"Steadily rising prosperity of Canadians"

[cougar]

On 7/29/2021 at 4:50 AM, myata said:

What else needed to start building solid, sustainable prosperity for everybody? Something novel and original, to be proud of and marvel?

 

There is no "building".  It is all destruction.

If you want to build, you start with a plan - so many people, they will be living in this place and in that place, resources will be shared and a small percentage will be traded.  

But when you have capitalism, where things are not shared and there is no plan other than to grow like a mushroom or like a tumor, you get the result that one could have envisaged a long time prior.

I am both unfortunate and somewhat pleased to live in times where humans get close to reaping the rewards of their bright future.  If I am not hit by the next calamity, I am sure I will witness more such catastrophic events - cities burnt, people dying in floods, hurricanes and tornadoes.  

People who would not like me or listen to me anyways, time to see them go with the flow, flushed down their prosperity lane, or choked on the thick smoke their wealth generated.

Edited August 3, 2021 by cougar

[OftenWrong]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:50 AM, myata said:

It was an interesting and very necessary social experiment. Plentiful land, very few people. Fish that can be taken with a bucket forests from ocean to the ocean. People free from prejudices, problems and strife. What else needed to start building solid, sustainable prosperity for everybody? Something novel and original, to be proud of and marvel?

No, let's do it the old way. Fish drained out forests and beavers cut and sold. Turkeys and bison all but exterminated. And just over a century on, back to the same old, those sitting on public money cutting themselves pieces and shares, no restraints, limits or shame, back to the business of cutting and sawing, bread vs. brioches.

Too bad, yawn. It could have been interesting and exciting. Why couldn't it?

 

Well it's like my pappy used to say, "I didn't make this tree, son. I'm just sittin in it."

 

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

People free from prejudices, problems and strife.

I take issue with this part, though. How do we know it's true? I heard about wars, and rumours of wars. These are just ordinary people like anywhere else, tribal, suspicious of strangers. They might have a virus... kill the bastards. That is the fundamental code from which we spring fourth. And even fifth and sixth, too.

[myata]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:50 AM, OftenWrong said:

I take issue with this part, though. How do we know it's true?

It's not exactly correct, more like potential, a possibility, like why going there if there's something different, new and exciting, not cut more for yourself and hope it'll work out somehow where didn't before. It will be obvious when a median income family with two incomes (under $90,000) will drop all claims to "prosperity" and go into surviving and that point is near, if not passed already.

As seen in the beautiful province's leading university, "40% of students do not have enough for food", while tuition went up times 6 in one generation.

This is no "rising prosperity", only accelerating stratification into haves who prosper ever more and better, including on the public dime and have nots who survive. A construction worker, "good job", 1.5 hour daily commute one way (can't afford anything closer), $60K just paying the rent and bills for the family, thank you here's the brochure enjoy your prosperity!

[myata]

On 8/3/2021 at 8:50 AM, OftenWrong said:

That is the fundamental code from which we spring fourth. And even fifth and sixth, too.

You're saying we're programmed to this, eventually running the course and accomplishing the mission? I like to be hopeful that there could be another path, and course. But the experience and history doesn't seem to support it. And we see no advanced intelligent aliens either.

[myata]

The bottom line: in a democracy, all and any authority is responsible and accountable to the citizens; in a democracy citizens have the duty to be active, vigilant and demand responsibility and accountability from authorities on any and all matters. That is the only way a democracy can work and it won't work any other way. So any other way will lead inevitably, possibly via long process of degradation and decay of functions and institutions to the default condition. Where the elites rule without explaining, and the peasants, general pueblo survive without any voice. And what if it's not one-way broad prospect of social progress, but only a pendulum, up and down, there and back again?

[myata]

So I'd like to propose this measure of prosperity. In my view, it's way more reliable than sunny days reports. First, we take a family with median income of just under $90,000 according to statistics. Median means that it splits the population exactly in half: half of the population has income below the median line.

Then we subtract all mandatory expenses like taxes, pension and insurance etc. Then go those just necessary for life like accommodation, basic food and supplies, transportation, and in this century, Internet and communications. Sure, childcare expenses, too. And whatever is left, divided by the median income, would tell us, in fractions, the measure of real, actual prosperity in the society. We can watch this number over time as it does not need to be adjusted. And if and when it would enter the negative, minus zone it could mean only one thing: we are no longer an equitable society with prosperity shared universally in the population. Because there's no way a society where half of the population is surviving can be called equitable and prosperous, no matter what the pretty ratings say. That would be f...lying.

[Queenmandy85]

Myata, it appears your issue is you don't make enough money. I skipped over a lot of this thread, but you mentioned university education. If you want to make money, get a trade. Plumbing, electrical, computer tech, take your pick. I have a cabin on a lake in the Kootenays and the largest boat on the lake is owned by a plumber. It dwarfs the boats owned by all the lawyers and doctors.

[myata]

That is such a funny joke. In half of the countries of Europe university education is free. A fast and still affordable train takes you from one capital to another in less than an hour. For ten euros you can have a great meal with a great beer and what can you get for the equivalent in this country? Super expensive roof over head, super expensive transit (1 euro in Athens, end to end) forget train just doesn't make sense, super expensive bureaucracy super expensive next to everything why would anyone want to move here except refugees who have it even worse in their native places? How are you going to compete for the place and the talent in this century, with what? Canada is turning into a sad dead end train led by a driver that is both blind and deaf to the reality. There's still some of the country left to sell to China so it can go on for a while, but not like there are any alternatives for the destination, where are they, and how?

Sure the government will figure out the housing crisis like it figured out the healthcare for a generation, just don't blow on the crumbling system! Only a few more decades, with automatic annual increases.

Edited October 6, 2021 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

Don't be so glum.

"After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock". Orson Wells (Harry Lyme) the Third Man

Clearly, you need more money. Like I said, get a trade. Go to your nearest institute of technology and take electrical, plumbing, or welding. You will make all the money you need and spend a lot less on tuition than you would going to university.

[myata]

It's not gloom it's the dinosaur. When it's a law of nature, gloom or (pretense and unfounded) cheerfulness won't make a grain of difference. If in doubt, try it with eternal motion (or ask them from first-hand experience).

P.S. trades make no sense too. I recently done my own roof because it simply doesn't make sense to have anything to do with trades unless you work in the government bureaucracy, banking etc or absolutely have no other choice. Why would you spend 20, 50 times the cost of doing it yourself? You want an honest opinion? Very little makes sense in Canada as things stand. $8 beer + tax and tip, nonsense. $18 burger plus tax/tip, not really. $2,000 rent like the heck. Healthcare system? Eternal quest for a family doctor? University tuition? The list goes on and on and we only have to get to that happy moment when everyone in the country would get an automatic annual raise (from where though? OK that's boring details) not only our employees-representatives. And worse, the vector is wrong. And worse still, there's nothing, like total near absolute vacuum that could influence that vector, even theoretically. Now just put on that happy tune and hope it all will fix itself somehow, that seems to be the chief strategy, not so?

Edited October 6, 2021 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 

1. "After all it's not that awful. You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock". Orson Wells (Harry Lyme) the Third Man

2. Clearly, you need more money. Like I said, get a trade. Go to your nearest institute of technology and take electrical, plumbing, or welding. You will make all the money you need and spend a lot less on tuition than you would going to university.

  1. Great film, great quote.  But I don't understand the relevance.
  2. It's a bit flippant to tell someone "go get a trade" when your generation was paying household-carrying salaries out of high school.  The responsibility of the government is to create an even playing field for all and ensure opportunities are there for young people.  That clearly isn't happening.

From this "the trades" pay less than $20/hr and that will mean about $2500/month after taxes about 1/2 of which would barely be enough to get by on your own in most Canadian cities.

https://rentals.ca/national-rent-report

I believe that educated young people are going to deploy massive socialism upon Canada because of the blindness of trickle-down economics.  And I am not saying here if it's good or bad.

https://ca.talent.com/salary?job=trades#:~:text=The average trades salary in,up to %2475%2C678 per year.

 

[Queenmandy85]

The thing to keep in perspective is, the most precious commodity we have is time. You can always get more money but you cannot get more time. 

Trades people are starting to retire and there are not enough new people going into the trades. I presume Myata you are competent to fix your own roof but if you have an electrical problem I recommend you get a certified electrician.

If you go to something like BCIT, take plumbing, the course takes about 4-6 months and cuts your apprenticeship down to 18 months. Then you are a journeyman. If you get into a union shop, you will be making over $30 an hour. If you can't live on that, you have other problems. If you open your own shop, you will probably have the biggest boat on the lake.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

From this "the trades" pay less than $20/hr and that will mean about $2500/month after taxes about 1/2 of which would barely be enough to get by on your own in most Canadian cities.

I have 7 years of university with a double degree in military history and psychology. That got me a job as a Peace Officer making about 60% of what the electricians and plumbers were making.

Housing is so expensive because we all want to live in downtown Vancouver or Toronto. Move to a place like Trail BC and you can buy a $1.5 million house for under $300K, but if you are a journeyman plumber, you can afford more. And bonus, Red Mountain is a 10 minute drive up the hill.

I agree, the transit system in Western Europe is superior to Canada.

If you don't like the cost of beer, make your own. Same with burgers.

[Queenmandy85]

3 hours ago, myata said:

P.S. trades make no sense too. I recently done my own roof because it simply doesn't make sense to have anything to do with trades unless you work in the government bureaucracy, banking

How much do you think working in a bank pays? It's peanuts and you have no union.

[myata]

Its tunnel vision to work your a.. off just to buy more and more expensive and at that, bland and mediocre stuff (like Canadian beer) while some of us enjoy automatic annual % on % raises, just because they can endow them upon themselves, and for little other reason while there are places where one could just enjoy life and have good value for one's work. The world is a large place no need to get stuck. I mean one always can but that would be a choice.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If you don't like the cost of beer, make your own. Same with burgers.

Or I could pay for the beer and food (and taxes maybe?) where I like them, and their prices? Who said there's only one choice, or two? This isn't 16th or 18th but 21st century.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

1. Trades people are starting to retire and there are not enough new people going into the trades.
 
2. If you go to something like BCIT, take plumbing, the course takes about 4-6 months and cuts your apprenticeship down to 18 months. Then you are a journeyman. If you get into a union shop, you will be making over $30 an hour. If you can't live on that, you have other problems.

3. I have 7 years of university with a double degree in military history and psychology. That got me a job as a Peace Officer making about 60% of what the electricians and plumbers were making.

4. Housing is so expensive because we all want to live in downtown Vancouver or Toronto.

5. Move to a place like Trail BC and you can buy a $1.5 million house for under $300K

 

1. Wait - isn't EVERYBODY starting to retire ?  Boom, Bust, Echo ?
2. That's $3,700 per month and average rent in Canada is $1,700 per month so you're not exactly living like a king there.
3.  My last new boss got a photography degree at York... she was good at organizing and ended up in Silicon Valley likely making $200K.  She was 25+ years younger than me.  
4.  Not making $30/hr we don't want...
5.  A host that costs $300K is a $300K house.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

How much do you think working in a bank pays? It's peanuts and you have no union.

I have a friend who worked for a bank for over two decades.  She quit to go work for Amazon, cause it pays more even at a starting salary.

[Michael Hardner]

37 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I have a friend who worked for a bank for over two decades.  She quit to go work for Amazon, cause it pays more even at a starting salary.

Well... I am pretty sure the branch manager makes more than a deliverer but ok...

[dialamah]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well... I am pretty sure the branch manager makes more than a deliverer but ok...

She's not a deliverer, nor a packer (unless needed), nor a stocker. She does make more than they do, at about $30 an hour, but isn't a manager - she's part of the health and safety team.  Bank paid her about $21 an hour, even with her extensive first aid training.

[myata]

We already done the calc, with $50 K salary and double that for a family one cannot afford $100 for mediocre food and $8 beer, more like making it from paycheck to paycheck. The ones who prosper here are PS bozos, high tech and various CEO that's pretty much it. And so, Canada's train is on a one way trek somewhere with automatic annual raises and increases. Where to, anyone wants to know?

[myata]

I buy fresh, warm out of the oven bread in Europe at $ 0.15 - 1 a piece. In Canada the equivalent goes for $6 - 8 and I'm sure will be 10 at some point soon if not already and why not if there's demand from the CEO etc crowd? Everyone else welcome to bland supermarket imitation still many times the price of the real product elsewhere. Good, freshly cooked home style meal, under $10. A burger, $18 plus tax and tip. Take a train anywhere for 10 - 20 Euro. Drive for hours spending as much on gas. OK that's bread but what is cheap in Canada, where is a good deal, what's there to offer to compete with, except cutting and selling raw (old growth) wood, oil and contents of the shield? Where is the vector pointing? Is the direction totally wrong in this century of global information and competition, or just me?

[Michael Hardner]

28 minutes ago, myata said:

 Is the direction totally wrong in this century of global information and competition, or just me?

You should have more opportunity, given your circumstances as stated.

[Faramir]

A couple liberals from Portland moved to Canada and joined our bible study.  They bragged how they tried to change their father's conservative stripes.  Then a month later they moved BACK to Portland because they couldn't afford to live here.

For anyone who has been to Europe know how unaffordable it is there.  Canada is becoming much like Europe.  Out of reach.

[Faramir]

On 7/26/2021 at 10:39 AM, Shady said:

Thanks to inflation and carbon taxes, everything costs more.  These increases aren’t being offset by equivalent increases in wages.  Most of the middle class has been completely priced out of buying a home.  Saving for a down payment now takes 3 times longer.  

And government services.  I have four kids so 6 passports renewals will cost me 6 times 150 = $900!!