Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[Boges]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

So they offer half the money and also will be banning their sale by 2035.  Yeah - not really 'supporting' the market are they.

Yes. 12 years from now and multiple car generations away.

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Not in the slightest. On average people may drive that but people need to be able to drive more when they want to - and now ALL the problems come back up. 

Good thing most modern EVs do 300 kms or more. 

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Don't have time to charge your hybrid? No problem.  don't have time to charge your ev? oooooops.

Again modern EVs can charge in under 1 hour using a fast DC Charger. 

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Can't get a charger at home for an ev? That's a big issue.  Can't get one for a hybrid? No big deal - plug into the wall and if it's not fully charged in the morning no sweat.

You can do that with EVs too. I know someone who just got a Tesla. He doesn't have a Nema 40 connection but still plugs into the wall and gets the range he's looking for. 

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A Phev eliminates the problems with full EV's. And those are serious problems. But it still delivers the vast majority of the benefits of an EV as far as environmental issues go.  And we could be adopting it everywhere tomorrow. Which means actual reductions would nose dive overall.

Yes, but it's a half measure. It does nothing to move battery tech to the point where the problems you address can be ironed out. PHEV are just glorified Hybrids. 

 

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But it doesn't virtue signal loud enough. Sooo the gov't is not interested.  Because it's not the environment that actually matters, it's the optics.

The Ontario government still issues a Green plate for PHEV. But in Europe they've realized some automakers are just adding a tiny battery to sidestep the process. 

Sales are plummeting in Europe. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136692_plug-in-hybrid-sales-stumble-in-europe-better-chance-in-the-us

 

Edited January 24, 2024 by Boges

[Boges]

The version of car I have, The Hyundai Ioniq, was available in Hybrid, PHEV and EV when I was in the market for a new car.  

I seriously considered the PHEV as it was cheaper and it would mean I didn't have to kit my garage out with an EV charger. 

But the range was still under my daily commute, so I'd still have to budget for gasoline every month. I'm perfectly happy with my EV decision. 

Hyundai has since moved the Ioniq brand to 100% EVs. 

Edited January 24, 2024 by Boges

[CdnFox]

Just now, Boges said:

Yes. 12 years from now and multiple car generations away.

 

Do you think car companies will be around 12 years from now? Do you think they might want their production facilities to be still relevant at that time, and their products established?  I think they might

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Good thing most modern EVs do 300 kms or more. 

Nope, that's a very bad thing. It means they must charge a long time to get their range.

You know how long a hybrid has to charge for to drive that far? Zero.  IF the battery is flat you just drive anyway.

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Again modern EVs can charge in under 3 hours using a fast DC Charger. 

Again - ice and hybrids can refule in under 3 minutes. Talk to me when charging times can match that.

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You can do that with EVs too. I know someone who just got a Tesla. He doesn't have a Nema 40 connection but still plugs into the wall and gets the range he's looking for. 

If the range is 20 kms or so sure, he's fine.  But what if it's more than that? You're being wilfully silly at this point.

Quote

Yes, but it's a half measure. It does nothing to move battery tech to the point where the problems you address can be ironed out. PHEV are just glorified Hybrids. 

No, it's a 90 percent measure. It gives us 90 percent of what we want for 50 percent of the price. The price doubles every 2 percent above that we try to go.

And of course it improves battery tech -you're still talking about millions of batteries a year going into cars. In fact it may well be more because you could switch to phev across the board tomorrow and sell 4 times as many as ice. So the actual number of batteries is the same.  And there would STILL be the same drive to get to full ev's some day.

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The Ontario government still issues a Green plate for PHEV. But in Europe they've realized some automakers are just adding a tiny battery to sidestep the process. 

Well there's no way to beat that at all... wait, what if there was some sort of way to pass some sort of manditory rule like a ... a...  well lets call it a 'law' for lack of a better term....

You are losing this discussion badly because you're starting with an answer and trying to work back to a question. That never works.

EVs are NOT a practical solution as a full replacement for  ice and will not be for the foreseeable future.  Hybrids would be.  Or just stick with ice if you hate the idea of hybrids so much.  But EVs are not a solution any more than steam powered cars were - they existed but they just weren't the technology needed yet.

[cannuck]

4 hours ago, Boges said:

You don't think Government subsidies go into the Oil Industry? 

Battery Tech already has the ability to supplant a good majority of anyone's personal vehicle need.

But but but, I want to drive 800 kms a day near the Arctic Circle!!!! Most people that drive cars don't. 

You also missed the part in my post where I mentioned Sodium Ion batteries. Do we have sufficient Sodium on Earth? 

I have been in the oil business for decades.   Never saw a penny from any government come into my pocket.   Gave them a crap tonne of cash, though.

You need to understand just how big the world's transportation requirements and infrastructure are.   As I said: not enough Lithium to put a tiny dent in it.

Sorry, I did miss you sodium post, but as with any other technology not there yet (at the scale and energy density required for portable/vehicle energy storage).   I have the incredible good luck to visit with some battery scientists busy developing aluminum (and I believe sodium) tech that has fantastic promise - but as with everything else in the battery world, no where near ready for prime time.

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, Boges said:

But the range was still under my daily commute, so I'd still have to budget for gasoline every month. I'm perfectly happy with my EV decision.

A) - it was not under your daily commute - that's the point. Sure the battery portion might have been but you could still do your daily commute even if you forgot to charge at all. That is a MAJOR advantage.

B  you woudln't have to budget much for gas i bet. Unless your work is a hell of a long way away i bet your fuel bill would have been in half or more. When you look at the extra cost of the EV especially without any rebates - i bet your paying the same amount either way.

But hey - if it made sense in your specific circusmtances great. There will be a niche for which full Phev is better

But that is a small niche - we can't replace ice with ev.  We COULD replace ice with Phev.  IF the goal is to burn less gas for environmental and practical reasons then that would have been the smart solution.

[herbie]

7 hours ago, Boges said:

Hyundai has since moved the Ioniq brand to 100% EVs

Friend has the same car for over a year. Lives in Cloverdale and does sales routes from Hope to Vancouver. He's very happy with it.
Another with a Tesla does tech stuff out of Williams Lake from Prince George to Kamloops. Obviously overnights on a service call, always did, just has to plug in overnight.

Both trying to talk me into one, but it's 200 km just to Costco-WalMart-Superstore, a specialist or the nearest relative and I can only write off meals and motels for medical... PHEV makes more sense. Could put 220 in the carport but other PHEV owners here did just fie with 110V even in the cold snap. They're eating, watching Netflix or sleeping for over 12 hours after work anyway.

[CdnFox]

https://tnc.news/2024/01/28/saskatchewan-electric-vehicles-unreliable/

Saskatchewan concludes electric vehicles unreliable, not worth risk

A review by the northern Saskatchewan town of La Ronge concluded that adopting electric vehicles for municipal use didn’t make sense and posed too many risks, especially when it comes to emergency use. 

The review comes as the federal government proposes to phase out the sale of new fuel vehicles by 2035. 

La Ronge’s review indicates that the unpredictable nature of emergency responses could clash with the recharging needs of electric vehicles. The report concluded that, overall, EVs do not align with the demands of emergencies.

 

Now - that's municipal use specifically, but it does show that EV's are not yet ready to take over from ICE

[Boges]

Wow all 12 people in Northern Saskatchewan aren't adopting EVs yet. What a setback for the industry. 

[CdnFox]

Just now, Boges said:

Wow all 12 people in Northern Saskatchewan aren't adopting EVs yet. What a setback for the industry. 

Oh - sorry i forgot you're in ontario and think nothing outside of your own province matters in the slightest.

What an ass.  This is a good example of why nobody trusts leftist on the issue.  "We have legitimate concerns".  "So? You're not from Ontario so eff off".

[Boges]

6 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Oh - sorry i forgot you're in ontario and think nothing outside of your own province matters in the slightest.

What an ass.  This is a good example of why nobody trusts leftist on the issue.  "We have legitimate concerns".  "So? You're not from Ontario so eff off".

Sure in far northen climates EV adoption will be slower. So will renewables and easy access to nutritional food. 

A vast majority of Canadians live less than 2 hours from the US border. A vast majority of Canadians don't experience such frequent cold. 

Also this thread is focused on Ontario so. . . . 

I was at the movies on Saturday and saw an Ad by the Ontario government touting their commitment to EVs and Battery development. 

Also, in case you haven't heard, Ontario is currently being led by the Progressive Conservative government led by Doug Ford. 

 

Edited January 29, 2024 by Boges

[Boges]

EVs aren't "there" yet. . . 

But an EV was the top selling car, of any kind, globally in 2023. 

https://www.motor1.com/news/706258/tesla-model-y-worlds-top-selling-vehicle-2023/#:~:text=Tesla%2C the California-based EV,selling vehicle in the world.

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An earthquake shook the auto industry in 2023. It wasn't the post-pandemic effects, nor the semiconductor shortage. The big wave came from a company that turned 20 years old last year. Tesla, the California-based EV brand and one of Elon Musk's first companies, now builds the best-selling vehicle in the world.

 

[herbie]

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

A review by the northern Saskatchewan town of La Ronge concluded that adopting electric vehicles for municipal use didn’t make sense and posed too many risks, especially when it comes to emergency use. 

Can you come up with any pettier, thinner excuse to toss at your EVs are bad? Some cornhole town's council made a rather obvious conclusion so that makes your case?

[CdnFox]

30 minutes ago, herbie said:

Can you come up with any pettier, thinner excuse to toss at your EVs are bad? Some cornhole town's council made a rather obvious conclusion so that makes your case?

Awww muffin - love those salty tears

That's just going on the ever growing pile.  But it's interesting that you'd say it's an "obvious" conclusion. So you agree that EV's are less reliable in the cold and not suitable where reliability is a factor.

[Legato]

Just waiting for this guy in EV ads before I'll even consider one.

 

 

[Boges]

26 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Awww muffin - love those salty tears

That's just going on the ever growing pile.  But it's interesting that you'd say it's an "obvious" conclusion. So you agree that EV's are less reliable in the cold and not suitable where reliability is a factor.

I don't think there's a debate. 

I've mentioned Sodium Ion batteries may be a workable solution to the cold issue.

Or that arctic climates may be the last part of the world that transition. Which will mean even higher costs for fossil fuel. But hey they already spend insane prices for food, so. . . 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

I don't think there's a debate. 

I've mentioned Sodium Ion batteries may be a workable solution to the cold issue.

Or that arctic climates may be the last part of the world that transition. Which will mean even higher costs for fossil fuel. But hey they already spend insane prices for food, so. . . 

There shouldn't be a debate about ANY of this - it's all fairly well established.  EV's are a good choice for a relatively small but significant number of drivers and their adaption and development should be encouraged (but not necessarily funded), but it will require a few new technology break throughs to make them a genuine replacement for ice.

It's coming. There's tech in development. It'll happen over time.  It's not today. None of that should be controversial or even disappointing. We're getting there.

[herbie]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So you agree that EV's are less reliable in the cold and not suitable where reliability is a factor.

No you fat head they're a small town with a tiny budget. They'd limit their selection, cost more, they'd have to install multiple chargers and who the hell up there is qualified to service them? Use your brain. For once.

If there plugged in the cold just like any other car they work. Just keep saying they don't, some ignoroids will believe you.

[CdnFox]

38 minutes ago, herbie said:

No you fat head they're a small town with a tiny budget.

So? they tested them and found they didn't work. What - you think you have to buy the 'cheap kind' of electricity when you're on a budget?   But hey - if you have some evidence they bought a poor product then by all means share it

Every time you open your mouth you wind up looking a little dumber. They bought perfectly good ev's, their electricity is the same as everyone else, they had problems. They're going with ICE because they're more reliable when it counts.

[GroundskeeperWillie]

Personally I don't have any feelings either for or against electric cars.  However, one thing I know is that they currently require constant recharging, and the reality is simply that we don't have charging stations everywhere.  This essentially puts  a limit on how far an electric vehicle can go.

[Guest]

On 1/29/2024 at 5:37 PM, Legato said:

Just waiting for this guy in EV ads before I'll even consider one.

 

 

"Now powered by Energizer!" sounds good in principle, but is the equivalent of "this restaurant is under new management", or going to China and buying a dish with "miscellaneous meats" on the ingredients list.

[Legato]

12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

"Now powered by Energizer!" sounds good in principle, but is the equivalent of "this restaurant is under new management", or going to China and buying a dish with "miscellaneous meats" on the ingredients list.

Neither. The outcomes would be intangible. I would prefer the bunney's longevity (yes it's hype). When EV's are in the same class as ICE as per ease of operation and cost, then one might consider.

[Legato]

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Legato said:

When EV's are in the same class as ICE as per ease of operation and cost, then one might consider.

Basically. Operational costs for me, rank high in what type of car I buy.

I like running my cars into the ground, so reliability and durability are huge for me.

EVs are not yet proven in the long haul.

I buy a Ford F150 truck, I know this truck will last me decade operating in excellent condition, as long as well maintained. 

[herbie]

24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I buy a Ford F150 truck, I know this truck will last me decade operating in excellent condition, as long as well maintained. 

Blind Faith,eh? Like their days of : just repeat "Quality is Job One" often enough and they'll believe it.

BTW dismissing the commentaboutf hundreds of millions of EV chargers isn't correct. There already are hundreds of millions of EV chargers.
There's at least one on every single house in N America, the same one you plug your weed whacker, leaf blower. electric mower and block heater into.

[Legato]

51 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Basically. Operational costs for me, rank high in what type of car I buy.

I like running my cars into the ground, so reliability and durability are huge for me.

EVs are not yet proven in the long haul.

I buy a Ford F150 truck, I know this truck will last me decade operating in excellent condition, as long as well maintained. 

Had a F150 for 10 years, kept up on maintenance, never let me down. Sold 3 years ago as I didn't need a truck anymore.

Dealer gave me an excellent trade in value on a smaller ICE vehicle. Same dealership right now has a plethora on EV's on the lot, just sitting there covered in snow.