Many defenseless civilians killed in Israeli brutal attacks and Arab retaliations.

[marcus]

U.S. Relationship with Israel

The U.S. government should stop giving Israel a blank cheque, then maybe they would do things differently. Then they might not have this mentality that they can get away with anything. Biden just recently showed that the relationship will not be changing any time soon. Just like many before him, Biden is too afraid of the right wing Israeli lobbies. This is what the establishment is like.

That said, U.S. did recently change their tune with Saudi Arabia, by giving them an ultimatum, and now we're seeing them engaging and negotiating with Iran, which is part of the entangled dynamic in the Middle East.

We are seeing more U.S. politician break away from the official line when it comes to Israel. Bernie is not a lone voice anymore:

Iran's role

Even though the crippling sanctions against Iran has hurt the government, it has hurt the Iranian people more. The Iranian government, as terrible as it is, knows that it needs trade and an agreement, eventually. Kind of like how the Jordanian and Egyptian governments were brought under control, through economic incentives, the same can happen in Iran. Through the market, can others grow strength and power. The power will continue to shift from the mullah's who, just like many politicians around the world, count on the status quo, and resist any change, in order to stay in power. Once you have access to different markets, you will see the emergence of individuals and companies, and a shift away from the old mullahs.

The PR Battle

Israel is losing support in the West. With information flowing easier, outside of the mainstream media, which has to adhere to parent companies and ad money, we are getting a lot more information coming from the occupied territories.

Even the mainstream is starting to show balls, and speak against Israel's blatant violation of human rights:

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by marcus

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Infidel Dog said:

This wasn't the first time I've seen you defend him.

I guess eventually though, even you will have to admit some day it's hard to believe the guy ever won anything. (Myself, I still say, impossible.)

I defend against the idea that he's responsible for everything under the sun because he's been in power for five months.  And I'll always defend him as a person and a president against those who support that incompetent scumbag Trump and want him back.

[CITIZEN_2015]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

 

Israel has never been at war with Iran,

 

Yes very true. As I said, Israel only attacks the weak and defenseless not the powerful who can hit back bad.

It is incredible that you allege that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties when MOST of dead are civilians in recent (and all previous) Israeli attacks. The truth is they don't care about Arab lives women and children included neither does Hama but the latter is officially recognized as a terrorist organization but the former is not, yet. That is because they have powerful lobby groups in both US and Europe.

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, marcus said:

 

Iran's role

Even though the crippling sanctions against Iran has hurt the government, it has hurt the Iranian people more. The Iranian government, as terrible as it is, knows that it needs trade and an agreement, eventually. Kind of like how the Jordanian and Egyptian governments were brought under control, through economic incentives, the same can happen in Iran. Through the market, can others grow strength and power. The power will continue to shift from the mullah's who, just like many politicians around the world, count on the status quo, and resist any change, in order to stay in power. Once you have access to different markets, you will see the emergence of individuals and companies, and a shift away from the old mullahs.

 

 

No, the mullahs will never allow prosperity for Iran nation. They saw what happened when the Shah allowed prosperity and freedom. A violent revolution. Iran is susceptible now much more for a violent revolution than 40 years ago as the hate for mullahs among Iran nation now is 100 times than that of the Shah 40 years ago. They can only stay in power with mass imprisonment, fear and executions tightly controlling every aspect of nation's pulse. It will however come to an end. No murderous regime stay in power forever. They are not more powerful than Adopt Hitler or Russian tsars or the Bolsheviks regimes who replaced them.

[Army Guy]

32 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes very true. As I said, Israel only attacks the weak and defenseless not the powerful who can hit back bad.

It is incredible that you allege that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties when MOST of dead are civilians in recent (and all previous) Israeli attacks. The truth is they don't care about Arab lives women and children included neither does Hama but the latter is officially recognized as a terrorist organization but the former is not, yet. That is because they have powerful lobby groups in both US and Europe.

I would say history shows a very different tale, of course there were all those conflicts with the power houses of the middle east and with all of them, at once..., but thats ancient history right...Israel did phone each house hold and give them warning did they not...did Hamas phone anyone....just asking...

Here is a fact in a conflict those that suffer the most are civilians... even with all the rules of war, the innocent are always going to suffer the most...why does this surprise anyone.... One side is doing this killing of civilians to make a political point....(Hamas) hence the terrorist's classification, Israel is not doing this to make a political point. 

[Infidel Dog]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

I defend against the idea that he's responsible for everything under the sun because he's been in power for five months.

The only way you can consider Biden is any kind of competent is if you're alleging he's intentionally trying to destroy America. Then you could call what he's done so far a great success. And he did most of it in 4 months. He didn't even need the full five. But go ahead defend that if you like. Personally I'm against it.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[CITIZEN_2015]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I would say history shows a very different tale, of course there were all those conflicts with the power houses of the middle east and with all of them, at once..., but thats ancient history right...Israel did phone each house hold and give them warning did they not...did Hamas phone anyone....just asking...

Here is a fact in a conflict those that suffer the most are civilians... even with all the rules of war, the innocent are always going to suffer the most...why does this surprise anyone.... One side is doing this killing of civilians to make a political point....(Hamas) hence the terrorist's classification, Israel is not doing this to make a political point. 

Nobody argues about Hamas being a terrorist organization. The point is that Israel is as well. They are an oppressive occupying force in occupied territories and randomly attack and kill civilians. Surely you don't believe that they call every household before they bombed and destroyed it, How could they possibly know which house their airplanes are going to bomb from the air from a distance?. They called the AP before bombing and that was pure propaganda on the part of Israelis.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Yes very true. As I said, Israel only attacks the weak and defenseless not the powerful who can hit back bad.

This is stupid. As I've already pointed out, Israel has had many wars against its neighbors. It almost lost one, when hit by a surprise attack. Its always been outnumbered and always prevailed. 

Quote

It is incredible that you allege that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties when MOST of dead are civilians

Any military action in a heavily built up area is going to have lots of civilian casualties. Its unavoidable. Especially when their government puts its money into offensive weapons like rockets instead of shelters. But if you compare civilian casualties in Gaza with civilian casualties in Yemen, Syria or Iraq they're quite low.

As I already pointed out, the UN thinks there were roughly 3,000 Palestinian civilian casualties in the last 20 years vs 200,000 in Syria. The UN puts the death toll to date in Yemen at 230,000. That ought to tell anyone the difference between a country striving to minimize casualties and ones who don't care. 

As for the palestinians - even the UN, which goes out of its way to ignore Palestinian war crimes, was finally forced to admit that they were not only storing rockets in UN schools, but firing them from there. They don't care about casualties. Even children. Western television news showing lots of dead Palestinian kids is GOOD for them.

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Argus

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Nobody argues about Hamas being a terrorist organization. The point is that Israel is as well. They are an oppressive occupying force in occupied territories and randomly attack and kill civilians. Surely you don't believe that they call every household before they bombed and destroyed it, How could they possibly know which house their airplanes are going to bomb from the air from a distance?. They called the AP before bombing and that was pure propaganda on the part of Israelis.

Not sure what to say here, Hamas is a terrorist organization, we both agree , in fact i think everyone agrees, and yet some how we are or should show some compassion towards them or the people that support known terrorists groups, i don't think so Tim... your free to do what ever you want, me i support Israel and their right to defend their nation and people from any known terrorist group and the people that support them...

fact one , their is NO Israelis forces in the GAZA strip as we speak, it is an independent state with it's own government...  you can't be an oppressive occupying force if your not actually in their country to be an OCCUPYING FORCE... 

fact two, Hamas started this latest conflict by provoking Israel, or did you miss that fact in all the media sites...Hamas and has since fired 800 rockets into Israel" targeted at Israelis civilians....killing women and children. What in your mind would be an acceptable retaliation, a note from mom saying sorry, maybe walking in there to the Gaza strip and killing the same amount of random people, a tit for tat....or unrestricted warfare.... That is the problem that Israel has been battling this PR game for ages... it is trying to deter the terrorist from continuing to kill not only Israelis but Palestinians as well... so when it uses fighter aircraft or ground based arty or ground troops ... liberals around the world get upset, it is so unfair, they are retaliating in a much more aggressive way....Do you think any Israelis cares what you or any other  liberal around the world thinks what is fair or not.... you or your children are not living this night mare everyday or night...

Israel has very little options in their response, one would be a tit for tat a killing for a killing, next totally shut the Gaza strip off from the rest of the world, and starve it out or one would be an out right invasion that destroys everything Hamas. one day Israel is going to say f*** the rest of the world and it will destroy everything that threatens its existence or safety....These attacks are far greater in scope than any other, Israel is determined to kill off as many terrorist as possible. they have changed up their tactics, and this might end up with ground forces going in to route out the rest of the bad guys....

How could they know which house, it is simple they already have a list of targets via ground intel, air intel, drones, etc, In Afghanistan we could trace cell phone, Sat phone, computer activity  calls in seconds, that was 20 years ago....so yes i do believe they have phoned before hand, or the list of dead would be in the thousands, not hundreds, most of these buildings are being used to house Hamas or their wpns or launch sites .. after all most of them are multi floor buildings that house hundreds of people where did they all go ? on holidays in the south .... todays Airforce wpns are capable of putting a bomb through a kitchen window from many thousand of feet in the air... so putting one in the center of a high rise building would be easy....

It is funny that everyone is still having this conversation, Give them their land back and government and there will be no more fighting....well here we are today, they have self government , they have the land back, what are the complaining about today....they don't need an excuse they are programed from an early age to fight Israel at any cost, until they are driven to the sea... 

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

This is stupid. As I've already pointed out, Israel has had many wars against its neighbors. It almost lost one, when hit by a surprise attack. Its always been outnumbered and always prevailed. 

Any military action in a heavily built up area is going to have lots of civilian casualties. Its unavoidable. Especially when their government puts its money into offensive weapons like rockets instead of shelters. But if you compare civilian casualties in Gaza with civilian casualties in Yemen, Syria or Iraq they're quite low.

As I already pointed out, the UN thinks there were roughly 3,000 Palestinian civilian casualties in the last 20 years vs 200,000 in Syria. The UN puts the death toll to date in Yemen at 230,000. That ought to tell anyone the difference between a country striving to minimize casualties and ones who don't care. 

As for the palestinians - even the UN, which goes out of its way to ignore Palestinian war crimes, was finally forced to admit that they were not only storing rockets in UN schools, but firing them from there. They don't care about casualties. Even children. Western television news showing lots of dead Palestinian kids is GOOD for them.

https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/

 

What is stupid here is the fact that you allege Israel is a good guy because they kill hundreds instead of thousands of civilians and then you compare them against murderous elements like Hamas nd mullahs' murderous regime and say then they are good guys because they are less evil relative to most evil regimes.

Edited May 19, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

34 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

 

It is funny that everyone is still having this conversation, Give them their land back and government and there will be no more fighting....well here we are today, they have self government , they have the land back, what are the complaining about today....they don't need an excuse they are programed from an early age to fight Israel at any cost, until they are driven to the sea... 

The land they want back is now state of Israel where Tel Aviv and Haifa are located not small strip of Gaza. They used to live there 80 years ago and some were terrorized into leaving and became refugees in Jordan and Egypt for decades now. Nobody wanted them even their Arab brothers because they have corrupt pro-American regimes like Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt or murderous regimes like Syria and Libya.

Edited May 19, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Army Guy]

So now the goal posts have moved, OK, so what date are we allowed to go back to, i say that because the Jews have a long history in the region and once had lands of their own... And i agree, they some Palestinians were for the most part forced off their lands but most fled the violence after things changed in the conflict, the Muslims where lossing on all sides...., but my question is why where they forced of their lands or why did they flee ?... history paints a clear picture and it does not serve Palestinians well and the Israelis tactics where also violent, but they where fighting for their existence right....

and you can't use the excuse of of them not being American back regimes 80, years ago, Once Israel declared itself an independent state, most if not all Muslim middle eastern nations rose up and combined forces to wipe them out, including our nomad friends that now call themselves Palestinians. So from day one Israel has been  threaten by it's neighbors in all directions.

Lets not forget who decided to give the Jews their own land for their nation, and how large the first land plot was, and because of the disruption the Muslims caused , the entire plan  changed to became a slice down version of what it is today... 1 /10 of the original size...

Edited May 19, 2021 by Army Guy

[Argus]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

What is stupid here is the fact that you allege Israel is a good guy because they kill hundreds instead of thousands of civilians and then you compare them against murderous elements like Hamas nd mullahs' murderous regime and say then they are good guys because they are less evil relative to most evil regimes.

What, exactly do you want them to do when thousands of rockets are being fired at them? 

[Infidel Dog]

So the argument here seems to be that Israel needs to be vilified and I'm not sure what else for the crime of being stronger and therefore capable of more damaging counter-attacks than those attacking it.

And this seems to equate into Israel sucks. Get Israel.

Here's a digestion of the argument against that:

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

The same guy has a more detailed and entertaining with animation, longer history of the conflict.

If anybody's interested in the history:

 

[-TSS-]

As there is talk in many countries including Canada about changing their electoral system to proportional representation if you want to campaign against such a change you should mention Israel where a lot of tiny parties hold the balance of power and demand various things in return for supporting fragile multi-party governments.

[Michael Hardner]

Honest question: Did Israel target a desalinization plant ?  Power infrastructure ?  Former Cdn Ambassador on CBC Radio now seemed to say so.

Why ?  

I do believe Hamas uses human shields, and I also believe Israel chooses not to crush Palestine but what is the strategy behind making the people suffer through infrastructure loss ?

[Infidel Dog]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Honest question: Did Israel target a desalinization plant ?  Power infrastructure ?  Former Cdn Ambassador on CBC Radio now seemed to say so.

Why ?  

I do believe Hamas uses human shields, and I also believe Israel chooses not to crush Palestine but what is the strategy behind making the people suffer through infrastructure loss ?

The former Cdn. Ambassador has been listening to fake news:

https://honestreporting.ca/ctv-reporter-misleads-viewers-into-believing-israel-blocked-aid-to-gaza/

Not his fault I guess...unless he's a Liberal. In which case CTV told their lies then scurried off to cash the check the Hamas favoring Canadian Liberals gave them so it's all the same thing. In this case lies are fungible. They're all shared from the same pot.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Infidel Dog

[Infidel Dog]

Sounds like Iran peeked from behind their Hamas mask a bit ago:

Quote

The planned truce came after Iranian forces allegedly launched an armed suicide drone into Israel as forces rushed to intercept it at the border.

Netanyahu branded Tehran "patrons of terror" after claiming a drone laden with explosives shot down this week had been sent by Iran.

He believes it was launched from either Iraq or Syria after being brought down by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in the early hours of Tuesday morning.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/2928964/donald-trump-weak-biden-israel-gaza-conflict-hamas/

[Argus]

On 5/19/2021 at 4:42 PM, Infidel Dog said:

So the argument here seems to be that Israel needs to be vilified and I'm not sure what else for the crime of being stronger and therefore capable of more damaging counter-attacks than those attacking it.

And this seems to equate into Israel sucks. Get Israel.

A lot of these people dwell on the fact Palestinian casualties are much higher while ignoring the fact Israel works very hard to protect its civilians and Hamas does the opposite. Hamas WANTS heavy civilian casualties so they can show it to the western media so soft-hearted, soft-headed liberals in the West will hate Israel. Hamas doesn't dig bomb shelters. Instead it locates its rockets in schools and hospitals and fires rockets from the middle of residential areas. Of course Palestinian casualties are going to be higher!

Israel is being condemned as immoral because they try to protect their people, while Hamas is the victim because it let's its people die. Think about that for a moment as the epitome of the ignorant, emotional liberal mindset.

[Infidel Dog]

Anti-Semitic Palestinian Factions are Openly Attacking Jews in the Streets of America

It's been happening in Canada too.

[Army Guy]

i wonder what would happen when the Jews decide to protect themselves in the US and Canada...the left is going to go ballistic...

[Michael Hardner]

49 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

i wonder what would happen when the Jews decide to protect themselves in the US and Canada...the left is going to go ballistic...

How ?  Vigilante justice ?  

[DogOnPorch]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

How ?  Vigilante justice ?  

 

What's vigilante justice? Don't you want a world without police?

[CITIZEN_2015]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

A lot of these people dwell on the fact Palestinian casualties are much higher while ignoring the fact Israel works very hard to protect its civilians and Hamas does the opposite. Hamas WANTS heavy civilian casualties so they can show it to the western media so soft-hearted, soft-headed liberals in the West will hate Israel. Hamas doesn't dig bomb shelters. Instead it locates its rockets in schools and hospitals and fires rockets from the middle of residential areas. Of course Palestinian casualties are going to be higher!

Israel is being condemned as immoral because they try to protect their people, while Hamas is the victim because it let's its people die. Think about that for a moment as the epitome of the ignorant, emotional liberal mindset.

Yes we got it. Israel is not as bad as Hamas.  Also Ted Bundy didn't murder as many as Hitler did. I guess in your book he is an angel?

Edited May 22, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015