The history and evolution of Canadian nationalism

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian nationalism has been declared extinct by its present prime minister, but Canada is far from being a "post national state".   After methodically describing the history and evolution of Canadian nationalism through today, this chap concludes that Canada is forever doomed to define itself as "not American" because the newer left-wing brand of Canadian nationalism, just like the previous right-wing, pro-British brand of nationalism,  demands exactly that.   Hating America at some level is essential to this exercise and political framework, and has been from the very beginning.

Will Canada ever be able to define its national identity and place in North America without using the United States as an essential foil ?  

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

I'm unable to watch the video, but I have always agreed with this essential premise of your presence here.   

 

I attribute our attitudes in this front to a kind of jealousy of our neighbours, and an unnecessary one.

 

We can be whatever we like, but we can't be post nationalist and also 'NotAmerikkan'.  That's a kind of a nationalist identity and a negative one.

 

Surely a country that finds ways to work with Cuba, Haiti, China and Saudi Arabia could show a little more accommodation for our half-brother in the south.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

We can be whatever we like, but we can't be post nationalist and also 'NotAmerikkan'.  That's a kind of a nationalist identity and a negative one.

 

Surely a country that finds ways to work with Cuba, Haiti, China and Saudi Arabia could show a little more accommodation for our half-brother in the south.

 

Well, Canadians (and Americans) do find accommodation at the personal and practical level across millions of lives, but the aggregate nationalist identity still demands a purposeful separation and rejection to exist.   This is not just a Canadian attribute, but Canada's history made it much more likely and enduring, and even persists domestically with Quebec.

The Americans initially defined their national identity as fiercely not British, but this gave way to an American nationalism that was no longer challenged or threatened by a declining British Empire, with the United States creating it's own identity and history on its way to becoming a world superpower.   Being British is now just a punchline in Hollywood movies and actors with bad teeth.

[Moonlight Graham]

Will bush_cheney ever be able to define his existence by not hating on Canada?  This is the pot calling the kettle.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Will bush_cheney ever be able to define his existence by not hating on Canada?  This is the pot calling the kettle.

I didn't detect any of that in the OP.  

 

Every post should be like a fresh shower.

[bush_cheney2004]

Most Americans, including myself, do not hate Canada.   If anything, we are guilty of being quite indifferent towards Canada without a complete understanding of how the national relationships have evolved over time.  

It is far more interesting to hear a Canadian (i.e. this YouTube video) explain the evolution of Canadian nationalism from a very Canadian perspective, without the tactical poop flinging across the border for fun and games.

Canada's shift from right-wing to left-wing nationalism is fascinating and consistent with the changing domestic and foreign circumstances it has encountered.

I have long been a fan of J.L. Granatstein's books on the topic but he doesn't seem to consider the anti-Americanism to be a permanent condition, subject to changing policies in the United States.   If America ever were to adopt most of Canada's social and political policies, it remains to be seen if it would dilute and vanquish the anti-Americanism that is currently so popular...and essential.

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

After methodically describing the history and evolution of Canadian nationalism through today, this chap concludes that Canada is forever doomed to define itself as "not American" because the newer left-wing brand of Canadian nationalism, just like the previous right-wing, pro-British brand of nationalism,  demands exactly that.   Hating America at some level is essential to this exercise and political framework, and has been from the very beginning.

IMO early Canadian nationalism was anti-British.  Nationalist independence efforts, for instance, came after WWI (Statute of Westminster) and WWII (Canadian citizenship, our flag) to remove Canada from the grip of the British Empire.

I don't hate the US and I'm a Canadian nationalist and I don't define "Canadian" as having anything to do with "anti-US sentiment", only what is uniquely Canadian compared to the rest of international cultures.  I know far more people born in India or China or Jamaica than America.  What Americans or any other country thinks of Canada should be totally irrelevant.

[bush_cheney2004]

22 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I don't hate the US and I'm a Canadian nationalist and I don't define "Canadian" as having anything to do with "anti-US sentiment", only what is uniquely Canadian compared to the rest of international cultures.  I know far more people born in India or China or Jamaica than America.  What Americans or any other country thinks of Canada should be totally irrelevant.

 

I agree that such should be the case, and it was not my purpose here to drill down to the personal level.  Hell, many Canadians (and Americans) have very differing and conflicting views about their own country regardless of what other nationals may think.

My experiences with many Canadians suggests that many accept a working compromise of not hating Americans at all, while dutifully "hating" their U.S. government with a passion for a host of reasons that conflict with key elements of Canadian nationalism.

More recently, one Donald Trump inflamed this delicate balance by daring to attack and undermine the positive economic compromises and advantages made long ago with those American bastards.  (Other presidents have done so as well, only more diplomatically.)

The COVID-19 pandemic offers the latest example and manifestation of Canadian nationalism with respect to the United States.   With universal healthcare arguably being Canada's most popular and defining national attribute and achievement (compared to the U.S. of course), it is easy to find examples of Canadians admonishing other fellow Canadians about their COVID behaviours and in one case, outright disdain for any Canadians who would dare continue their longstanding and practical snowbird travel rituals to southern U.S. states at this time, even if it perfectly legal to do so.

"Take away their healthcare !!"  (despite being taxpaying Canadians in good standing) is offered as the greatest insult and rejection, as if losing this defining benefit is the most disgraceful thing that can happen to a Canadian.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I agree that such should be the case, and it was not my purpose here to drill down to the personal level.  Hell, many Canadians (and Americans) have very differing and conflicting views about their own country regardless of what other nationals may think.

My experiences with many Canadians suggests that many accept a working compromise of not hating Americans at all, while dutifully "hating" their U.S. government with a passion for a host of reasons that conflict with key elements of Canadian nationalism.

I observe that people in each Canadian province have more or less fairly similar political views to the people in the US states directly below them on the map, with the exception of Quebec.

Ontario and New York are not so different, nor Alberta vs Montana, nor BC vs Washington state (both filled with far-leftists).  I have family that live in rural Canada and they enjoy their Nascar and hunting and are raging racists because of not having a non-white person live within a 45 min drive of themselves, which sounds awfully familiar.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

Right on cue, the CBC/Canadian Press keeps the comparisons and definition exercise going for the CPC (Trump) and Liberals alike (Obama/Biden).

 

What the end of the Trump era could mean for Canadian Conservatives

Edited November 16, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[BeaverFever]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:31 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Will Canada ever be able to define its national identity and place in North America without using the United States as an essential foil ?  

Probably not but who cares?  

[bush_cheney2004]

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Probably not but who cares?  

 

Canadian authors, academics, government (e.g. CRTC), political parties, immigrants, etc.

Edited November 22, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[BeaverFever]

So in right-speak: elitist intellectuals, deep state bureaucrats, globalists, and subversive freeloading foreigners?

[Queenmandy85]

I confess to having grown up in an anti-American household. It really came home to me when a couple of NDP waffelers wrote a nationalistic article and I went through it and changed the name 'Canadian' for 'German' and 'American' for 'Jew' and suddenly it was like reading Mein Kampf. 

I love my country, but after studying the history of post war US, I realised that unlike any world power or empire in the past, the United States and her people are the most generous nation in 200,000 years of human history. They may not always get it right, but not for lack of effort. Two great Americans stand out. Secretary of State George Marshall rebuilding Europe, including recent enemies, and General MacArthur, military governor of Japan brought reconstruction and parliamentary democracy. These two men are not stand alone heros. They represent the essence of American values.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 11/16/2020 at 3:46 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Right on cue, the CBC/Canadian Press keeps the comparisons and definition exercise going for the CPC (Trump) and Liberals alike (Obama/Biden).

 

What the end of the Trump era could mean for Canadian Conservatives

It's interesting to me how Canadian and US politicians have borrowed from each other.  Trudeau's slogan in 2015 was the Obama-esque "Real change!", while the Biden campaign has been borrowing speech lines from people like Jack Layton and has promised to make a cabinet that 'looks like America"...ripping off Trudeau's style.  And Canada conservatives have been influenced by Trump populism.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

It's interesting to me how Canadian and US politicians have borrowed from each other. 

 

Yes, the latest shared messaging by these birds of a feather is "Build Back Better".

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes, the latest shared messaging by these birds of a feather is "Build Back Better".

Yes:

 

The "build back better" thingy is part of "The Great Reset" from the World Economic Forum:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/to-build-back-better-we-must-reinvent-capitalism-heres-how/

This is some odd international governmental social engineering campaign (an excuse to spend money it sounds like).  The Liberal's Chrystia Freeland is one of the World Economic Forum's trustees, as is Al Gore.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum#Organization

These are some of the elites that meet in Davos every year. 

 

[Argus]

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 And Canada conservatives have been influenced by Trump populism.

If you mean conservatives, some of them have. If you mean Conservatives, demonstrably untrue.

[SpankyMcFarland]

This is not a uniquely Canadian problem. Across the world, smaller countries beside larger ones (by population) that share a language (or a very similar one) struggle to find their own identity as something beyond not being the other place. For a century after independence, Ireland identified itself as not British and has only recently looked to other small European countries for better models to follow. One sees the same dynamic in New Zealand, Belgium, Pakistan, Ukraine, Bangladesh, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland (which had two countries not to follow) etc. In Uruguay, they seem to have gotten over their Argentinian obsession and now run a better country than their bigger neighbour in many ways. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

36 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

This is not a uniquely Canadian problem. Across the world, smaller countries beside larger ones (by population) that share a language (or a very similar one) struggle to find their own identity as something beyond not being the other place.

 

It's not necessarily a "problem", just a well documented circumstance.   Canada's version differs somewhat from many of the others listed in that:

1)  The United States sought independence from Britain and British North America (Canada), not the other way around.   French Canada had already been vanquished for Britain (1763).

2)  Colonial Canada rejected voluntary and involuntary overtures to join the United States in preference to "loyalism" to the Crown and all things British.   This also led to internal conflict with Quebec that continues to this day.

3)  Canada pivoted to the United States economically and culturally after both World Wars and collapse of the British Empire, leaving one sphere of influence in favour of another (more viable) one, only to fear becoming "Americanized" by doing so.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

46 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's not necessarily a "problem", just a well documented circumstance.   Canada's version differs somewhat from many of the others listed in that:

1)  The United States sought independence from Britain and British North America (Canada), not the other way around.   French Canada had already been vanquished for Britain (1763).

2)  Colonial Canada rejected voluntary and involuntary overtures to join the United States in preference to "loyalism" to the Crown and all things British.   This also led to internal conflict with Quebec that continues to this day.

3)  Canada pivoted to the United States economically and culturally after both World Wars and collapse of the British Empire, leaving one sphere of influence in favour of another (more viable) one, only to fear becoming "Americanized" by doing so.

 

What is it with you and Canada? 

The particulars don’t matter, e.g. who sought independence from whom. The global pattern is that smaller nations will always struggle to distinguish themselves from larger adjacent ones in this situation. That is how it is. Canada is not especially wicked in this regard. 

BTW French speakers north of the border could see all too well how much respect the US would have for them by the time 1812 came along. 
 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What is it with you and Canada? 

The particulars don’t matter, e.g. who sought independence from whom. The global pattern is that smaller nations will always struggle to distinguish themselves from larger adjacent ones in this situation. That is how it is. Canada is not especially wicked in this regard.

 

What is it with Canadians and the United States ?

Nobody said that Canada was wicked.   The YouTube video is from a Canadian.

 

Quote

BTW French speakers north of the border could see all too well how much respect the US would have for them by the time 1812 came along. 
 

 

...and how much respect English Canada would have for them decades later.

[Zeitgeist]

On 11/29/2020 at 4:37 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

What is it with Canadians and the United States ?

Nobody said that Canada was wicked.   The YouTube video is from a Canadian.

 

 

...and how much respect English Canada would have for them decades later.

Well it's very arguable that English Canada has made financial sacrifices for the sake of national unity, such as billingualism. Nevertheless, most Canadians would say it's been worth it. Most Canadians enjoy the cultural exchange and feel themselves becoming part of a distinctly Canadian culture that is neither solely of British or French origin and isn't an expansion of the United States national identity.

In Canada there's a reasonably longstanding shared history and geography, a shared struggle that has come through wars and internal conflicts.  Right now there's also a popular trend to learn more about Indigenous groups and influences in Canada. There are also challenges to social harmony resulting from recent influxes of immigrants from countries that are less culturally similar to and understood by native-born Canadians. There are growing pains and compromises, but also push back.  This will likely continue for some time as federal policy continues to rely on growth through immigration.

It seemed to work well for a long time for most Canadians, but now we're really seeing the impacts of overcrowding worldwide: pandemics, congested roads, overloading of public services, endangering of species, and other negative impacts on quality of life.  The concerns have moved well beyond cultural conflict.

There's legitimate fear over whether anything close to the quality of life Canadians enjoyed in the past can be maintained.  What is the price of sustainability?   I think those are the biggest concerns facing Canadians right now, because the pandemic has driven home the economic risks of our overcrowded interconnected world.  These are mostly international challenges that, if neglected, will make it harder for Canadians to protect the distinct national interests that most Canadians value.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well it's very arguable that English Canada has made financial sacrifices for the sake of national unity, such as billingualism. Nevertheless, most Canadians would say it's been worth it. Most Canadians enjoy the cultural exchange and feel themselves becoming part of a distinctly Canadian culture that is neither solely of British or French origin and isn't an expansion of the United States national identity.

 

OK, but to whatever degree that may be the case, there are still internal and external forces that dilute and diminish such notions for a Canadian identity and nationalism.  Economic and cultural externalities, a PM's policies that define Canada as a "post-national state",  media references to "North American" attributes, and globalism all present a challenge.

At least one constant remains, even if only for appearances sake...the Americans...a reliable foil for political and cultural distinction when required or demanded.

[Zeitgeist]

Yes it's a strange counterpoint.  I liken it to a much larger rowdier playground.  We like to cross the fence and take in the festivities.  Some stay and others retreat back to more careful Canada.  I think the distinctions can easily be written off as theme park cliches about maple syrup and moose and tortiere, until you spend a lot of time in each place and see how the different dominant geographies, cultural groups, and political ideologies impact daily life.  Those distinctions don't easily go away despite the prevailing conditions outside the country, but yes, Canada often has to respond to those influences.  I'd say Americans often have to respond to conditions within the US.

Life where I live in Southern Ontario doesn't feel much impact from what happens in other provinces unless it cuts heavily into federal policy and money.  Quebec, Alberta, and sometimes Indigenous concerns have that impact occasionally, and trade with the US.  Otherwise it's mostly about The Golden Horseshoe and trips to Muskoka, Georgian Bay, or the Thousand Islands.   Even Ottawa can seem like another province.