Why do Canadians keep supporting this error-prone government?

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, ron Young said:

Yes in fact I can and I do. Otoole is a bay st lawyer who took a free ride through law school whilst shooting blanks. Then spent 10 yrs on Bay st dry humping average Canadians for big corporations so they could A: Park their cash offshore B : pay themselves grotesque bonus chqs while laying off Canadians.

Scheer surely showed his true colours on the way out the door. How you wanna spin that?

WOW, while that makes everything even in your eyes, your right those cons are as dirty as fuc*, are we suppose forgive and forget now....that some how Justin is not that bad, at what point are you going to wake up and decide that maybe Justin has gone to far.... i get it you took the red pill, and lost your moral compass.  But if you have not seen that yet, then not sure what you bring to the table here, and this conversation turns into  a she said he said. I'm looking for facts that back your boys actions ?

[dialamah]

On 5/6/2021 at 4:49 PM, Army Guy said:

WOW, while that makes everything even in your eyes, your right those cons are as dirty as fuc*, are we suppose forgive and forget now....that some how Justin is not that bad, at what point are you going to wake up and decide that maybe Justin has gone to far.... i get it you took the red pill, and lost your moral compass.  But if you have not seen that yet, then not sure what you bring to the table here, and this conversation turns into  a she said he said. I'm looking for facts that back your boys actions ?

You're a nice guy, AG, one of my favorite posters even though we disagree a lot.  But your partisanship misleads you, imo.  I used to think JT was who he said he was, but he's no better than Harper or Mulroney or Chretien.  O'Toole is an idiot; too bad.  I'd like to think there's some incorruptible politician out there, who really would work for all Canadians, but I think our system works against it.  Too much too lose in four years; they all have to play the game - satisfy the money.    But even worse is an unlimited term, because then there's no accountability at all.  

And you know, it's not a matter of morality - whether one is liberal or conservative, its just a different way of solving problems.  Accusing someone of 'losing their moral compass' because they have a different political ideology is just sad, really.  

[OftenWrong]

8 hours ago, dialamah said:

But your partisanship misleads you, imo. 

O'Toole is an idiot; too bad.

O'toole's an idiot already, though he hasn't done anything yet... Good thing your partisanship doesn't mislead you.

Man, you are a piece of work...  

[ron Young]

21 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

O'toole's an idiot already, though he hasn't done anything yet... Good thing your partisanship doesn't mislead you.

Man, you are a piece of work...  

He got his law degree on our dime. He spent 10 yrs on bay st lawyering for fat cat corps so they could A: park cash offshore to avoid taxes B: layoff Canadian workers so they could produce their crap in the 3rd world. 

He then moved into politics and wound up in Harpers cabinet where he proceeded to dry fork our vets. Remember having them prove they still were missing limbs? That's our buddy Otoole. Let's not even look at his fathers legacy in provincial politics. 

Perhaps you should inform yourself a wee bit more before making such general statements.

[dialamah]

On 5/8/2021 at 6:31 AM, OftenWrong said:

O'toole's an idiot already, though he hasn't done anything yet... Good thing your partisanship doesn't mislead you.

Man, you are a piece of work...  

Well, I had some hope for him - although I was always concerned about the support of the social conservatives given how fanatical they are about disenfranchising anyone who doesn't fit their mould of a proper human being.  But still, I didn't want to believe everything I heard on the media about how O'Toole hated gays, yada yada yada.  

But then he started talking about how he'd immediately start removing the federal benefits provided to support people through Covid-19, leaving it all to the Provinces - dumb, imo.  He decided Alberta needed 'special' treatment to continue their ravaging of environment for oil, dumb, imo.  He wants to defund the CBC, and follow the time-unproven "Crack down on criminals" agenda.  And, most important for me, he wasn't even able to get his party to agree that climate change is a serious issue.  Anti-climate change attitudes are not the way to a successful political party in Canada.  If O'Toole had been able to persuade his party to accept that climate change is an issue, he'd still be a viable candidate in my eyes, even with the other issues.

So yeah, I looked at him and was not impressed.  If he got elected, he probably wouldn't be any worse than Trudeau, but as I'm looking for something better - I'm not going to vote for him.

 

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, ron Young said:

He got his law degree on our dime. He spent 10 yrs on bay st lawyering for fat cat corps so they could A: park cash offshore to avoid taxes B: layoff Canadian workers so they could produce their crap in the 3rd world. 

He then moved into politics and wound up in Harpers cabinet where he proceeded to dry fork our vets. Remember having them prove they still were missing limbs? That's our buddy Otoole. Let's not even look at his fathers legacy in provincial politics. 

Perhaps you should inform yourself a wee bit more before making such general statements.

So you mean he worked hard all his life and was involved in lots of things? Any child-molestations?

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

So yeah, I looked at him and was not impressed.  If he got elected, he probably wouldn't be any worse than Trudeau, but as I'm looking for something better - I'm not going to vote for him.

You make it sound like Canadians are looking for a party leader to save us from Justin Trudeau. They expected the same from Andy Scheer. Next up and bound to disappoint is Mr. O'Toole. Despite this desire to be saved, polls still show Trudeau will continue as PM, and with a possible majority. Why that is, is a good question...

[PIK]

I will take the idiot who has worked, has put his life on the line, over our part time teacher, racist , misogynist PM.

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, ron Young said:

Let's not even look at his fathers legacy in provincial politics. 

Well I don't know if I would blame the son for the sins of the father, in general. That's a little too much Judging someone by what their fore-fathers did. It is in vogue these days however, as neo-liberal thing.

Social warriors pride themselves in not being biased or racist. I for one am sick of their glaring hypocrisy. So are a lot of Canadians...

We are here, get used to it.  

 

 

[dialamah]

23 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Why that is, is a good question...

Because so far, the Conservative party has not presented an alternative most Canadians consider viable.  "Better the devil you know, then the devil you don't", especially when that devil is supported by religious fundamentalists and an anti-science minority.  Consider: if someone calls themselves a proud Conservative, cuts off contact with me when they find out an I'm an atheist because they "can't be associated with a communist", how is that supposed to engender confidence in their party?  I can understand that perhaps most conservatives aren't that extreme, but such people are a significant part of the Conservative core support group.  And of course, that real-life person is echoed on this forum by such as you, and others, who think that because I have progressive views, I'm a communist, a traitor to Canada, hates Canada, wants to destroy Canada.  How stupid is that?   How can I trust a party that has such vitriol among it's adherents?

I spend time on both conservative and liberal spaces online; both have their extremists.  But the worst vitriol comes from the conservative side.  And, while conservatives can express themselves in those liberal spaces - and they'll be mocked for sure - speaking against the ideology on conservative sites isn't even allowed:  if you aren't wholeheartedly on board, you'll be literally kicked off the site.  It's so weird, when conservatives constantly pat themselves on the back for being the upholders of 'free speech'.

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, PIK said:

I will take the idiot who has worked, has put his life on the line, over our part time teacher, racist , misogynist PM.

 1.  He worked full time; no need to lie about his work history - there's enough other bad stuff you can say about him;

2.  What's wrong with a teacher, anyway?  Is there some reason a teacher can't become a Prime Minister in a free and democratic society?

[ron Young]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

So you mean he worked hard all his life and was involved in lots of things? Any child-molestations?

If that is your idea of hard work it's faulty. That's it man. Bust out some retarded conspiracy theory to make everyone take you seriously. Are you ok? Like mentally speaking? You need me to call someone?

[ron Young]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Well I don't know if I would blame the son for the sins of the father, in general. That's a little too much Judging someone by what their fore-fathers did. It is in vogue these days however, as neo-liberal thing.

Social warriors pride themselves in not being biased or racist. I for one am sick of their glaring hypocrisy. So are a lot of Canadians...

We are here, get used to it.  

 

 

You mean like folks do for our current PM and his father? Who tf is we?

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, ron Young said:

You mean like folks do for our current PM and his father? Who tf is we?

I know it's complex situation. Keep pondering the subtleties, you might figure it out eventually.

Or, maybe not.

[ron Young]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I know it's complex situation. Keep pondering the subtleties, you might figure it out eventually.

Or, maybe not.

That makes about as much sense as a paper bag full of hammers. Seems like an awfull lot of words just to say nothing lol. Would have been easier just to you know explain who the f this" we " is you spoke of?

[Nefarious Banana]

6 hours ago, ron Young said:

That makes about as much sense as a paper bag full of hammers. Seems like an awfull lot of words just to say nothing lol. Would have been easier just to you know explain who the f this" we " is you spoke of?

Your 'ox being gored' . . . . . so sad.

[GrittyLeftist]

Agreed that this Liberal government is error-prone - seems the only target they can reliably hit is their own foot, which is a neat trick considering how often it's in JT's mouth.  IMO Trudeau is in the same place Harper was in before Trudeau came on the scene - most Canadians want to move away from him, but feel they lack a credible alternative.  I completely understand anyone who doesn't see Trudeau as a serious adult, but at this point in time he is the status quo, and keeping the status quo is always the easiest thing to do, from a purely political standpoint. 

The NDP is in worse shape than maybe they think they are IMO.  Having betrayed their principles electing Mulcair to try to eat the Liberals' lunch, their "leftist" credentials are seriously tarnished, and I don't think they've really addressed this crisis at any point in time.  Singh seems likeable to most, and most of those who dislike him were never voting NDP anyway IMO, but hard for me to see them as very credible at this point in time.

The CPC has a tough circle to square.  They've been telling everyone ever since 2008 that carbon taxes are a terrible idea and that climate change either isn't real or isn't as serious as some think it is.  At this point in time their base believes this to be true as near as I can tell.  Gonna be real tough for them to put forward a climate plan that is credible to their base without alienating everyone who isn't in their base.  Less specifically, I think members of their base are more likely, all other things being equal, to subscribe to "alternative facts" (no disrespect intended here).  Very hard to lead a party when you can't even articulate premises that don't sound false to either your base or everyone else.  I think Pierre Poilievre is their most credible candidate for PM at this time.  It brings me no joy to say that, as I think PP is a more talented version of Jason Kenney - a person who gets by politically by using their superior grasp of rhetoric to befuddle the voting public into voting for things that are against their own interest.  IMO if we taught rhetoric in public school our politics would be much better.

Anyways, I am not a partisan - I vote for policies, not parties, so I don't really care what brand our PM is.  For me, every election is a search for the least repulsive option, and there is plenty of room for reasonable adults to disagree about which option is the least bad.

[PIK]

On 5/9/2021 at 2:58 PM, dialamah said:

 1.  He worked full time; no need to lie about his work history - there's enough other bad stuff you can say about him;

2.  What's wrong with a teacher, anyway?  Is there some reason a teacher can't become a Prime Minister in a free and democratic society?

Part time. The kid really did nothing. Said he did some bouncing. Actually heard a interview where he said he worked at a bar for a couple of shifts. To tough he said. 

[Nefarious Banana]

28 minutes ago, PIK said:

Part time. The kid really did nothing. Said he did some bouncing. Actually heard a interview where he said he worked at a bar for a couple of shifts. To tough he said. 

What better credentials to run a country into the ground? Canadians are so politically lazy and stupid. Nice hair! Yeah!

[Army Guy]

On 5/8/2021 at 1:31 AM, dialamah said:

You're a nice guy, AG, one of my favorite posters even though we disagree a lot.  But your partisanship misleads you, imo.  I used to think JT was who he said he was, but he's no better than Harper or Mulroney or Chretien.  O'Toole is an idiot; too bad.  I'd like to think there's some incorruptible politician out there, who really would work for all Canadians, but I think our system works against it.  Too much too lose in four years; they all have to play the game - satisfy the money.    But even worse is an unlimited term, because then there's no accountability at all.  

And you know, it's not a matter of morality - whether one is liberal or conservative, its just a different way of solving problems.  Accusing someone of 'losing their moral compass' because they have a different political ideology is just sad, really.  

I think for the most part, everyone on this forum is a nice guy or girl, there are a few on the fringes that live in the twilight zone" and both sides have them, "left and right" and to be honest your one of my favorite lefties, at least one that i can exchange ideas or debate with. As for my partisanship misleading me, your not the first to call me that, Michael said something similar,  

As for JT he is one of the worse PM ever, maybe that is my extreme dislike for the guy, but he is being judged by his deeds and actions, and no one even comes close to Justin, not even Doug ford...or Kenny... And while like most Canadians we do not have much faith or trust in any of our politicians, because we have been let down way to many times. O tool maybe an idiot, but he is an untested idiot, he could not possibly do any worse than Justin did. Justin has had his time at bat and really has not accomplished all that much.... 

I pray to the politician gods everyday that they let someone with leadership skills, solid moral values, will guide us into the future... At this point i don't care if he or she is liberal, conservative, just that they can make a decision based on facts and figures and what is best for the nation and not the polls, or what the crazy public comes up with....

I get it accusing someone of not having any moral compass is a serious accusation... but when i take a look at everyone of Justins, lies, his deceitfulness, and not just his actions but a lot of his cabinet ministers are no better, Remember " if you yell it often and loud enough the people will believe it... after she had a few drinks, for me this was a slap in the face, this is what she thought of the people that put her in office, this is what she thought of her fellow Canadians, not smart enough to see through all the crap coming out of her mouth... I'm sorry i come from a military back ground, where honor, integrity, trust, where more than just words, but a way of life...So when someone can not see what the liberal party has done, or has not done i begin to question where their moral values lie... by not calling it out it some how makes you an accomplice to it or you don't think it is worthy of discussion, either way how could someone make excuses for it or for not seeing it... I see that as being sad... and what scares the shit out of me, is that liberal voters are Ok with all of it, and would keep this guy in office for 4 more years with most likely a majority...

Edited May 13, 2021 by Army Guy

[Army Guy]

On 5/9/2021 at 7:38 AM, ron Young said:

He got his law degree on our dime. He spent 10 yrs on bay st lawyering for fat cat corps so they could A: park cash offshore to avoid taxes B: layoff Canadian workers so they could produce their crap in the 3rd world. 

He then moved into politics and wound up in Harpers cabinet where he proceeded to dry fork our vets. Remember having them prove they still were missing limbs? That's our buddy Otoole. Let's not even look at his fathers legacy in provincial politics. 

Perhaps you should inform yourself a wee bit more before making such general statements.

....And yes it was the Conservatives that took away most of the medical benefits we once enjoyed in order to save a few bucks......But today reality is Justin has been in charge for almost 6 years now, and it was a campiagn promise that has yet to be fulfilled, and has not fully restored those benefits, lets not mention all those law suits that are still pending , you know the ones Justin said he was going to fix... And after 6 years vets still need to prove limbs have not grown back.

As a vet, justin had the golden ticket to win over thousands of vets who have court cases filed against our government for benefits that most Canadians already have...... while the problem did originate with the conservatives, 6 years later it has become a broken liberal promise yet unsolved...Why can we just solve the problem and move on..., had we been on the other side, we would have been paid out in full already, but that would be fu** up right....

They are asking for more than we can give right now... with almost 400 bil spent in 2020 alone, they are still asking for more than we can provide for... 158 dead, over 2000 wounded, more than 400 plus suicides, and thousands upon thousands of PTSD cases,  and we has a nation that just recently spent close to 400 bil can not afford to take care of our vets who served this nation with no personal gain.... who have been let down by both conservative and liberal governments, but also by Canadians, who don't give a shit...Welcome to our country, where your service does not mean shit...

[ron Young]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:54 PM, Army Guy said:

I think for the most part, everyone on this forum is a nice guy or girl, there are a few on the fringes that live in the twilight zone" and both sides have them, "left and right" and to be honest your one of my favorite lefties, at least one that i can exchange ideas or debate with. As for my partisanship misleading me, your not the first to call me that, Michael said something similar,  

As for JT he is one of the worse PM ever, maybe that is my extreme dislike for the guy, but he is being judged by his deeds and actions, and no one even comes close to Justin, not even Doug ford...or Kenny... And while like most Canadians we do not have much faith or trust in any of our politicians, because we have been let down way to many times. O tool maybe an idiot, but he is an untested idiot, he could not possibly do any worse than Justin did. Justin has had his time at bat and really has not accomplished all that much.... 

I pray to the politician gods everyday that they let someone with leadership skills, solid moral values, will guide us into the future... At this point i don't care if he or she is liberal, conservative, just that they can make a decision based on facts and figures and what is best for the nation and not the polls, or what the crazy public comes up with....

I get it accusing someone of not having any moral compass is a serious accusation... but when i take a look at everyone of Justins, lies, his deceitfulness, and not just his actions but a lot of his cabinet ministers are no better, Remember " if you yell it often and loud enough the people will believe it... after she had a few drinks, for me this was a slap in the face, this is what she thought of the people that put her in office, this is what she thought of her fellow Canadians, not smart enough to see through all the crap coming out of her mouth... I'm sorry i come from a military back ground, where honor, integrity, trust, where more than just words, but a way of life...So when someone can not see what the liberal party has done, or has not done i begin to question where their moral values lie... by not calling it out it some how makes you an accomplice to it or you don't think it is worthy of discussion, either way how could someone make excuses for it or for not seeing it... I see that as being sad... and what scares the shit out of me, is that liberal voters are Ok with all of it, and would keep this guy in office for 4 more years with most likely a majority...

Really? 

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng

How about the veterens affairs offices reopening?

Can we do more? Of course? 

Does your analysis of the situation refect reality? Nope. Does it do anything to alleviate any vets who may be suffering? Nope? Is it indeed not really about the vets but more to do with your personal opinion? Absolutley. That is my whole point. When you look for info that confirms your biased opinion you can always find it. Toss in a good portion of anger and viola.

[Army Guy]

11 hours ago, ron Young said:

Really? 

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng

How about the veterens affairs offices reopening?

Can we do more? Of course? 

Does your analysis of the situation refect reality? Nope. Does it do anything to alleviate any vets who may be suffering? Nope? Is it indeed not really about the vets but more to do with your personal opinion? Absolutley. That is my whole point. When you look for info that confirms your biased opinion you can always find it. Toss in a good portion of anger and viola.

WOW, i should be on my knees begging for forgiveness for what the liberals did for us poor undeserving vets..."opened up veterans offices previously closed by the conservative government" what a incredible feat,

I say that because all of their services are available online, including the initial meeting on line via zoom or telephone... It does address a few problems , it helps somewhat with shortage of case workers, to walk through vets the complicated process of governmental red tape...but they are still lacking in trained personal...

What it does not address is lack of mental health experts, where on average a soldier with "severe" PTSD waits almost a full year for the first appointment, Severe PTSD normally means extreme problems with drugs and achol, attempots at suicide... same with medical side of the house, extreme wait times for specialists etc, as most soldiers are fired out the door once they are deemed unfit for military duties....Thanks for your service, good luck in the rest of your life, don't let the door hit you in the ass.  That is not mentioning getting a family doctor which can take up to 2 years and then beginning the long process of getting medical or mental health issues looked at. Does that reflect reality, fuc**ing right it does.

Justin promised to not only fix the finical part that was taken away, because  alot of vets need homes to be remodeled with wider door openings, ramps, new vehs adapted for missing libs.... and that takes money that is not available for any other source than VETS affairs....but also bring back dozens of benefits that were suspended as well, he also promised to cancel the need for vets to take our government to court over dozens of issues, all of them are broken promises... Vets do not have access to workmen's comp, once found unfit for duty your shown the door, one benefit we did have was to be employed in other positions such as training or other specialties ... that practice is gone for the most part...

Thanks for the Vet affairs link, the department itself performs miracles everyday, but their policy is set, by you guessed it Federal government... and if they really cared about vets why are so many law suits outstanding... ya i know it is not based in reality....here is some facts based in reality... suicides' of vets are almost 3 times as much as those killed in combat.. Vets are still fighting in courts for rights and benefits that most Canadians already have access to....

Can we do more, you tell me, you are portraying yourself as the expert, I'm the one that is not facing reality....what else does our veterans need, did you also know that the last soldiers, sailors and airmen to be called vets that are entitled to any war vet benefits are our Korean war vets ... no other conflict that our nation has been in meets the criteria outlined by our government costs to much..... any others are not entitled to the same benefits such as long term care, on free going medical care, family or  survivor benefits once the last Korean vet passes those military long term homes will be converted to regular long term care or destroyed..

I could fill pages up here, but what is the point, I'm the one that is not able to live in reality.. you have got all the answers you need, and like you , most Canadians are way to busy to do any research about this topic, it is sad how nation treats our vets , military members....

Hang you hat on that. Maybe you could atleast do some research before chirping on a subject you know nothing about... I'm i pissed off, yes sir, i am but i earned that right..... but whats embarrassing is most Canadians like you don't give a sweet fuc* it does not bother them in the least....it's not even on the radar...

 

[blackbird]

Since the subject is this error-prone government, take a look at this article about the Liberal government's immigration plan to bring in 1.2 million immigrants over the next three years, falsely claiming it will be good for the economy.

 Diane Francis: Trudeau's immigration scheme is just another way to redistribute Canada's wealth (msn.com)

I agree with the article completely.  The real reason is to bolster the Liberal's ethnic voter enclaves and redistribute wealth.

Out of that 400,000 immigrants per year, 103,500 will be family class (mostly parents and grandparents) and 65,000 will be refugees and protected persons.  These groups will not be contributing to the GDP for the most part but will be an added strain on an already strained health care system and other government services.  Overall, this amount of immigration will likely increase the costs of housing for Canadians and further strain the economy and add to the federal and provincial debts of Canadians.

Edited May 16, 2021 by blackbird

[ron Young]

On 5/15/2021 at 7:34 PM, Army Guy said:

WOW, i should be on my knees begging for forgiveness for what the liberals did for us poor undeserving vets..."opened up veterans offices previously closed by the conservative government" what a incredible feat,

I say that because all of their services are available online, including the initial meeting on line via zoom or telephone... It does address a few problems , it helps somewhat with shortage of case workers, to walk through vets the complicated process of governmental red tape...but they are still lacking in trained personal...

What it does not address is lack of mental health experts, where on average a soldier with "severe" PTSD waits almost a full year for the first appointment, Severe PTSD normally means extreme problems with drugs and achol, attempots at suicide... same with medical side of the house, extreme wait times for specialists etc, as most soldiers are fired out the door once they are deemed unfit for military duties....Thanks for your service, good luck in the rest of your life, don't let the door hit you in the ass.  That is not mentioning getting a family doctor which can take up to 2 years and then beginning the long process of getting medical or mental health issues looked at. Does that reflect reality, fuc**ing right it does.

Justin promised to not only fix the finical part that was taken away, because  alot of vets need homes to be remodeled with wider door openings, ramps, new vehs adapted for missing libs.... and that takes money that is not available for any other source than VETS affairs....but also bring back dozens of benefits that were suspended as well, he also promised to cancel the need for vets to take our government to court over dozens of issues, all of them are broken promises... Vets do not have access to workmen's comp, once found unfit for duty your shown the door, one benefit we did have was to be employed in other positions such as training or other specialties ... that practice is gone for the most part...

Thanks for the Vet affairs link, the department itself performs miracles everyday, but their policy is set, by you guessed it Federal government... and if they really cared about vets why are so many law suits outstanding... ya i know it is not based in reality....here is some facts based in reality... suicides' of vets are almost 3 times as much as those killed in combat.. Vets are still fighting in courts for rights and benefits that most Canadians already have access to....

Can we do more, you tell me, you are portraying yourself as the expert, I'm the one that is not facing reality....what else does our veterans need, did you also know that the last soldiers, sailors and airmen to be called vets that are entitled to any war vet benefits are our Korean war vets ... no other conflict that our nation has been in meets the criteria outlined by our government costs to much..... any others are not entitled to the same benefits such as long term care, on free going medical care, family or  survivor benefits once the last Korean vet passes those military long term homes will be converted to regular long term care or destroyed..

I could fill pages up here, but what is the point, I'm the one that is not able to live in reality.. you have got all the answers you need, and like you , most Canadians are way to busy to do any research about this topic, it is sad how nation treats our vets , military members....

Hang you hat on that. Maybe you could atleast do some research before chirping on a subject you know nothing about... I'm i pissed off, yes sir, i am but i earned that right..... but whats embarrassing is most Canadians like you don't give a sweet fuc* it does not bother them in the least....it's not even on the radar...

 

But it wasn't me who accused the current government of doing nothing for vets. How dare you sit there and tell me and everyone else who cares to read your drivel what I give a sweet fork about. We can all agree that more needs to be done but pushing a narrative that took literally 2 seconds to disprove is both irresponsible and counterproductive. Isn't that embarassing to you?