Death by Medical Mistake is the third largest cause of death in Canadian Health Care System.

[CITIZEN_2015]

In the last year alone over 35000 Canadians were killed due to medical errors in Canada. This figure is double the number who died of Covid past year.

Death by medical mistake is the third largest cause of death in Canada after cancer and heart attacks.

A powerful tax-payer funded organization by the name of CMPA (Canadian Medical Protective Association) with highly paid money hungry lawyers are defending doctors' reputations who make all those errors and keep them at their jobs to likely cause more errors and deaths. Also as a result no compensation is paid in most cases to the family of victims who as tax payers and are paying the bill for those corrupt lawyers defending the rich and powerful. 

Shame on Canada and its sickening Public only Health Care system killing the most vulnerable being the old and sick population and those lawyers living on blood money and who defend the rich and powerful against the weak and defenseless .

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Army Guy]

And yet these health care professionals are who rely upon to make critical medical decisions on Covid 19. or for that matter anything related to health care really...

[myata]

What about salaries of top management, in proportion to the median income in the country? Are they by any chance, among the highest in the developed world too? What a funny coincidence.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The sad part is that governments may be fully aware of the disastrous Health care system in Canada but reluctant to do anything about it. Maybe they want to get rid of what they see as surplus population. 

Wake up nation. These are our parents and grandparent and these will be us ourselves in not so distant future. We need Private Health care system in Canada alongside publicly funded system. Private hospitals will be more careful on who they hire as doctors and nurses and they will be held responsible for mistakes and answerable to paying patients but the public Health care don't feel responsible or answerable because it is free service and hence 35000 defenseless, most vulnerable people are killed by our doctors and nurses every year.

[myata]

You have to find one thing that is not subpar here first. Down the street they are building a 30 meter long concrete wall. It's been three months and the completion is nowhere in sight. And looks like nobody thought there would be a December.

A privatization in this environment would be a double disaster; without tradition and practice of excellence you will get the same service (but maybe a fancy reception) for an outrageous price (think Big Telcos). Honestly I don't know what is a better solution here, to keep grossly inefficient slowly deteriorating system or get rid of it and have nothing in its place. And in the latter case we couldn't even hope to save on the taxes because the wise bureaucracy will always find how to use them for our own good.

Edited December 6, 2021 by myata

[cannuck]

This is a wild oversimplification of the situation.   First of all, why would you assume that some kind of privatization would make any difference to the frequency or severity of "medical mistakes"??   Secondly: people who do things make mistakes.  All day, every day, every profession, trade and category of labour, people make mistakes.  Finally: we don't have to wonder how privatized medicine works, we can just look straight South and see that such a system costs more that twice as much $$$$ as what we have and delivers outcomes far down the scale from what we get.

You need to separate out what function is what function, who can best do those functions and finally what factors keep them from working as intended and remove those "problem" components.  To begin with: medical doctors do NOT deliver much in the line of "health care", they mostly provide "sick care".  to understand this: as with anything else, follow the gold.  There is very little money in medicine until someone gets sick or injured.  The drug business is a perfect example of how and why sick care is done the we it is - it is how the big bux flow into the picture.  To my mind: the best way to make GPs switch from pill pushers for Big Pharma into health care providers is assign each one "X" patients and pay them for the ones who are healthy and alive.  This was once done in China (so I was told when we worked out of a medical university campus in Guangzhou).

What needs to be publicly funded is just that: HEALTH care.  Moving some of the resources from sick care to health care would be critical to delivery.  What needs to be 100% publicly funded is the insurance side (funding) as it more-or-less is now in Canada.  What can be (and to some extent already is here) privately owned is service delivery.  BUT: look at what happens in the US when you do that with Big Legal, Big Insurance and Big Pharma having carte blanche to exploit the system.  Most of US sick care costs are based on the insurance component of the LLL (Legal Liability Lottery).

One of the very few economic advantages we have in Canadian business over our Southern competing neighbours is our sick care system.  It is far from perfect, but it allows business a free hand to be business instead of wasting billions (here) and TRILLIONS (in the US) on an army of blood sucking lawyers, insurers, administrators, risk managers, etc.  We just need to tweek our delivery schemes to be more cost and medically effective.

The idea that you can wave a magic wand and take the risk out of making split second decisions in care delivery of people in highly compromised and critical situations is ludicrous.   

[CITIZEN_2015]

I have seen it with my own eyes as it happened to my closest relatives how uncaring and negligent the nurses and doctors are in hospital ward and even ICU. My own closest relatives passes away before my eyes, one under surgical error the other due to inaction and delays in urgent action by hospital ward of team of doctors and uncaring nurses only there for pay cheques. 

Shame on Canada and its sickening public only Health Care System

[CITIZEN_2015]

Private Health Care alongside existing Public care. Those who wish and afford pay for their health care in privately own hospitals and clinics and test centers and the existing public fund remains for those we can't afford or choose public care. More doctors and nurses become available and earlier tests for everyone Competition among private health organization would bring better care and health care professionals become answerable to  patients in private care because they are paid by patients to be answerable and responsible.

[CITIZEN_2015]

23 minutes ago, cannuck said:

This is a wild oversimplification of the situation.   First of all, why would you assume that some kind of privatization would make any difference to the frequency or severity of "medical mistakes"??   Secondly: people who do things make mistakes.  All day, every day, every profession, trade and category of labour, people make mistakes.  Finally: we don't have to wonder how privatized medicine works, we can just look straight South and see that such a system costs more that twice as much $$$$ as what we have and delivers outcomes far down the scale from what we get.

You need to separate out what function is what function, who can best do those functions and finally what factors keep them from working as intended and remove those "problem" components.  To begin with: medical doctors do NOT deliver much in the line of "health care", they mostly provide "sick care".  to understand this: as with anything else, follow the gold.  There is very little money in medicine until someone gets sick or injured.  The drug business is a perfect example of how and why sick care is done the we it is - it is how the big bux flow into the picture.  To my mind: the best way to make GPs switch from pill pushers for Big Pharma into health care providers is assign each one "X" patients and pay them for the ones who are healthy and alive.  This was once done in China (so I was told when we worked out of a medical university campus in Guangzhou).

What needs to be publicly funded is just that: HEALTH care.  Moving some of the resources from sick care to health care would be critical to delivery.  What needs to be 100% publicly funded is the insurance side (funding) as it more-or-less is now in Canada.  What can be (and to some extent already is here) privately owned is service delivery.  BUT: look at what happens in the US when you do that with Big Legal, Big Insurance and Big Pharma having carte blanche to exploit the system.  Most of US sick care costs are based on the insurance component of the LLL (Legal Liability Lottery).

One of the very few economic advantages we have in Canadian business over our Southern competing neighbours is our sick care system.  It is far from perfect, but it allows business a free hand to be business instead of wasting billions (here) and TRILLIONS (in the US) on an army of blood sucking lawyers, insurers, administrators, risk managers, etc.  We just need to tweek our delivery schemes to be more cost and medically effective.

The idea that you can wave a magic wand and take the risk out of making split second decisions in care delivery of people in highly compromised and critical situations is ludicrous.   

I am not arguing  but what is your solution to the fact that each year 35000 Canadians die because of errors or mistakes by our doctors in our hospitals? and that figure does not include negligence. Do you simply accept to see half a million Canadians die by our incompetent or overloaded health care professionals by end of the decade? These are our parents and grandparents. These will be us.

Edited December 6, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Faramir]

Here's the problem.  There is no legal recourse.  I have a former colleague who baby delivery was messed up and the baby died.  A lawyer told him he might get $15,000 pain and suffering but that was about it as far as recourse.

[Aristides]

The statistic is the same in the litigation happy US where malpractice insurance can cost up to 200K a year depending on the specialty and location.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

Edited December 6, 2021 by Aristides

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, Faramir said:

Here's the problem.  There is no legal recourse.  I have a former colleague who baby delivery was messed up and the baby died.  A lawyer told him he might get $15,000 pain and suffering but that was about it as far as recourse.

No especially with the powerful CMPA with a resource of 5 billion dollars funded by tax payer (the families of dead patients) hiring highly paid corrupt lawyers living on blood money defending the doctors at fault saving their reputations.

Edited December 6, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Faramir]

20 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

No especially with the powerful CMPA with a resource of 5 billion dollars funded by tax payer (the families of dead patients) hiring highly paid corrupt lawyers living on blood money defending the doctors at fault saving their reputations.

True.  I'm not saying I like American way either.  In the USA it goes to the other extreme where doctors are sued all the time for millions of dollars.  America needs legal reform.

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Faramir said:

True.  I'm not saying I like American way either.  In the USA it goes to the other extreme where doctors are sued all the time for millions of dollars.  America needs legal reform.

Either way, the mistake rate is the same.

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 hours ago, Aristides said:

Either way, the mistake rate is the same.

Please don't just claim something without proof. Evidence that 350,000 Americans die by doctors' mistake every year.

[cannuck]

21 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I am not arguing  but what is your solution to the fact that each year 35000 Canadians die because of errors or mistakes by our doctors in our hospitals? and that figure does not include negligence. Do you simply accept to see half a million Canadians die by our incompetent or overloaded health care professionals by end of the decade? These are our parents and grandparents. These will be us.

My Father died on his 50th birthday from medical incompetence and we got to bury him on Christmas Eve, so I genuinely understand your feelings.  However, bankrupting the country and tens of thousands of Canadians a year by introducing US style sick care is exactly the wrong thing to do, and will solve nothing.  Maybe you should look into WHY medical professionals feel so disconnected as to become error prone and seemingly uncaring.  I also agree with your efforts to point out the error rate and consequences.  Punishment IMHO is not the solution, but making it a public issue should help.

I have a number of very close friends who are MDs, DVMs or specialists in a number of countries, and I can tell the one thing they have in common is EXTREME efforts to be good at their job and they are literally the most compassionate individuals I have ever known.  One actually builds and operates hospitals over a 10 year period and GIVES them to their host countries.  Another (pediatric surgeon) even designs and builds his own surgical tools as the world doesn't exactly cater to the highly specialized small size equipment required.  I also see another peds guy study and develop a procedure for WEEKS before putting together the team and equipment for difficult operations.

These are not slap-happy "git-er done" cowboys, but I also listen to my daughter (veterinary emerg and trauma) about how quickly she has to make life-and-death decisions when presented with a case.   I wish is was a simple as just get government (the den of total incompetence) to "change things" but the problem is far more complicated and needs the profession fully involved and committed to fixing the problems to make it work.

Don't give up the fight, but please try to understand and seek a realistic and workable solution.

Edited December 7, 2021 by cannuck

[myata]

It's like a train with broken brakes on a downhill slope. Sure we can put a bandaid here and there and pray for the best but the result will be same, I'm afraid. And already visible on the horizon, thanks to the virus. And of course, healthcare is only one facet.

[OftenWrong]

On 12/4/2021 at 1:14 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

We need Private Health care system in Canada alongside publicly funded system.

I don't see what that has to do with medical incompetence, as in "death by medical mistake".

Will the new private health care system make people more competent in their jobs? Presumably, it is just a funding system.

ergo,

non-sequitur,

non-issue,

nonsense

[Aristides]

14 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Please don't just claim something without proof. Evidence that 350,000 Americans die by doctors' mistake every year.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

[CITIZEN_2015]

6 hours ago, Aristides said:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

Thank you for the link. Your link suggesting that 250,000 death occurs in US due to medical errors which is bad enough however, the number to population shows a lower rate considering 330 million Americans live in US. The report however, does not specify how many of those death occur in Publicly funded US hospitals and how many in Private hospitals. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

This 35000 Canadians killed in hospitals are very tragic and bad enough but the actual picture is much worse. This number does not count those who died because the nurses and doctors were bunted oud could not make the right decision or take the right course of action or made hastily decisions because there were overwhelmed attending to too many patients in critical conditions.

We need to have a Private health care system for those who can afford to pay and to be treated in Privately own hospitals competing with each other resulting in better care and more and better paid doctors and nurses in long term (as is always the case with free economy - That was why Communism fell or starved economically. No free enterprise allowed and everything was public and shared)

Canadians are very backward thinking when it comes to private health care. Money can buy better homes and cars and healthier food and living conditions so why not better health care in a privately paid system?

Edited December 23, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

In every wealthy country, there are people who think their system is uniquely bad. We could be having exactly the same conversation on an Irish or British forum. So there’s really no point discussing one country in isolation and not much point comparing ourselves to the Yanks - nobody wants to copy their chaotic model. How do we rack up against peer nations, e.g. in Europe and Asia, and what criteria do they use to measure the same problem? BTW in some areas of medicine, poorer labs and hospitals have lower error rates because they don’t detect anything near all the errors.

I think Canada has a bigger challenge with healthcare access than quality. Something like 20% of the patients in my province don’t have a family practitioner (FP). Within the existing system we need better integrated care focused on need, more family practitioners, and more nurse practitioners (and other professionals) who can take the load off FPs. There’s a good argument for more private care as well. People who can afford it should be able to pay an annual fee for their FP. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by SpankyMcFarland

[Aristides]

On 12/7/2021 at 5:04 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Thank you for the link. Your link suggesting that 250,000 death occurs in US due to medical errors which is bad enough however, the number to population shows a lower rate considering 330 million Americans live in US. The report however, does not specify how many of those death occur in Publicly funded US hospitals and how many in Private hospitals. 

So? Why don't you tell us.

[Army Guy]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:52 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This 35000 Canadians killed in hospitals are very tragic and bad enough but the actual picture is much worse. This number does not count those who died because the nurses and doctors were bunted oud could not make the right decision or take the right course of action or made hastily decisions because there were overwhelmed attending to too many patients in critical conditions.

We need to have a Private health care system for those who can afford to pay and to be treated in Privately own hospitals competing with each other resulting in better care and more and better paid doctors and nurses in long term (as is always the case with free economy - That was why Communism fell or starved economically. No free enterprise allowed and everything was public and shared)

Canadians are very backward thinking when it comes to private health care. Money can buy better homes and cars and healthier food and living conditions so why not better health care in a privately paid system?

I take it you mean hospitals and not long term care homes with medical professionals, as we all know how privatization worked out there. 

Those that can afford private health care are already receiving it, think trump, gates, do they go to the local hospital. Why would you want government health care competing against private hospitals, good doctors , nurses, staff going to where the money is, and the rest going to government health care, we already have a tiered health care system where money dictates your treatment options. without medical coverage your not going to get the best medical treatment available.  

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Those that can afford private health care are already receiving it, think trump, gates, do they go to the local hospital. Why would you want government health care competing against private hospitals, good doctors , nurses, staff going to where the money is, and the rest going to government health care, we already have a tiered health care system where money dictates your treatment options. without medical coverage your not going to get the best medical treatment available.  

And why would you deny me the choice of being forced to accept one model of care delivery over another?????

What we have that IMHO we need to keep is a bit of a health care system, in which information and programmes are delivered to help us be, remain or become healthy.   That is very much in the best interest of our government, as it also provides the insurance that must pay for our ignorance of health when we are sick or when tragedy results in injury.  Government here and in many countries does a decent job of funding both health and sick care.  

Where government fails miserably is in service delivery.   What we allow only on an extremely limited basis other countries allow far more private business to deliver sick care services.   In most of Canada, you can only do that if the treatment falls outside of what has been determined to be "in scope" for our state funded and administered service delivery network.  Raising this socialist "politics of envy" and very divisive attitude that if I have been fortunate or skilled enough to have some resources available that I should be denied the ability to provide for myself and my family to the best of my ability.  That IN NO WAY denies anything to anyone else, but what you suggest would be denying ME and my family that which we SHOULD be entitled to pursue.  In fact, letting private diagnostic and treatment service delivery stand side-by-side with publicly operated service REDUCES the load causing backlogs.  In such an arrangement, ANY service provided should be paid to either the public or private delivery system at the same rate, and the private ones should be free to charge the consumer whatever premium they need to provide service as a competing business.

Edited January 9, 2022 by cannuck