Canada at the start of Delta dominated fourth Covid wave, so get vaccinated to save lives.

[Infidel Dog]

16 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I didn't read the rest of your post because you started it with a lie. I always backup my numbers with links. You are a liar and manipulator.

I've gotta admit you're not as bad as Argus. What he does is spew proclamations of claims as facts then after you pester him for a link he finally gives you one that turns out not to support what he claimed.

I notice what you like to do is post some link to some some small selected data point somewhere then in following posts suggest this created some broad over-reaching fact that applies to the whole world. And when challenged you say, "Liar. I never said that."

Nice that you'll at least admit now that the infallibility of your "precious" may not apply to children.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Link for this statement please.

It was on quite a few sites but this is the first one I found and I don't have time to search for the one I saw.  This is the same video though.

 

A PATHOLOGIST SUMMARY OF WHAT THESE JABS DO TO THE BRAIN AND OTHER ORGANS (nutritruth.org)

 

Quote

If you do not provide proof for statement like this then this becomes part of campaign of misinformation causing the 6 million hesitancy in this country alone.

This is just a friendly discussion.  You don't need to threaten me.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Goddess

[myata]

The effectiveness of vaccines cannot be proven with more virtual data. If they are effective, in fact and in reality, and with confidence then there's neither ground no reason to continue uniform, mandatory restrictions. Really, it's down to one or the other, credibility of the effectiveness claims, or restrictions. Both and at the same time are not consistent, logically.

[Infidel Dog]

As far as I know there are no Vaccine mandates, pressures or passports in Sweden.

There were no covid deaths in Sweden today either. Nor were there deaths yesterday or the day before.

So what exactly is no deaths in Ontario supposed to prove anyway? I believe I heard the general behavior of the variant is to rise rapidly, spike, then plummet.

[Infidel Dog]

Quote

A group of vaccinated Israelis that flew to Iceland for vacation have contracted the coronavirus, N12 reported late Sunday night. 

 

Few were taken for medical care in local hospitals after their symptoms worsened, the report noted, adding that the estimation is that one of them contracted COVID on the flight and it spread to the rest of the group from there. 

 

At least 30 cases were reported as of Monday, among them one is in moderate condition, one is in serious condition and one is in critical condition. 

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/israelis-flew-to-iceland-30-contracted-covid-report-676835

[Shady]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes really. Duties of governments are not limited to writing and voting on legislations but including that.

I didn’t say that they were limited.  But laws need to be voted and passed the proper way.  Especially ones that are to go on indefinitely.

[CITIZEN_2015]

30 minutes ago, Goddess said:

This is just a friendly discussion.  You don't need to threaten me.

Oh I didn't threaten you I just ask for links to backup your statement. I have heard that many are vaccine hesitant because of what they read on social media (like this one) or rumors they hear about vaccines (some rumors being ridiculous like vaccines changing our DNAs) so I felt like whenever we make statement that may help vaccine hesitancy we need to back it up with solid evidence. I apologize if I offended you.

Edited August 16, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Infidel Dog]

Yeah, you're a real hero. Too bad you weren't around for the Thalidomide crisis.

Wait...I think I meant lucky you weren't.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

Unfortunately, this won't show long-term effects of the vaccine on children.

 

You are right.

The long term effects of covid vaccines are unknowns that is because scientists could not wait 10 years to measure the long term effects of vaccines after 10 years because in the first year alone some estimated 5 million people died from covid. So the decision was to go ahead with tests on selected tens of thousands of people over several months in order to save millions of lives. I do concede that they may be many thousands likely tens of thousands who may pay heavy price in the long term after vaccination. So the choice was, either 50 million deaths (and many millions more who get the virus will have life lasting effects like damaged organs) or tens of thousands of vaccine sufferers in long term. I chose the less of the two evils like most of the experts and scientists did and that is vaccination.

[Zeitgeist]

51 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

You are right.

The long term effects of covid vaccines are unknowns that is because scientists could not wait 10 years to measure the long term effects of vaccines after 10 years because in the first year alone some estimated 5 million people died from covid. So the decision was to go ahead with tests on selected tens of thousands of people over several months in order to save millions of lives. I do concede that they may be many thousands likely tens of thousands who may pay heavy price in the long term after vaccination. So the choice was, either 50 million deaths (and many millions more who get the virus will have life lasting effects like damaged organs) or tens of thousands of vaccine sufferers in long term. I chose the less of the two evils like most of the experts and scientists did and that is vaccination.

Good, so you see that every choice is a calculated risk and there are few certainties.  There are probabilities and calculated risks.  The calculations clearly indicate that with 70-80% of adults vaccinated and the remaining eligible unvaccinated making the conscious choice not to bother getting vaccinated after incessant media pressure to do so, and with a lower than run of the mill flu level risk of death to the vaccine-ineligible (children), there is no justification for any restrictions in Canada.   

Edited August 16, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Goddess]

Quote

The long term effects of covid vaccines are unknowns 

Exactly.

Which is why there should not be forced vaccinations.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

because in the first year alone some estimated 5 million people died from covid.

And how many will die in the years to come? The vaccination destroys the mechanisms to keep cancers and other issues in check.

What will you be saying 5 or 10 years from now when the ICUs are overrun with cancer patients? "Well, at least they didn't die of covid."  But they also may not have died from cancer, if they didn't have the shot.

I'm not saying NO VACCINES.  I'm saying there is something fishy about the rate and pace that this is being forced on the public.

I'm saying it's a choice each person needs to weigh individually.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Goddess

[Zeitgeist]

There’s something fishy about a lot of government-imposed measures these days, which is why government intervention must never be taken lightly. We’ve surrendered our freedoms for a level of risk that no longer exists.

[CITIZEN_2015]

42 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And how many will die in the years to come? The vaccination destroys the mechanisms to keep cancers and other issues in check.

What will you be saying 5 or 10 years from now when the ICUs are overrun with cancer patients? "Well, at least they didn't die of covid."  But they also may not have died from cancer, if they didn't have the shot.

I'm not saying NO VACCINES.  I'm saying there is something fishy about the rate and pace that this is being forced on the public.

I'm saying it's a choice each person needs to weigh individually.

Again you are making scary statements without a shred of evidence to back up your statement. what evidence do you have that covid vaccines cause cancer?

Sometimes we have to make unpopular choices for collective good of community as a whole based on the best of available data. So far the results have been very good. At this rate of infection last year we had about 10 death every day in Ontario (up to 100 deaths sometimes at the peak). The vaccines have prevented deaths among vaccinated people and I am not aware of anyone claiming cancer from vaccine.

Edited August 16, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s something fishy about a lot of government-imposed measures these days, which is why government intervention must never be taken lightly. We’ve surrendered our freedoms for a level of risk that no longer exists.

Government can also impose state of emergency during crisis. It was a crisis last year when hospitals were overwhelmed and surgeries canceled and thousand of people dying. Remember the war measures act?

[myata]

Just some numbers for the reference, and whoever may be interested. From readily available stats, Covid-19 mortality:

Quebec: 1,340 / million capita

Sweden: 1,370 / million

Ontario: 667

It is not clear which factor(s) are responsible for such a difference between Quebec and Ontario, with very similar Covid policies. Could it be more close social culture and international connections?

Anyways, the difference between Quebec and Sweden, the latter focused on citizen information and to the best of my knowledge had no mandatory restrictions and lockdowns, is non existent. Sweden did not do great on protecting vulnerable population, especially in retirement residences, so that result certainly could be improved with more effective targeted policies.

Now for comparison, other leading causes in Canada:

cancer (dominated by lung cancer): 2,420

cardiovascular disease: 1,570

accidents: 380

total for main causes: 4,600.

The take: in Quebec one would get the same risk of serious Covid-19 as in Sweden, with intelligent information policy and no mandatory population-wide restrictions, that is 3.5 times less than the leading causes combined.

That was before vaccination effect is taken into account.

 

[myata]

More numbers

Victoria (Australia): 122,4 / million (820 total)

New South Wales: 13.4 (110 total)

Australia adopted very strict Covid policy with strict local quarantines triggered even by single cases.

Comparing, it appears that by severity the policy in Quebec and Ontario aimed at strict management, while in reality achieved the level of Sweden, with no mandatory measures. Compared to world's standard of strict management, Quebec recorded over 10 times higher than the highest  province in Australia, whereas Ontario, almost 50 times higher than NSW.

Now it would be interesting to compare public health budgets in Ontario, Quebec, Sweden and Australia.

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Government can also impose state of emergency during crisis. It was a crisis last year when hospitals were overwhelmed and surgeries canceled and thousand of people dying. Remember the war measures act?

Yes.  The vaccines were approved only as an emergency measure.  Crisis is the buzzword that is being used to curtail all sorts of freedoms.  As I go back to work I have endless masking and Covid protocols to look forward to despite the fact that I and everyone who is eligible to be vaccinated in my workplace has gotten vaccinated.  I’ll get to attend anti-racist training where everyone will be told that they’re racist whether they know it or not and despite the fact that our policies are as inclusive as they come.  Truth doesn’t matter anymore.  The name of the game is fear, shame, separation, isolation, harsher work conditions, restrictions on your movements, and more pleasantries in the name of fighting a disease with a lower death rate than the flu for the vaccinated and children.   It’s bullshit.  Fear of a chimera is being used to justify oppression and very few politicians are calling it out.  Now we’re being told to get boosters and prepare for a 4th wave that’s already underway.  I don’t believe in it anymore and I don’t trust government to look out for my interests.  There’s no further justification for restrictions in Ontario or Canada, period.  Your freedoms are being removed for no good reason.   

Edited August 17, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t believe in it anymore and I don’t trust government to look out for my interests.  There’s no further justification for restrictions in Ontario or Canada, period.  Your freedoms are being removed for no good reason.   

Democracy was never about governments looking out for citizens interests but it's easy to forget. Democracy is about citizens overseeing and controlling governments to make them work for their, not own, interests. We here have a clear case of runaway authorities, out of all reasonable checks, accountability and control.

Edited August 17, 2021 by myata

[Goddess]

16 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

what evidence do you have that covid vaccines cause cancer?

I just showed you the video.  Did you watch it?  I'm tired of people here asking for proof of statements and then paying zero attention to it.

[CITIZEN_2015]

24 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I just showed you the video.  Did you watch it?  I'm tired of people here asking for proof of statements and then paying zero attention to it.

That was no evidence, no scientific data but lots of speculations. I am tired of campaign of misinformation by anri-vaxxers. 

I can counter that by many many articles by experts

https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/myths-about-covid-19-vaccines

Myth: The mRNA vaccines change your DNA and could cause cancer.

Truth: None of the vaccines interact with or alter your DNA in any way, and therefore cannot cause cancer.

Messenger RNA (mRNA) is not the same as DNA and cannot be combined with DNA to change your genetic code. Here’s now mRNA vaccines actually work:

The mRNA vaccines use a tiny piece of the coronavirus’ genetic code to teach your immune system how to make a protein that will trigger an immune response if you get infected. The mRNA is fragile, so after it delivers the instructions to your cells, it breaks down and disappears from the body (in about 72 hours). The mRNA never even goes into the nucleus of the cell — the part that contains your DNA.

Therefore, there is no truth to the myth that somehow the mRNA vaccine could inactivate the genes that suppress tumors.

Edited August 17, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[myata]

As more vaccination requirements introduced, there's no mentioning neither any conversation of removing blank, population-wide restrictions, sometimes with weak or questionable evidence. When are indiscriminate population-wide the restrictions coming down? Continuing them flies in the face of purported claims of high efficacy of vaccines.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Of the 163 people who are hospitalized with COVID-19 but are not in the ICU, 14 are fully vaccinated and 149 are not fully vaccinated or have an unknown vaccination status, Elliot said. There are three fully vaccinated people out of 127 in the ICU. 

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/oph-reports-14-new-covid-19-cases-in-ottawa-on-tuesday-1.5550192

[Zeitgeist]

It’s looking like no matter how many vaccines you get or how many cases there are, restrictions are permanent.  I’m waiting to be proven wrong.  Mild risks are met with heavy restrictions.  

[Argus]

18 hours ago, Goddess said:

And how many will die in the years to come? The vaccination destroys the mechanisms to keep cancers and other issues in check.

Cite, please. And not a video.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Argus