Time to Declare Endemic

[myata]

Do compare numbers in Romania (lowest vaccination in Europe) and Quebec and Ontario. This is not significant statistics but someone should at least be looking at this before they line pueblo up for the 25th booster.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Nice try Bud, but you should have noticed I follow Florida stats. You're not so much outright lying as misleading but when it's all added up it's a lie.

Those are total deaths for the duration of covid. The Delta Variant hit Florida hard in the first stages. Some say it's because of Biden's open border policies. Texas got it too.

But with Florida the Republican Governor introduced a new policy at the peak of the Delta scourge. He opened centers that made monoclonal antibodies available to all Floridians. Deaths plummeted immediately. Even before they decreased anywhere else.

Even today with the nationwide spike in cases from Omicron deaths remain low. The fatality rate was 2nd lowest in America behind Alaska a week or so ago. This is in spite of the Biden administration doing everything it can to control Florida's access to MCAs.

Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

Hey a Beautiful Mind map! You've been taking lessons from Waste Can Man.
 

Florida's population

Florida's Covid deaths

Canada's population

Canada's Covid deaths

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

It's going to take more than lies and insults to convince people they didn't notice all the expert pronouncements that turned out to be BS - flatten the curve, wear a mask and you're safe, we'll lockdown and save you all, we have a vaccine, Did we say one shot? We meant two. Did we say 2? We meant 2 and a booster. No, we meant boosters forever.

Where on Earth does this sense that everything about COVID was always obvious within days of our becoming aware of it?  Partisan hindsight has a lot to do with it I bet - unless you subscribe to the notion it's all just a big unfolding conspiracy. 

I'm reminded of how conservatives like to roll their eyes when laughing at lefties for their expectations of government.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Where on Earth does this sense that everything about COVID was always obvious within days of our becoming aware of it?  Partisan hindsight has a lot to do with it I bet - unless you subscribe to the notion it's all just a big unfolding conspiracy. 

I'm reminded of how conservatives like to roll their eyes when laughing at lefties for their expectations of government.

You’re so concerned about whether or not what’s happening is being framed as a conspiracy.  It doesn’t matter.  The facts are that our rights and freedoms are being compromised on a massive scale to fight a disease that presents as a mild illness in the vast majority of people, when we also have a tremendous array of protections available to individuals.  Personal discretion counts for nothing anymore.  There is no viable choice except to obey the restrictions and vaccine mandates and hope that eventually the government will let more freedoms and opening up resume.  It’s insane.  

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re so concerned about whether or not what’s happening is being framed as a conspiracy.  It doesn’t matter.

It matters very much that so many people believe this is a conspiracy - the extent of the sheer stupidity that's required is an even greater threat than COVID to the well-being of society.

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...our rights and freedoms are being compromised on a massive scale...

I'm quite certain just about everyone of us has bad-mouthed our government these last few years.  Do you know anyone who's been disappeared? 

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Personal discretion counts for nothing anymore.

Actually, personal discretion is all we have.

Quote

There is no viable choice except to obey the restrictions and vaccine mandates and hope that eventually the government will let more freedoms and opening up resume.  It’s insane.

It must really suck believing that.

[Infidel Dog]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Where on Earth does this sense that everything about COVID was always obvious within days of our becoming aware of it? 

Well if you didn't know flattening the curve wasn't going slow or stop anything why talk like it would at the time. I remember watching a twitter video of this guy ranting a warning that it was only going to get worse and there were going to be more and more restrictions with no actual results.

So that was one of the many things we knew was coming. Why didn't you?

Come to think about it, I also heard about variants that would transmit through what you were calling a vaccine long before it happened. 

I heard it predicted that what you were calling your "vaccine" would wane in efficacy and there would be a continuous need for boosters long before you were ever allowed to hear the term "booster."

So like I said. We keep being right and you guys keep being wrong. So why should we listen to you?

[Infidel Dog]

And you got the wrong C word for what you're calling a lot of this stuff. It's not "conspiracy."

The C word you're looking for is "correct."

 

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

Well if you didn't know flattening the curve wasn't going slow or stop anything why talk like it would at the time.

Funny how we remember things differently.  We did know flattening the curve would slow things, at the time so that's we did it and it worked, for a time, where I live it seemed to at least.  We were actually held up as a success story when wall to wall graves were being prepared in other areas.

I don't recall anyone saying that would be the end of it though.

Quote

 

I remember watching a twitter video of this guy ranting a warning that it was only going to get worse and there were going to be more and more restrictions with no actual results.

So that was one of the many things we knew was coming. Why didn't you?

 

I remember the end of the world talk too but I was trying to listen to what experts were saying about washing our hands, wearing masks and social distancing while we developed a vaccine which would take us anywhere from 18 months with luck, to a more likely 5 years.  There was also talk about hoping covid would mutate into something less dangerous.

Quote

 

Come to think about it, I also heard about variants that would transmit through what you were calling a vaccine long before it happened.

 

Where in the National Enquirer or Mad Magazine?

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I heard it predicted that what you were calling your "vaccine" would wane in efficacy and there would be a continuous need for boosters long before you were ever allowed to hear the term "booster."

So like the vaccines I get for the flu every year?  Oh the humanity!

Quote

So like I said. We keep being right and you guys keep being wrong. So why should we listen to you?

Partly because you have it all bassacwards but mostly because you say things like I was never allowed to hear the word booster.

The sheer scope of delusion you people labour under is staggering.  I'd normally ask how you manage to get out of bed everyday but with all those commies hiding under it perhaps it's better to ask how you manage to go to bed every night.

Edited January 15, 2022 by eyeball

[Zeitgeist]

Eyeball you’re desperately naive.  I don’t question that there were reasons for serious measures as we waited for a vaccine to fight the first Covid-19 variants and the Delta given the information available to the public.  That’s not what we’re discussing.

We have vaccines and 90% of our adult population is fully vaccinated. 80% of all ages who are eligible for vaccination are vaccinated.  Most virologists have said all the way along that kids are naturally quite resistant to the virus, yet half of our 5-12 population is already fully vaccinated.   Now 95% of Covid cases are of a milder variant, Omicron, yet most of us are getting the prescribed boosters.  Nevertheless, here we are in Canada under lockdowns that look almost identical to our pre-vaccination lockdowns.  It’s madness.

Our ICU’s aren’t full but we have staffing shortages everywhere that have little to do with serious illness and a lot to to with making people with mild or no symptoms and their contacts stay home because they’re found to be positive after mass testing campaigns.  I thought we were worried about Covid because of its capacity to kill or make people seriously ill.

We have lost the plot and are now making a mess of our freedoms, economy, and mental health to fight a virus with flu-like impacts in a mostly vaccinated population with indefinite restrictions.

You clearly don’t have to work or try to staff in this mess every day.  I can only assume you don’t have kids or don’t care about them losing a normal life to keep a small group of people safe who have many tools available to protect themselves.

Of course in this context people are crying conspiracy, because intelligent people can see no rational reason fo maintain this approach, not when there are jurisdictions that have fully opened up, removed restrictions, focused on providing the best treatments, and they have a lower death rate than we do!

Before the vaccines I do think there was a case to be made for our restrictive approach, at least temporarily. That approach is now preventing us from exiting restrictions to fight a milder virus that won’t go away.

I have to wear more PPE now than I did before I was vaccinated.  Why are we doing this to ourselves?  More boxes of PPE and test kits are mindlessly delivered at immense cost to taxpayers. It’s inexplicable, which is why it’s rational for many people to wonder if a bigger plan is afoot that is really about asserting greater control over the public.  There are many precedents for this, which is why we see vaccine hesitancy among a small minority of holdouts.  Now these people are being made the scapegoat punching bags because of our inability to add some ICU beds and provide effective treatments that are readily available in the marketplace to treat seriously ill people.  These are easy alternative choices to make.

It’s Canada’s strange commitment to this dated approach that is turning us into an obsessive compulsive society of dysfunctional neurotics who can’t handle acceptable risks.  More screening, masks, testing, lockdowns, boosters, ad infinitum.  Oh and guess what, Covid persists.  End this stupidity. Remove all restrictions, testing, and screening immediately.  Hospitals focus on treating serious illness.  If you’re sick stay home until you’re better, as you did pre-pandemic.   That’s it!

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Infidel Dog]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Funny how we remember things differently.  We did know flattening the curve would slow things, at the time so that's we did it and it worked, for a time, where I live it seemed to at least.  We were actually held up as a success story when wall to wall graves were being prepared in other areas.

The curve always flattens. With or without lockdowns and mask mandates.

Not sure where you're from but the science tells us there's lots of places that don't align with your covid lockdown, curve-flattening utopia:

Lockdowns Do Not Control the Coronavirus: The Evidence

Stanford study: Lockdowns have no clear benefit

German Study Finds Lockdown ‘Had No Effect’ on Stopping Spread of Coronavirus

Quote

I don't recall anyone saying that would be the end of it though.

Would you like to hear somebody tell you waving mask in hand that his mandates and lockdowns would end it? Here ya go...you'll have to make it to the end of a rather obnoxious rant though.

"I will end this," Biden says of pandemic | Second Presidential Debate 2020

 

[Infidel Dog]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

Hey a Beautiful Mind map! You've been taking lessons from Waste Can Man.
 

Florida's population

Florida's Covid deaths

Canada's population

Canada's Covid deaths

Not sure what you think that proves.

Japan with a population 4.1 times that of Canada hasn't had more than 5 daily deaths since November. Does that mean Canada needs to make Ivermectin more easily accessible? Like they do in Japan.

Doesn't matter. Deaths in Florida still plummeted from its peak in late August after DeSantis brought in Monoclonal antibody centers and that was the point.

Although...and I'll give you this. It does look like the daily deaths have been dipping up the last 2 days. If we can believe that Google map. That map has some strange incongruencies though and doesn't match with the more widely accepted Worldometer.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[blackbird]

How could the pandemic be viewed as ended when the health care system is overloaded with Covid patients, short thousands of health care workers, and cancer and heart patients and others are being denied treatment?  Guess if you don't expect to need health care you might think everyone can get back to normal, but we should think of our neighbours and those who urgently need health care now and whose lives may be threatened as many are and have already died waiting.

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

How could the pandemic be viewed as ended when the health care system is overloaded with Covid patients, short thousands of health care workers, and cancer and heart patients and others are being denied treatment?  Guess if you don't expect to need health care you might think everyone can get back to normal, but we should think of our neighbours and those who urgently need health care now and whose lives may be threatened as many are and have already died waiting.

There’s no crisis.  Postponing surgeries and making kids learn from home were choices.  There was briefly a Code Orange at Osler Hospital and for 5 minutes there was a pause on available ambulances in Toronto.  Those two events recirculated ad nauseum in the media.  We can’t just throw society into a tailspin and lock down every time a negative media report occurs.  The only learning for me this past few weeks is how impressionable people are and how little flexibility our healthcare system has.  It doesn’t seem to be able to pivot. I also can’t believe the billions we’re spending on PPE and test kits.  We seem unable to accept minor illness if it’s called Covid.  We have to stop worrying about getting Covid and start worrying about treating serious illness.  Restrictions are a costly distraction.  Covid cases are a distraction.  Screening and testing are causing healthy people to stay home from work. It should be about treating very sick people.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Infidel Dog]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

How could the pandemic be viewed as ended 

I don't know...ask Joe Biden. He was the one who said he'd end it in the 2020 debate.

But as to the recent Omicron wave that one is vastly over hyped  by the media and politicos. 

It is spreading rapidly but it is much less dangerous than previous Covids.

Hospitalizations may be increasing but they're much shorter than Delta. Most are quick stays for observation, I'll wager. 

There is a hope though that mass infections with fewer casualties will increase the possibility of herd immunity. Could that stop it? Dunno. Be nice if it could though. There's a good possibility it will be thought of more as endemic in the future than a pandemic. Like the flu. Like the OP suggests.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Infidel Dog

[myata]

A serious discussion of an endemic exit from Covid. Not CBC (obviously).

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Eyeball you’re desperately naive.  I don’t question that there were reasons for serious measures as we waited for a vaccine to fight the first Covid-19 variants and the Delta given the information available to the public. That’s not what we’re discussing.

We have vaccines and 90% of our adult population is fully vaccinated. 80% of all ages who are eligible for vaccination are vaccinated.  Most virologists have said all the way along that kids are naturally quite resistant to the virus, yet half of our 5-12 population is already fully vaccinated.   Now 95% of Covid cases are of a milder variant, Omicron, yet most of us are getting the prescribed boosters.  Nevertheless, here we are in Canada under lockdowns that look almost identical to our pre-vaccination lockdowns.  It’s madness.

It's maddening alright but what's insane is the way too many people are overreacting to that. That's what I'm discussing.

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Our ICU’s aren’t full but we have staffing shortages everywhere that have little to do with serious illness and a lot to to with making people with mild or no symptoms and their contacts stay home because they’re found to be positive after mass testing campaigns.  I thought we were worried about Covid because of its capacity to kill or make people seriously ill.

That and to also prevent overloading and swamping our health system and other critical services.

Quote

We have lost the plot and are now making a mess of our freedoms, economy, and mental health to fight a virus with flu-like impacts in a mostly vaccinated population with indefinite restrictions.

You clearly don’t have to work or try to staff in this mess every day.  I can only assume you don’t have kids or don’t care about them losing a normal life to keep a small group of people safe who have many tools available to protect themselves.

I have 4 grandkids. They're all doing fine, schooling at home and literally thriving. One is the child of a son who was an anti-vaxxer long before COVID and still is. We have vulnerable populations here, my wife and I are also vulnerable and we've both required hospitalization and surgery during the pandemic. We've had to exercise at least as many and maybe more measures and precautions as anyone else.  Yes I'm well aware of the mental health concerns and I think they're overblown by people overblowing fears about freedoms.  As for the economy, it and us are all in the same boat. Everyone has borrowed to the hilt so unless we owe it to aliens that are demanding payment or else I'm quite certain we could cut a deal with ourselves to try and mitigate the hits the economy has taken.

Quote

Of course in this context people are crying conspiracy, because intelligent people can see no rational reason fo maintain this approach, not when there are jurisdictions that have fully opened up, removed restrictions, focused on providing the best treatments, and they have a lower death rate than we do!

Before the vaccines I do think there was a case to be made for our restrictive approach, at least temporarily. That approach is now preventing us from exiting restrictions to fight a milder virus that won’t go away.

Huge numbers of people had been crying conspiracy for years before this pandemic hit. COVID was simply gasoline for a fire that started long ago and panic-entrepreneurs, especially politicized one's,. have been making out like bandits ever since.

Quote

I have to wear more PPE now than I did before I was vaccinated.  Why are we doing this to ourselves?  More boxes of PPE and test kits are mindlessly delivered at immense cost to taxpayers. It’s inexplicable, which is why it’s rational for many people to wonder if a bigger plan is afoot that is really about asserting greater control over the public.  There are many precedents for this, which is why we see vaccine hesitancy among a small minority of holdouts.  Now these people are being made the scapegoat punching bags because of our inability to add some ICU beds and provide effective treatments that are readily available in the marketplace to treat seriously ill people.  These are easy alternative choices to make.

People are simply not thinking straight.  You don't see anything irrational at all in your description of the government as being mindless and without ability while also believing its capable of formulating and executing some master plan to control the public?  People must think governments are merely putting on a show of incompetence to mask their brilliance.

Quote

It’s Canada’s strange commitment to this dated approach that is turning us into an obsessive compulsive society of dysfunctional neurotics who can’t handle acceptable risks.  More screening, masks, testing, lockdowns, boosters, ad infinitum.  Oh and guess what, Covid persists.  End this stupidity. Remove all restrictions, testing, and screening immediately.  Hospitals focus on treating serious illness.  If you’re sick stay home until you’re better, as you did pre-pandemic.   That’s it!

I'll concede the point that governments can be their own worst enemies when it comes to communicating to the public. The public wants some kind of certainty and governments want to provide it. This sets everyone up for disappointment and frustration and in the absence of perspective caused by stoking and indulging in fearful conspiratorial thinking its no wonder things are such a mess.

In addition to all the other advise the public has been given I would have added above all else to get a grip and try to think a little more critically about what's happening and especially your own reaction!

That said you might want to find someone who can say that a little more politely but, that's it!

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Not sure where you're from but the science tells us there's lots of places that don't align with your covid lockdown, curve-flattening utopia:

Lockdowns Do Not Control the Coronavirus: The Evidence

You need to find better sources of information. 

Quote

Overall, we rate Summit News Questionable based on Extreme Right-wing bias, promotion of conspiracies, misleading and unproven stories, and a complete lack of transparency.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=Summit+News

I'm quite confidently assuming your other sources of information are just as useless.

 

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

Not sure what you think that proves.

That Canada has weathered the pandemic much better than Florida.

[Zeitgeist]

49 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That Canada has weathered the pandemic much better than Florida.

That statement illustrates your lack of analysis and nuance.  Prior to vaccination and Florida’s cutting edge treatments, its unrestricted approach in a population with a large percentage of elderly hurt Florida.

Since vaccines rolled out and the state focused on providing the best treatments, its death rate has fallen dramatically and people are living free, unrestricted lives without having to resort to mandates and persecution campaigns against the unvaccinated.

Florida is the model we should be following now.  They are managing the pandemic such that serious illnesses are well treated and life has returned to normal.   Vulnerable people can and do take additional precautions, as they can and should do here.  Florida is a free state that respects personal discretion, while Canadians live in a kind of semi-imprisonment with no clear exit.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

That Canada has weathered the pandemic

Note the accomplished tense. Does he know something about the crisis and lockdown following the discovery of the next and scariest yet zedhorror variant?

What is the meaning of "better"? Some countries never had a lockdown, not in this sense. Others are living normal lives for close to a year, without jumping on every hiccup, waving hands, crying and restrictions. Does that factor in "better"? Or rather, the notion of better depends on who it is better for? If this kind of life is "better" then what does or should it tell us, about us?

Edited January 15, 2022 by myata

[Goddess]

16 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Most virologists have said all the way along that kids are naturally quite resistant to the virus, yet half of our 5-12 population is already fully vaccinated.

That is not stopping Pfizer.  

https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/17/pfizer-testing-extra-covid-vaccine-dose-for-kids-under-5/?fbclid=IwAR0qVbwTw4Zl_5I6r5RiKUcZfhUnnf4mA4HnhOlabCMEuVB-ORa7g5-fXA8

Quote

 

Pfizer said Friday it was changing plans and testing three doses of its Covid-19 vaccine in babies and preschoolers instead of the usual two.

The addition of an extra dose came after a preliminary analysis found 2- to 4-year-olds didn’t have as strong an immune response as expected to special low-dose shots.

 

Since children's chance catching, spreading, transmitting or dying of covid is statistically zero already, I'm not sure what baseline of "protection' they are going for here.

Babies and pre-schoolers - 3 jabs with an experimental inoculation with no long-term studies......what could go wrong? ?

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That is not stopping Pfizer.  

https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/17/pfizer-testing-extra-covid-vaccine-dose-for-kids-under-5/?fbclid=IwAR0qVbwTw4Zl_5I6r5RiKUcZfhUnnf4mA4HnhOlabCMEuVB-ORa7g5-fXA8

Since children's chance catching, spreading, transmitting or dying of covid is statistically zero already, I'm not sure what baseline of "protection' they are going for here.

Babies and pre-schoolers - 3 jabs with an experimental inoculation with no long-term studies......what could go wrong? ?

Yup if Covid vaccines become mandated for young children, you know our governments are fully owned by the pharmaceuticals.

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup if Covid vaccines become mandated for young children, you know our governments are fully owned by the pharmaceuticals.

I'm hoping something comes of the case going before the ICC in the next few weeks.

It's going to be held in "Grand Jury" style, and they are going to make the evidence presented public.

[Infidel Dog]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

That Canada has weathered the pandemic much better than Florida.

And Japan is doing better than Canada - much better - and Florida is doing better by fatality rate than every other state with the exception of Alaska. So again what does all that prove. I told you what the plummeting death rate at the height of Delta meant in regards to Florida. It meant they made the right decision.

Show me the superior decisions you figure Canada made as a nation over those made by the United States.

[eyeball]

17 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

And Japan is doing better than Canada - much better - and Florida is doing better by fatality rate than every other state with the exception of Alaska. So again what does all that prove. I told you what the plummeting death rate at the height of Delta meant in regards to Florida. It meant they made the right decision.

Show me the superior decisions you figure Canada made as a nation over those made by the United States.

Canadians exercised more patience, we're more willing to listen to the advice of experts and more trusting of our governments. This made us less prone to the all to obvious deadly effects of misinformation, fake news and conspiracy loaded thinking.  Japanese people are even more inclined that way.
 

Quote

 

Conclusions: High trust in government was associated with a higher intensity of practicing COVID-19 preventive measures among Japanese individuals at the national level. Our findings may provide useful information to develop and design effective public health interventions.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34159544/