. 

[Queenmandy85]

10 minutes ago, cougar said:

The rest of us who have modest to moderate incomes simply cannot pay any more tax.

You've never lived in Norway, have you.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Inflation is global and a direct result of Covid and the war. Taxes are also a result of covid and over population. Rising real estate is due to over population. 

The funny thing is that these people were saying the same thing about Canada a year or two ago - exactly the same thing - when there was no inflation.  Now they say inflation is the major reason.

The other odd thing is that they don't have the organization skills or attention span to put together a proper platform to oppose the things they don't like.  They just say "I want I want I want" and ... well, this is what we get.

Anybody who doesn't think that our system doesn't result from what the various factions in society demand doesn't understand something.

[cougar]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Try sitting in the waiting room of a walk-in clinic and look around. Almost everyone will be looking done at one of the most remarkable devices in world history. With that little 1. smart phone, you can sit waiting to see a doctor paid for by the government, and communicate instantaneously with anyone in the world. In addition, you can tap into an almost unlimited library of information. My phone cost $2200 and it was money well spent.

2. There are those who slip between the cracks due to untreated illness, but that is not due to government. You can blame taxpayers who will not pay for the services required. 

3. Inflation is global and a direct result of Covid and the war. Taxes are also a result of covid and over population. Rising real estate is due to over population. 

1.  If you believe that having a smart phone makes you automatically a member of "the most affluent society" I will have to pity you for that.  Your $2,200 phone probably serves the same purpose as my free phone.  And believe it , or not, I do not ever want to have a phone.  I only have one because I am forced by my employer to carry one and I have made my employer pay for it.  Why would I want to be a dog on a leash?  Why would I want to disclose my location to anyone in the world?  Why would I want to have a device that ties me up to someone's electronic money making scheme where the inadvertent press of a button puts a charge on your credit card.  Or making a call to the wrong phone number results in heavy charges. 

I feel rich when I have my peace of mind.  I am rich when I can rely on the environment - climate, wildlife, fish, trees and where there is enough of them for me and they don't disappear or become endangered.

2.  There are many who slip between the cracks and not because they are sick.  Get your records straight

3. Yes inflation is global because as I said global economy leads to global problems and this is why I am sure myata is chasing his tail running after MP ratios.  Taxes can be related to overpopulation if you want to consider the money needed to deal with environmental disasters and mitigate climate change.  For the most part taxes will be tied to the number of working people relative to the number of non-working people - retired , sick, unemployed and the overall productivity of labor and volume of exports.

Rising real estate prices are not a result of overpopulation.  Keep in mind one should be able to make either a mortgage payment or a rent payment.  When what they pay is so high that they are left with no money for food, they cannot afford to buy any more.  It is possible the rising prices are due to two things - investors who buy a unit with their excess cash and are not interested to rent it out, just to turn around and sell it for profit in a couple of years or large families of working class people - East Indians, Chinese, who are used to live in a small space and sharing everything does not bother them.  If 10 of them live in a house, they can divide the mortgage payment in 10 and each can pay their share. 

[cougar]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You've never lived in Norway, have you.

Now what does this have to do with our discussion?

If we can't pay more tax, we can't. 

What Norwegians pay is irrelevant as you need to know their incomes and the prices in their stores and what the disposable income left is.

[cougar]

9 hours ago, myata said:

Who will understand and represent you better than $200K (coming) "employee/representative".

Total number of MP's in Canada :  443

Total MP payroll as per your $200K/MP  estimate: $88.6 million

Total government revenue in Canada in 2018/19 was $332.2 billion.

If all of it came from taxes (which it is not), this means that for every $10,000 of tax money you pay out of your pocket to CRA,    you have $2.67 / year go into the MP's pockets.

Conversely, if you want them all to work for free, this would have saved you $2.67 / year.

So you have gone to the point of insanity for buying one cup of coffee a year to those who are supposed to make your life better?

Edited May 5, 2022 by cougar

[myata]

12 hours ago, cougar said:

The rest of us who have modest to moderate incomes simply cannot pay any more tax.

You see, they are doing very important job. So important that without them (pushing buttons to the script received from High Above) all around you would definitely go down. "They think so you are" (M.Python) or very close. So you simply have to shell out. No, no other way. They know so you have to trust them!

Edited May 5, 2022 by myata

[myata]

4 hours ago, cougar said:

So you have gone to the point of insanity for buying one cup of coffee a year to those who are supposed to make your life better?

The calculation is wrong on many levels. But aside from calculation there are two important issues:

1. Yes I like to decide who I give my coffee money to, how much of it and for what.

2. The MP ratio is now above 5 (past the third world mark) and will grow further to who know what, because there's no limits. Who, how can limit a bureaucrat who decides what they should be paid, with a ladle in front of the public vault? And this a problem. And this is no democracy because governments without limits aren't compatible with democracy however decorated. And I don't want that because I read and think and I know what follows, sooner or later.

[Nationalist]

29 minutes ago, myata said:

You see, they are doing very important job. So important without them (pushing buttons to the script received from High Above) all around you would go down. "They think so you are" (M.Python) or very close. So you simply have to shell out. No, no other way. They know so you have to trust them!

I agree with most of your arguments here myata. The problem folks like cougar, Mikey and Mandy have here, is they have a vested interest in the status quo. Don't rock the boat because this abusive government works for them. Hell they'll argue till they're blue in the face that Canadians should shut up and just trust the institutions. 

I think the most comical comment I read in this exchange, was Mandy claiming politicians work hard. Lol...such silliness. I've worked for and with these "politicos" and bureaucrats and the only hard work they do is trying to screw the other guy while climbing the ladder. The only honourable folks in the mix are the military. 

I was told once I started with these people, to learn their rules and follow, or be drummed out.

And I can tell you this from my experience...the elected officials may get dirty...but the bureaucracies are a fucking mudpuddle. 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Nationalist

[myata]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

think the most comical comment I read in this exchange, was Mandy claiming politicians work hard. Lol...such silliness. I've worked for and with these "politicos" and bureaucrats and the only hard work they do is trying to screw the other guy while climbing the ladder.

Like everything, it's a matter of definition. Like how many buttons you need to push, with a $17 juice in the hand, courtesy of your taxpayer, to begin working "real hard"? And they get to decide what "working hard" means, for them. And how much "working hard" should fetch them, what, you don't get to decide your salary noooo?

Of course it could mean something else, quite different for a $30K median citizen, "most affluent" now have to believe it. Then, everything works out finely. For them. No change is necessary and why would you (them) even think of that?!

[ExFlyer]

13 hours ago, cougar said:

By taxpayers you mean the rich corporations and shareholders and those hiding their money in off-shore accounts?

The rest of us who have modest to moderate incomes simply cannot pay any more tax.

 

I keep hearing about companies and rich people hiding money off shore. Thing is, if they can do it, so can you.

If Canada is so bad, why do so many foreigners invest in Canada? To the point we are looking at legislation to curtail it?

In every election since I could vote (a long time LOL) every single party and politician has said they were going to cut taxes. Be it federal, provincial or municipal, none have ever kept that promise so, I think and so do politicians, we can pay more tax.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

....

I think the most comical comment I read ...

.......

And I can tell you this from my experience...the elected officials may get dirty...but the bureaucracies are a fucking mudpuddle. 

 

I certainly agree with this. I have worked in and around the government departmental bureaucracy.

What I learned it is often not the actual politician bit his staff of green meanies. The ones they surround themselves with. These minions are often young staffers that believe they have "the power'. Unfortunately, the public servants are beholding to them for whatever they ask because they ask on behalf ot h e employer which is that politician..

The mudpuddle is more a tar pit because the rules and regulations they workers have to abide by in the chase of transparency gets bigger and bigger daily. There are lots of complaints about procurement and wastes of money. Look up Supply Manual in Canada and try to get your head around the thousands of pages of rules, and that is even before negotiators get to make more stipulations in the actual procurement contract. Point is the poor worker is bound by intense and idiotic rules to satisfy transparency and political will in all areas (of all parties because every newly elected party pisses on procedures like a dog on a hydrant to mark their territory)

[myata]

Useless, overpriced to the point of obscene ridiculousness overhead at that pompously dreaming itself the top of the world and the origin of all things. I'm torn between laughing and sadness because this is what our money are going to and for, and more of it, year on year, with "automatic annual rises". Disgusting. Unfit for the evolution.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

 Point is the poor worker is bound by intense and idiotic rules to satisfy transparency and political will in all areas (of all parties because every newly elected party pisses on procedures like a dog on a hydrant to mark their territory)

I too have worked in government, and although the criticisms of it are often misguided or simple - the basic fact is that the machinery of government is not always attuned to what "the" public wants.  

That needs to be fixed IMO.

[myata]

Name one great democracy in this (21st) century that doesn't have a high-speed train (one). No, not Vietnam sorry. But not to worry, important is that our MPs get their $186K (that's bare minimum btw, for the lazies - for the calculation) and another annual rise is coming. A total, accomplished disconnect. No, not good for the evolution.

Edited May 5, 2022 by myata

[ExFlyer]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I too have worked in government, and although the criticisms of it are often misguided or simple - the basic fact is that the machinery of government is not always attuned to what "the" public wants.  

That needs to be fixed IMO.

My experience is that the machinery is constantly being "tuned "to what the public wants, that is why the Supply Manual alone is tens of thousands of pages and other process manuals for other departments are also voluminous.

The constant 'fixing" created ominous and often unworkable processes.