Who will stand up for Canada?

[Dougie93]

Just now, Iceni warrior said:

 

The food in the officer's and Sgt's messes was generally of a higher standard.

in the Canadian Army the food is the same, the officers don't eat any better than the men

the food in the Canadian Army was the best

Normandy Mess in Petawawa was like a restaurant you could take your family to eat at

soft ice cream machines, steak & lobster night, even the salad bar was better than how most armies eat

the mess in Trenton went one step further tho, they had a pizza bar and beer on tap in the eating mess

[Aristides]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

kind of

the British wanted America to pay more for it's defense

but then America was like, sure we'll pay, but we want control over own defense

then Britain was like, on second thought, no guns for you, we got this

boom, American Revolution

 

It was a reasonable expectation by the British but very poorly executed.

The Americans wanted a free hand expanding into territories where Britain had treaties with FN. The reason why FN sided with the British.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Aristides

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

It was a reasonable expectation by the British but very poorly executed.

The Americans wanted a free hand expanding into territories where Britain had treaties with FN. The reason why FN sided with the British.

without the guns

America couldn't expand into the Ohio River Valley

so America couldn't cotton the British gun grabbing

that was the casus belli

didn't want to give the Americans control of their own defense

because they were going to go expanding

into somewhere they didn't want them to

Edited June 9, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Aristides said:

The Americans wanted a free hand expanding into territories where Britain had treaties with FN.

exactly. it was all about the Ohio Valley

Americans had to go West, Manifest Destiny, the Crown was standing in the way

it was all about the Ohio Valley when Major George Washington attacked the French at Jumonville Glen in fact

[Dougie93]

the West was like another planet, they had no idea what was out there

the American colonists were like astronauts on a new world

the British Parliament was telling them they were not allowed to explore it

that was the war, right there

[Iceni warrior]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

in the Canadian Army the food is the same, the officers don't eat any better than the men

the food in the Canadian Army was the best

Normandy Mess in Petawawa was like a restaurant you could take your family to eat at

soft ice cream machines, steak & lobster night, even the salad bar was better than how most armies eat

the mess in Trenton went one step further tho, they had a pizza bar and beer on tap in the eating mess

I imagine the Canadian army has a much higher budget for feeding it's men.

We had a budget of around three quid a day per man for breakfast, lunch and evening meals.

I blame Maggie's policy of privatisation and granting contracts to the lowest bidder.

[Zeitgeist]

The article below is one of the the most irresponsible pieces of journalism I have ever read.  I have ended my subscription to The Toronto Star for allowing articles full of unsubstantiated claims, including the intentional murder of Indigenous by the Catholic Church.  This newspaper should be boycotted.  Strong feelings are not facts.  Allowing incorrect language to pass as truth is irresponsible.  The Star used to have well-researched articles and balanced opinion pieces.  It’s nothing more than a mouthpiece for a very narrow, radical, dubious perspective.  This article reads like it was written by an angry 10 year-old.  Full of judgment without reference to facts.  How could any serious political or religious leader take this seriously?  There can be no reconciliation without truth   

https://apple.news/AR8B62rT3RRGO8gesye9DcA

Here’s one paragraph:

“They were stolen from their families, stripped of their identity, abused in every manner — physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally, verbally and spiritually. Each given a number to be identified by, like cattle. The agenda was genocide — “kill the Indian in the child” — assimilate them into the mainstream, the white culture, the white religion.“

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The article below is one of the the most irresponsible pieces of journalism I have ever read. ...

https://apple.news/AR8B62rT3RRGO8gesye9DcA

Here’s one paragraph:

“They were stolen from their families, stripped of their identity, abused in every manner — physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally, verbally and spiritually. Each given a number to be identified by, like cattle. The agenda was genocide — “kill the Indian in the child” — assimilate them into the mainstream, the white culture, the white religion.“

 

The Star sucks but I see nothing inaccurate about that paragraph re: residential schools generally.

What they should do is find cause of death with the aboriginal kids that were found, if possible.  Most of them probably died of disease as was common, but many probably were neglected and malnourished too.

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

I imagine the Canadian army has a much higher budget for feeding it's men.

We had a budget of around three quid a day per man for breakfast, lunch and evening meals.

I blame Maggie's policy of privatisation and granting contracts to the lowest bidder.

of course you blame Maggie, but it does not originate with her, and the Americans are the same

when you are a military power you have to spend the money on the weapons not fancy fare for the troops

but Canada has the ultimate boutique army, protected by the Americans

so Canada has an armed civil service where all the money is spent on perks, and almost none is spent on weapons

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Star sucks but I see nothing inaccurate about that paragraph re: residential schools generally.

What they should do is find cause of death with the aboriginal kids that were found, if possible.  Most of them probably died of disease as was common, but many probably were neglected and malnourished too.

I think most of the staff were caring people who did what they thought would help equip Indigenous to be educated and successful.  Yes they taught their religious values, which were positive.  I think physical abuse by our standards today was prevalent in most schools as corporal punishment, and maybe there was more of it in Indigenous schools.  Maybe.  Prove otherwise.  Claims of genocide and other extreme characterizations of whole organizations are grossly irresponsible and unsubstantiated.  Be sure to include historic context as well because life was much harder then on most people.  

Edited June 9, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Iceni warrior]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

of course you blame Maggie

It's my default position. 

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

It's my default position. 

ignominious

 

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

I have actually cooked for the British Army at STANTA including for Prince Harry when he was there with the Marines.

I didn't resort to deep frying everything and regularly got comments like ''best food since joining the army'' in the comments book.

I will admit that I was perhaps the exception rather than the norm.

In defence of my less conscientious fellow cooks I will say that the average squaddie didn't have the most sophisticated palate.  

The food in the officer's and Sgt's messes was generally of a higher standard.

Served along side British forces dozens of time, In Bosnia, and Afghanistan, and the food was bottom shelf, deep fried morning lunch and supper, spent 8 mouths in Camp Souter, the food was not bad, but anything green was in short supply again lots of fried stuff. no constipation on that camp every just slide right out....They were having problems getting their food trucks down from the UK, always short on something, a few weeks our meals came out of large cans, one can only eat so much turkey out of a can...

Now the Americans had it all from BBQ, to lobster, Ice creams, Sodas of every type, even had Pizza delight, burger king, Kentucky fried chicken , and many others, out of sea cans, we thought we had it good with Tim hornets, Americans had it all and much more...

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think most of the staff were caring people who did what they thought would help equip Indigenous to be educated and successful.  Yes they taught their religious values, which were positive.  I think physical abuse by our standards today was prevalent in most schools as corporal punishment, and maybe there was more of it in Indigenous schools.  Maybe.  Prove otherwise.  Claims of genocide and other extreme characterizations of whole organizations are grossly irresponsible and unsubstantiated.  Be sure to include historic context as well because life was much harder then on most people.  

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and it would not take a giant leap to think these children where mistreated even by the standards set at the time. Lets not forget even the government was calling them savages, that set the tone, their is historical records of massive racism ongoing Indians were not allow in salons, hotels, or other stores...Add that to the picture and it becomes possible.

  You said prove other wise, well to start with their are thousands of interviews and statements taken already, There may be some written records of abuse or neglect but who records abuses of the church when your the church..., and until they are investigated no one is going to know for sure what happened, and everyone is jumping to conclusions..... what we do know was is it was bad either way, how bad is the question.

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

Well I agree it's a problem for which I certainly don't have answer.  I guess it's each individual's choice whether to support what we have, give up on it or fight for change. 

I agree 100 %, but right now the Canadian people don't have the fight in them, to fight for any of our major issues, unless it is within the the latest fad, like the million genders the LGBT community wants or has not even sure right now, or BLM these organizations are on the extreme left, and for the most part above the law when it comes being prosecuted by the law both here and in the US... We should be shutting down all extremes left and right at the same time...

Canadians have known for decades the shape their military is in, ...or for that matter the entire security apparatus, and they just shrug their shoulders, the know that good soldiers have died on the battle field because of poor equipment again they shrug their shoulders, or our vets need massive attention, taking their lives by the dozens,  same for first nations, health care, education, shit it would be shorter to write the depts. that don't need fixing...comedians make a living off the jokes about our entire governmental departments and what a joke they are, so their is no excuse we did not know, it comes down to either the problems can't be fixed .. or they are just don't care enough to take action...

I know you said it is an individual chioce, but it feels like the majority and already given up the fight, this is how divided our country is right now...I remember the first day i joined the forces, i was gung ho and patriotic as F***, as i progressed through my career that patriot became jaded, and i served as long as i did because of the men and women to the left of me and to the right of me, nothing more, they deserved atleast that much....all because our nation had given up on us, they don't care how much they sacrifice nor do they care, an ungrateful nation .. not all Canadians there are a minority out there that do care. And the majority are happy to watch it burn to the ground...

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, dialamah said:

Realistically, any government can restrict freedoms with the stroke of a pen.  The institutions and laws we have are only as good as the populace willing to obey them.  If enough people aren't, then violence is likely to ensue as government tries to enforce that law.  The US system isn't inherently better or worse than Canada's, it's just different, imo.

It was done without debate, or known facts, just someone's opinion or best guess, and like i said before the majority does not care to see the big picture they are stuck in their own spheres they have their own problems to deal with... 

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and it would not take a giant leap to think these children where mistreated even by the standards set at the time. Lets not forget even the government was calling them savages, that set the tone, their is historical records of massive racism ongoing Indians were not allow in salons, hotels, or other stores...Add that to the picture and it becomes possible.

  You said prove other wise, well to start with their are thousands of interviews and statements taken already, There may be some written records of abuse or neglect but who records abuses of the church when your the church..., and until they are investigated no one is going to know for sure what happened, and everyone is jumping to conclusions..... what we do know was is it was bad either way, how bad is the question.

I don’t think that not providing education was better, and as mentioned previously, there simply weren’t enough local schools to keep everyone at home.

 I agree that Indigenous were looked down on for their way of life, but how was that life and how was it perceived by most people?  Probably as quite harsh.  It was probably a way of life that few Indigenous would choose today.  The reality is that when Talaga and Palmateer and other champions of Indigenous cultures speak, they are using tools that are the product of Canadian education systems.  There must be something of great value and empowerment about these systems.

Anyone who abuses people is being a bad person, but I do not think that was the majority of educators in residential schools.  Corporal punishment was commonplace in all schools as standard discipline.  The separation from families is sad and shouldn’t have been mandatory.   It starts to look like all the problems among Indigenous are being blamed by some on residential schools or “colonialism”.  

Residential schools were on balance not a good idea and some very tragic things happened in them.  We need to find out causes of death and try to understand what was typical, not exceptional, in these places. We need to learn from our mistakes and be specific about accountability.  We have to help people heal and turn the page, but we must be fair and accurate. I’m not sure that’s possible given how politicized previous inquiries have been. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I know you said it is an individual chioce, but it feels like the majority and already given up the fight, this is how divided our country is right now...I remember the first day i joined the forces, i was gung ho and patriotic as F***, as i progressed through my career that patriot became jaded, and i served as long as i did because of the men and women to the left of me and to the right of me, nothing more, they deserved atleast that much....all because our nation had given up on us, they don't care how much they sacrifice nor do they care, an ungrateful nation .. not all Canadians there are a minority out there that do care. And the majority are happy to watch it burn to the ground...

Canada has simply fallen to the forces of darkness

the racially revanchist Woke mobs & the doomsday cult of the Greens

just because the Nazis wave the Maple Leaf in your face, does not make them your people

Canada is like Vichy France fallen to a mortal enemy, existential threat

God, Queen, Country calls you to fight against Canada now, scorched earth

for the men to the left & right of you, who defend & uphold the Enlightenment itself

we few, we happy few, we band of brothers

ducimus

Edited June 10, 2021 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

16 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t think that not providing education was better, and as mentioned previously, there simply weren’t enough local schools to keep everyone at home.

 I agree that Indigenous were looked down on for their way of life, but how was that life and how was it perceived by most people?  Probably as quite harsh.  It was probably a way of life that few Indigenous would choose today.  The reality is that when Talaga and Palmateer and other champions of Indigenous cultures speak, they are using tools that are the product of Canadian education systems.  There must be something of great value and empowerment about these systems.

Anyone who abuses people is being a bad person, but I do not think that was the majority of educators in residential schools.  Corporal punishment was commonplace in all schools as standard discipline.  The separation from families is sad and shouldn’t have been mandatory.   It starts to look like all the problems among Indigenous are being blamed by some on residential schools or “colonialism”.  

Residential schools were on balance not a good idea and some very tragic things happened in them.  We need to find out causes of death and try to understand what was typical, not exceptional, in these places. We need to learn from our mistakes and be specific about accountability.  We have to help people heal and turn the page, but we must be fair and accurate. I’m not sure that’s possible given how politicized previous inquiries have been. 

Here is my rub, the Canadian government decided " why don't we educate all these savages so they will fit into our world much better" when the current white settlers thought them to be less than desirable. so off they go, they show up at your home and take your kids by force if needed, "because they knew better or atleast thought so... And while first nations lives where very harsh at the time, they had been living like that for generations before the white man came...The government and church forced them into another foreign culture. Talk about winning hearts and minds...

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Here is my rub, the Canadian government decided " why don't we educate all these savages so they will fit into our world much better" when the current white settlers thought them to be less than desirable. so off they go, they show up at your home and take your kids by force if needed, "because they knew better or atleast thought so... And while first nations lives where very harsh at the time, they had been living like that for generations before the white man came...The government and church forced them into another foreign culture. Talk about winning hearts and minds...

That wasn't what was originally imagined by those who thought up the idea. And none of them predicted the kind of brutality or sexual mistreatment which occurred. These schools should have been more tightly monitored by the government. But the truth is few schools were. Pedophiles ran free in schools and society for decades because society at large didn't really even understand that was a thing. 

This is about Egerton Ryerson, the man whose statue was torn down and beheaded last week. Read this to see just how out of proportion and misguided so many people are on this issue.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/the-imbecile-attack-on-egerton-ryerson

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, Argus said:

That wasn't what was originally imagined by those who thought up the idea. And none of them predicted the kind of brutality or sexual mistreatment which occurred. These schools should have been more tightly monitored by the government. But the truth is few schools were. Pedophiles ran free in schools and society for decades because society at large didn't really even understand that was a thing. 

This is about Egerton Ryerson, the man whose statue was torn down and beheaded last week. Read this to see just how out of proportion and misguided so many people are on this issue.

https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/the-imbecile-attack-on-egerton-ryerson

Egerton Ryerson was an ally and champion of Indigenous:

“As a young man he was appointed to the Credit mission, home of the Mississaugas. At the Credit Mission, located in what is today the City of Mississauga, the 23-year old set out in 1826/27 to learn Ojibwe (Anishinaabemowin) and worked in the fields with the people of the settlement. “I was at that time a perfect stranger to Indians, and but little acquainted with their customs,”  Ryerson reported in the American Methodist Magazine in 1827. “But the affectionate manner in which they received me, and the joy they appeared to feel on the occasion, removed all the strangeness of national feeling, and enabled me to embrace them as brethren, and love them as mine own people.  The first Methodist missionary to live with the Credit Mississauga, Ryerson joined their fight to secure a title deed to their lands at the mouth of the Credit River, 12 miles west of Toronto. He stood by them to protect their remaining land base against the ever-encroaching British Canadian settlers (by this time, Indigenous peoples constituted less than 1% of the Canada West population). His hope, indeed the progressive way of thinking at the time, was to help Indigenous communities become farmers. He won their respect. The Credit Mississauga admired Egerton, who rolled up his sleeves, ate and lived and toiled alongside them. At a council fire in December 1826 the Credit Mississauga “adopted” the 23-year-old, giving him the Ojibwe name of a well-regarded recently deceased chief: “Cheechock” or “Chechalk,” who had belonged to the Eagle doodem. The name “Chechalk” meant “Bird on the Wing.” Ryerson also became a life-long friend of future chief Kahkewaquonaby (Sacred Feathers), known as Peter Jones.  He never forgot his Mississauga friends. [...] During his long career, he also advanced the careers of a number of talented young Indigenous men. During his 1836-37 trip to England, Ryerson hoped to influence Queen Victoria, who ascended to the throne in June 1837, and appealed to church authorities and British government officials for the protection of the Anishinabeg’s remaining land base in Upper Canada.”