1 in 5 students attending post-secondary in Canada are international students

[Moonlight Graham]

That's a lot.  In fact, in 2019 there were 642,000 international students in Canada.  The 2 largest countries of origin are India and China.

Tuition for international students isn't subsidized by the gov, so the schools make a lot of money.  It's basically an industry.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-number-of-chinese-students-in-canada-plunges-by-44-per-cent

Is this good for the country?  Economic benefits worth it?  One of the problems is security from countries like China where students can be involved in Canadian research and be involved in espionage.  I would think that's a small minority of the overall students though.  Some come to study and then try to get their permanent residence after they graduate, others go back home.

[OftenWrong]

Yes it's true that universities get a lot more money for foreign students tuition. There is a limit to how many foreign students they are allowed to enrol, not sure what though. But you can bet that means they fill it up to maximum that is possible.

Tuition fees are high, as are living expenses. Certain things like education should be accessible without barriers like cost, considering how much Candians already pay in their taxes. Too "progressive" an idea, I guess.

[CITIZEN_2015]

They pay a hefty fee so i don't think it is a burden on tax payer (though i wished their counties of origin were not India or china) however, I dispute your figures. You say there are 642,000 international students in Canada and you say 1 in 5 students are foreign which based on your figures we have 3 million post secondary students in Canada!!!!!, 

Edited May 8, 2021 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Is this good for the country?  Economic benefits worth it? 

No, and no. Its bad for the country on several levels. Just to start we have large numbers of immigrant kids in schools we need to assimilate. Their numbers are so high it's getting harder to do that since they are exposed to Canadians less and naturally will hang out with people from their country and language group. Add in huge numbers of foreign kids and that just becomes worse.

Then theres the education of Canadian kids. That already suffers in a classroom filled with immigrant kids whose language and literacy skills are low compared to real English speakers. Teachers have to slow things down and give more attention to those who can't understand, leaving those who do bored. Bring in yet more foreign kids and that just gets worse.

Not to mention all of this does nothing good for creating a spirit of shared culture, values and traditions among kids.

[myata]

If it served the good of the society it could be useful as a part of the solution. And the good of the society in this century is free, effective, top quality and continuous education for all citizens. Now look how close we are to the goal. Tuition is outrageous and as every single "public service" here it creeps up every single year.

So just schools making a ton of money off foreign students and rewarding themselves for routine and mediocre instruction is not an obvious benefit in itself. And now there are facts to confirm that. In early 2020 over a billion of taxpayer funds was given for cutting edge rapid epidemics research, and where are the results? What did the society get for its investment? Without responsibility and accountability with every bureaucracy there's a risk that it'll function for its own benefit rather than that of the society.

[Aristides]

Just looked up tuition fees for UBC. An applied science student pays around 7K. An international student pays 38K.

International students are subsidizing Canadian students so the question is, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes not to have international students?

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

No, and no. Its bad for the country on several levels. Just to start we have large numbers of immigrant kids in schools we need to assimilate. Their numbers are so high it's getting harder to do that since they are exposed to Canadians less and naturally will hang out with people from their country and language group. Add in huge numbers of foreign kids and that just becomes worse.

Then theres the education of Canadian kids. That already suffers in a classroom filled with immigrant kids whose language and literacy skills are low compared to real English speakers. Teachers have to slow things down and give more attention to those who can't understand, leaving those who do bored. Bring in yet more foreign kids and that just gets worse.

Not to mention all of this does nothing good for creating a spirit of shared culture, values and traditions among kids.

I'm not waving pom-poms for immigration here, I'm mostly neutral on the topic, but I don't think that there's a problem with educated people assimilating at all, or any reasonable amount of immigration with proper screening for that matter.

Sikhs aren't a small minority where I live and I think that the young generation takes to Canadian culture like ducks to water. There are a lot of them in our local baseball teams, and they even have a Punjabi-speaking hockey broadcast for the Canucks (who I don't cheer for - I bet that they love to get our boy Jujhar Khaira on the Canucks lol. Too bad, so sad.) 

In fact, if we could swap sikhs for liberals I'd be all over it. (That's not saying much though, I'd swap in some Taliban for liberals.) 

The people most affected by immigration imo are ones who are scrambling to afford housing. I feel really bad for any nth generation Canadians who don't have their foot in the door of the real estate market because it's getting tougher all the time.

With the ridiculous cost of lumber now we might actually need to pause immigration - no one can afford to build at $100 for a sheet of plywood. 

[Moonlight Graham]

9 hours ago, Argus said:

No, and no. Its bad for the country on several levels. Just to start we have large numbers of immigrant kids in schools we need to assimilate. Their numbers are so high it's getting harder to do that since they are exposed to Canadians less and naturally will hang out with people from their country and language group. Add in huge numbers of foreign kids and that just becomes worse.

Well then there's this:

https://ocdsb.ca/continuing_education/international_languages_program

https://www.tcdsb.org/ProgramsServices/SchoolProgramsK12/InternationalLanguages/Pages/integrated-programs.aspx

https://www.tcdsb.org/programsservices/schoolprogramsk12/internationallanguages/pages/default.aspx

[Moonlight Graham]

10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They pay a hefty fee so i don't think it is a burden on tax payer (though i wished their counties of origin were not India or china) however, I dispute your figures. You say there are 642,000 international students in Canada and you say 1 in 5 students are foreign which based on your figures we have 3 million post secondary students in Canada!!!!!, 

I'm just quoting the numbers from the article I posted.

 

[Aristides]

10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

They pay a hefty fee so i don't think it is a burden on tax payer (though i wished their counties of origin were not India or china) however, I dispute your figures. You say there are 642,000 international students in Canada and you say 1 in 5 students are foreign which based on your figures we have 3 million post secondary students in Canada!!!!!, 

There also a ton of foreign secondary school students in Canada.

[ron Young]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

No, and no. Its bad for the country on several levels. Just to start we have large numbers of immigrant kids in schools we need to assimilate. Their numbers are so high it's getting harder to do that since they are exposed to Canadians less and naturally will hang out with people from their country and language group. Add in huge numbers of foreign kids and that just becomes worse.

Then theres the education of Canadian kids. That already suffers in a classroom filled with immigrant kids whose language and literacy skills are low compared to real English speakers. Teachers have to slow things down and give more attention to those who can't understand, leaving those who do bored. Bring in yet more foreign kids and that just gets worse.

Not to mention all of this does nothing good for creating a spirit of shared culture, values and traditions among kids.

That might just be the most ignorant diatribe I have read on this site in quite some time. My kids all learned a great deal from the kids in their classes from other countries. Then again they get their open mind from both parents. What actually happened to you?

[myata]

14 hours ago, Aristides said:

International students are subsidizing Canadian students so the question is, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes not to have international students?

Such a vivid illustration of what is wrong with the benevolent bureaucracy idea. You see, nothing can be done to improve the status quo, real positive change is impossible, improving efficiency and reducing costs? reducing tuition or making it free in most cases? forget it! And so what we should do is more and more of the same, ignore deficiencies and failures and hope that it'll work out somehow. Please be informed that next year the tuition is going up by x%. At some point in the near future it can hit 10K (what, already?) most students working minimal wage jobs housing extra.

But the efficiency of the bureaucracy left to itself without any checks or feedback is bound to diminish. It's going to produce less, of lower quality and at ever rising cost to the society. This is not a theory it is happening right before our eyes. Public billions invested in the US and UK, vaccines. Public billions spent in Canada, nothing.

Last year I happened to be at an online pandemic graduation. The lecture was next to literal copy of the last year, achievement-progress, boldly go and make it! No emergency assistance programs. No special employment arrangements for new grads in the next to zero job market. Like anything changed, like anyone noticed. Life is good, just go!

Sure, let's do more of the same and hope, somehow.

[PIK]

2 hours ago, ron Young said:

That might just be the most ignorant diatribe I have read on this site in quite some time. My kids all learned a great deal from the kids in their classes from other countries. Then again they get their open mind from both parents. What actually happened to you?

What your kids may have learned is irrelevant, we are losing our country. And maybe the children should be learning our own history and traditions instead of someone elses.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Such a vivid illustration of what is wrong with the benevolent bureaucracy idea. You see, nothing can be done to improve the status quo, real positive change is impossible, improving efficiency and reducing costs? reducing tuition or making it free in most cases? forget it! And so what we should do is more and more of the same, ignore deficiencies and failures and hope that it'll work out somehow. Please be informed that next year the tuition is going up by x%. At some point in the near future it can hit 10K (what, already?) most students working minimal wage jobs housing extra.

But the efficiency of the bureaucracy left to itself without any checks or feedback is bound to diminish. It's going to produce less, of lower quality and at ever rising cost to the society. This is not a theory it is happening right before our eyes. Public billions invested in the US and UK, vaccines. Public billions spent in Canada, nothing.

Last year I happened to be at an online pandemic graduation. The lecture was next to literal copy of the last year, achievement-progress, boldly go and make it! No emergency assistance programs. No special employment arrangements for new grads in the next to zero job market. Like anything changed, like anyone noticed. Life is good, just go!

Sure, let's do more of the same and hope, somehow.

If you do the arithmetic, if you got rid of that one international student, you would have to increase the tuition of the five Canadian students to 13K in order to make up for the lost revenue from the foreign student. That’s almost doubling their present tuition. How much are you prepared to be taxed in order to keep tuitions down?
 

I get a kick out of people who think we could make things free if only they were more efficient. Schools have to compete for talent and infrastructure to make them attractive just like any other businesses. The good students will go there because of the quality of the product.

[myata]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

I get a kick out of people who think we could make things free if only they were more efficient. Schools have to compete for talent and infrastructure to make them attractive just like any other businesses. The good students will go there because of the quality of the product.

It must be a big surprise to you that many countries in Europe have free university education. How many international students we would have to invite to achieve that, next to infinity? Wait, one has to try something different to obtain a different result, not so? And "different" in this case would include focus on and accountability for the result and output, not just automatic x% annual rise no matter what.

[Aristides]

6 minutes ago, myata said:

It must be a big surprise to you that many countries in Europe have free university education. How many international students we would have to invite to achieve that, next to infinity? Wait, one has to try something different to obtain a different result, not so? And "different" in this case would include focus on and accountability for the result and output, not just automatic x% annual rise no matter what.

Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. The question is whether Canadians are willing to absorb the added tax burden which would eliminate tuition fees.

[Argus]

6 hours ago, ron Young said:

That might just be the most ignorant diatribe I have read on this site in quite some time. My kids all learned a great deal from the kids in their classes from other countries. Then again they get their open mind from both parents. What actually happened to you?

First. That wasnt a diatribe. In fact your response would be much more aptly defined as one. It's nice your kids learned something from the foreigners in school. They're supposed to be learning from the teachers, however.

Second, your mind is clearly the furthest thing from "open". It seems rigidly locked tight and ready to fume and fulminate at the slightest indication someone might have a different world view. 

[Argus]

18 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. The question is whether Canadians are willing to absorb the added tax burden which would eliminate tuition fees.

For doctors and engineers, perhaps. For gender studies and ethnic studies;nope.

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Aristides said:

If you do the arithmetic, if you got rid of that one international student, you would have to increase the tuition of the five Canadian students to 13K in order to make up for the lost revenue from the foreign student. That’s almost doubling their present tuition. How much are you prepared to be taxed in order to keep tuitions down?

I presume you're speaking of universities here. Might I suggest that were it not for the ballooning ranks of high paid non-teaching positions they could lose the foreign students and still lower tuitions?

[ron Young]

7 hours ago, PIK said:

What your kids may have learned is irrelevant, we are losing our country. And maybe the children should be learning our own history and traditions instead of someone elses.

No it isn't really. Since you know they will be running the place in a few short years. Our children learn our history and thanks to immigrant children they may also get to learn a new perspective on that history. Hey it is a free country you can feel free to stay dumb.

[ron Young]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

First. That wasnt a diatribe. In fact your response would be much more aptly defined as one. It's nice your kids learned something from the foreigners in school. They're supposed to be learning from the teachers, however.

Second, your mind is clearly the furthest thing from "open". It seems rigidly locked tight and ready to fume and fulminate at the slightest indication someone might have a different world view. 

Ummmmm your views are anything but worldy. Learning comes from many differant sources if you let it. Railing against the evils of immigrant children in school could most certainly be considered a diatribe. Me calling it out as such quite honestly can't be.

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, ron Young said:

Ummmmm your views are anything but worldy. Learning comes from many differant sources if you let it. Railing against the evils of immigrant children in school could most certainly be considered a diatribe. Me calling it out as such quite honestly can't be.

I didn't  "rail" over anything. I simply answered a question. My opinion seems to have made you wroth with righteous indignation- thus your rant. Nor did I say anything about "the evils of immigrant children". That's simply your woke interpretation.

What I pointed out was that with the huge numbers of immigrant kids in schools - who often have imperfect English - adding still more people with poor language skills would inevitable slow down the teacher. This would seem rather obvious but I know you woke types are rarely interested in logic. 

[ron Young]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

I didn't  "rail" over anything. I simply answered a question. My opinion seems to have made you wroth with righteous indignation- thus your rant. Nor did I say anything about "the evils of immigrant children". That's simply your woke interpretation.

What I pointed out was that with the huge numbers of immigrant kids in schools - who often have imperfect English - adding still more people with poor language skills would inevitable slow down the teacher. This would seem rather obvious but I know you woke types are rarely interested in logic. 

Awwwe yes the old tired "woke" trope. Don't you folks ever get tired of being unwoke?

[myata]

19 hours ago, Aristides said:

Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it. The question is whether Canadians are willing to absorb the added tax burden which would eliminate tuition fees.

That's a given and an intelligent patron also asks themselves what are they paying for? Is it for a bureaucracy with bottomless budget appetites and mediocre if not substandard results? Or for a top-quality, transparent and efficient social necessity in a modern society? Not the same thing as one can observe very clearly.

The bureaucracy knows only one strategy, copy what worked in the past and hope it would work out somehow. Immigrants work hard and pay high taxes bring in more immigrants. Foreign students pay high tuition, just bring in more and forget everything else. Is it sustainable though? Is it going to work in this century for the whole of the society? The bureaucracy wouldn't care because it could not: it's thinking horizon is limited to from here to the pension, a few decades at best. If it works somehow, it's good enough. Is it though? What would the tuition be in a Canadian university ten years from now, with 2-3% annual increase? Would the minimum wage raise 30% too? Don't ask that of the government, they would be one of the last ones to care.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, myata said:

That's a given and an intelligent patron also asks themselves what are they paying for? Is it for a bureaucracy with bottomless budget appetites and mediocre if not substandard results? Or for a top-quality, transparent and efficient social necessity in a modern society? Not the same thing as one can observe very clearly.

The bureaucracy knows only one strategy, copy what worked in the past and hope it would work out somehow. Immigrants work hard and pay high taxes bring in more immigrants. Foreign students pay high tuition, just bring in more and forget everything else. Is it sustainable though? Is it going to work in this century for the whole of the society? The bureaucracy wouldn't care because it could not: it's thinking horizon is limited to from here to the pension, a few decades at best. If it works somehow, it's good enough. Is it though? What would the tuition be in a Canadian university ten years from now, with 2-3% annual increase? Would the minimum wage raise 30% too? Don't ask that of the government, they would be one of the last ones to care.

Sure.